The Modes

[canuckguitarist]

Ok, I am familiar with the modes....kind of, but I have no idea how to use them, in solos etc. Here's what I don't understand.

Lets say I'm playing over something in D+. Could I play over it with, say, D Lydian? Even though D Lydian has a G# and D major doesn't?

Can somebody clear this up for me?

Thanks, Aaron

[canuckguitarist]

2 hours, 5 views, that has to be an all time low...

nobody knows????

[smitty]

Ok, I am familiar with the modes....kind of, but I have no idea how to use them, in solos etc. Here's what I don't understand.

Lets say I'm playing over something in D+. Could I play over it with, say, D Lydian? Even though D Lydian has a G# and D major doesn't?

Can somebody clear this up for me?

Thanks, Aaron

Well if every note was the same note as a major scale, it wouldnt be a lydian.

and if you're worried about playing some note that isnt in a major scale, then you're saying you cant play any other modes except for the major scale mode.

If you played a D mixolydian over a piece in D, it will work fine, because a mixolydian has all the same notes as the major scale, but with a flattened seventh.

you could mostly get away with that.(see bit at end)

To get a backing for a piece to have modes played over it, you use the notes of the mode to construct the chords.

In C major the notes are C D E F G A B C. constructing the chords goes like this:

G...A....B...C....D...E...F

E....F...G....A...B....C...D

C...D...E.....F...G...A...B...C

That gives you Cmaj, Dmin, Emin, Fmaj, Gmaj, Amin,Bdim

Using C mixolydian, the scale is C D E F G A Bflat C. the chords are made up like this:

G...A...Bflat...C...D........E....F

E....F...G.......A....Bflat...C...D

C...D...E.......F.....G.......A...Bflat...C

As you can see, this changes three of the chords, and the resulting chords are:

Cmaj, Dmin, Edim, Fmaj, Gmin, Amin, Bflat maj

Now, when you are playing a mode over a backing for a major scale, it sometimes wont work.

In the case of an Aeolian mode, it is a natural minor, and won't work at all. You could get away with using the mixolydian mode over a major scale backing, if you avoided making clashes. In C mixolydian, again, if you played the flattened seventh on the root chord, you would make a C7 chord, which would sound nice, however if you played the Bflat over a G major chord, it would clash badly.

Hope I haven't confused you.

[Johnson]

i hate theory. I mean, it's so important, yet so confusing it makes me want to puke

[smitty]

lol, yeah, and im so just agreeing with you(although i do agree) just to get my 400 posts

[canuckguitarist]

Ok, I think I get it now. The only thing thats confusing is how you wrote the chord construction things....but I think those are just as examples, right?

[Ki swordsman]

you can basically think of playing a mode over the same mode

if your playing in a certain mode.. you can play it over single notes or chords that are made up of the same notes(the same mode)

many chords will work under a couple of modes because those chords can be made from the notes of those couple of modes

that make sense?

[canuckguitarist]

Ok, so if I'm playing over, say a C..Eb..Bb.. chord progression, I can play over it usingany mode that has C Eb and Bb in it?

In this case for instance, could I use C Dorian, D Phrygian, F Mixolydian, C Aeolian and D Locrian?

[smitty]

Yeah.

Why did the chord construction confuse you? I forgot to mention that i was building up chords using the 1st(root) 3rd, and 5th.

to do this, with the written out notes, you just skip one. So. D maj:

D E F# G A B C# D

^....^......^

thats how you make chords like that

[wylde1919]

Here we are wit this again huh! You are right but wrong at the same time Smitty. Guitar players tend to view modes and scale positions in the smae way. What you just described is playing a major scale starting at different places with in the scale. YOu have the notes themselves right but modes are deeoer than just the right notes. To truly make the modes work you have to really have the correct chord changes moving beneath those notes. A good example that I like to use is the difference between major and minor. YOu can hear if a piece is major or minor by the changes. If you take the exact same solo and play it over a ii- V- I it will sound major while if you play it over ii7 flat 9- V- i, it will sound distinctly minor. Another example is if you are vamping over a single chord (i.e. Miles Davis's "So What"). If you are playing over A Vamped E minor 7 you can start out playing in E aeolian (naturla minor) and then switch to an E Dorian. It sounds less dissonant if you stick to the modes that contain G flat and D two places where the chord is "colored" the most. PLease PM if you have questions or corretcions!

[smitty]

What you just described is playing a major scale starting at different places with in the scale.

did i not say about some modes?

i dunno.

[wylde1919]

what you did not mention is that the changes equate into the modes as well that is all i was saying.

[smitty]

lol. ok...........too early in the morning(3pm)

need caffeine,...

[wylde1919]

It's cool that the beauty of a community like this, different perspectives to aide in learning

[smitty]

lol. less modes=better

leave them to vai and satch...

[Ki swordsman]

ya it's good to think of the backing defining the mode not you

like if you play Eminor over a Gmajor backing your not playing Eminor anymore

if the backing changes you change even if you don't literally change shapes

and remember modal tonality, there's certain notes in each mode which make the mode, the characteristic notes that sound distinctly ..lydian together or whatever mode your using

they're the other defining force in mode choice

i think wylde sounds far more knowledgable on this than me though

[skibum5545]

The best way to look at modes IMO is this:

Take your simplest major scale: C major. CDEFGABC, right? Major, in scale terms, is another word for Ionian mode (I think). It means that sequence of notes, CDEFGABC, with C as the root note and chord. Now, what happens if instead of starting on C, you start on D? DEFGABCD is the same scale, but when played over the chord D minor, sounds very different. That is a D dorian scale. That is how modes are derived.

So, you have (starting with the major scale): Ionian, dorian, phrygian, lydian, mixolydian, aeolian (natural minor), locrian, and back to Ionian. All the same notes, but all dependant on what note you solo over. You know what chord to use underneath the modal scale based on the root, third, and fifth of the scale. So if you're in D dorian, you have the notes D,F,A as your triad, or a D minor chord. If you're in F lydian, you have F,A,C, or F major. The scale above these chords changes, however.

If you have a keyboard at home, just play C scales starting on different notes, and whatever note you start on, use the equivalent white key chord underneath to see what each mode sounds like. B is a little weird, because in locrian mode, you have a diminished key in the bass. Gah!

[madcow]

that just blew my mind! and at the same time it made a lot of sense

[wylde1919]

Thanks Ki!

[Gorecki]

Ya, that's more like it Ski, was starting to worry people were going to be so confused they'd give up.

The suggestion of using a keyboard to help understand the obvious was excellent.

Just keep in mind diatonic modes (regular major scales) are alway relative. A C Major scale is C Ionian is D Dorian is E Phrygian is F Lydian is G Mixolydian is A Aeolian is B Locrian. THEY ARE ALL THE SAME NOTES STARTING IN DIFFERENT PLACES!!!

Where it really gets fun is when you start mixing modes, or in the middle of a phrase change from Dorian to Locrian. One of my favorites is for DeMiola type sounds is E Phrygian over E natural minor. Give it a try!

[skibum5545]

y'know what's even better? Altered modes. An Altered phrygian (the "spanish minor") of E F G# A B C D E over an E major is always fun, as is a chord progression of E Maj "Spanish Minor" to FMaj Lydian. Modes are a starting point. Mix it up!

[Paulie]

I've always found it strange that using modes in guitar work is considered contemporary when the modes themselves are taken from 16th century plainsong.