bigdguitars Posted October 6, 2004 Report Share Posted October 6, 2004 not to beat a dead horse I think we all agree somewhat that stewmac is ok. when I first started doing repairs I was so happy to find the catalog, but as I got into the business, I realized there are other options. I am happy with some of the things that Stu Mac sells, but there is room for improvement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kench Posted October 6, 2004 Report Share Posted October 6, 2004 To LGM Guitars I started reading your post but after few lines I realized that it could not be posted for me. So I gave up reading. But my curiosity. I just read it now. It doesn't seem to refute or support my post. You're talking about something else. Totally different things. I agree on most of it, except your passion to disagree, refute me. But I'm not going to talk about it. I may be wrong about some costs in US though, like on making that radius beams. But generally, I still think the same. Yeah the woods are that cheap in Turkey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devon Headen Posted October 6, 2004 Report Share Posted October 6, 2004 Jeremy, you should try to get Hyunsu to tell you where he gets his flame maple. He said once it comes from Canada. He uses that stuff for workbenches, so it must be pretty cheap for him. I also agree with Jeremy on the prices of the new tools. I have friends that work in machine shops. It's not cheap to have custom work done, trust me. Add in all the R+D from StewMac. Personally I have more time than money, so I make as many of my own jigs as possible. If I was like Jeremy or Perry Doing work fulltime, I'm sure I would probably buy from Stewmac. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kench Posted October 7, 2004 Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 Yes I know the custom work can be pricey... and it must be much more expensive in US than in Turkey. The workmanship is a lot cheaper around here. Maybe that's why I find some StewMac prices are too high. If StewMac made their tools in far east, the prices were much cheaper. Even if it was made with the same materials and the same production quality. But then it wasn't "Made in USA". It can also be much more expensive. We are also the distributor of BERGEON in Turkey. It's a Swiss company that makes excellent tools for watch and jewellery making. Well those tools are jewellery itself!! lol... The prices are extremely high as well. Mini screwdriver sets for instance. A Bergeon set can be from $100 to $200, the others are $20 to $50 and Indian screw drivers are just $1.5 for each. Swiss tools are usually 7 to 10 times more expensive than its Chinese and Indian rivals. But the difference in quality is very very obvious. If your work needs quality and if it is going to pay you back in long term, it's best to buy the good one. But both has its own market. Few weeks ago we received on order from one of our clients. They wanted two Beko-Birkenstock desks for their watch repair jobs. The desks came from Germany. Think of all shipping and taxes. Not sure about the exact prices as my uncle who is dealing with that part of our business but they paid nearly $10.000 for the order. For me, they are just desks with two elbow pads. But they are opening a new watch & jewellery store in a very high society. And the image on their customers are very important to them. So they thought it was necessary. My critics on StewMac tools are just on some particular products that I'm having hard time to imagine its price/performance ratio. But telling you again, StewMac is a good shop. PS: The maple and other hardwoods here are coming from Europe and Russia mostly.. and other exotic woods like ebony, zebrawood, rosewood and mahogany are from Africa. Honduran mahogany can also be found. But they usually import it when they get a good order. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhoads56 Posted October 7, 2004 Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 To LGM Guitars I started reading your post but after few lines I realized that it could not be posted for me. So I gave up reading. But my curiosity. I just read it now. It doesn't seem to refute or support my post. You're talking about something else. Maybe you should re-read it, looks to me like he gave you a nice big slap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tirapop Posted October 7, 2004 Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 Just an aside... cost of production and retail price are related, but, not that tightly. Aside from the "what the market will bear" stuff, you aren't paying Stewmac for what it costs to produce. You're paying for them to stock it in their inventory, pay taxes on that inventory, pay their suppliers, develop new products, ship them out, produce catalogues (that they send to us for free), pay employees a living wage to take/ship orders, handle customer service, and earn a profit. Shop around for cheaper alternatives. Make your own tools/jigs when it makes sense. if you think you can produce and market a tool cheaper, go for it. Stewmac is a great resource. I've got Luthiers Mercantile catalogues going back to the '80s. There's so much more available today and at fairly reasonable prices. It's easy to bitch about the prices for tools, but, having the option to buy, for a lot of them, is a recent option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted October 7, 2004 Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 i love the looks of that radius block...as i am not happy with the maple radius block i have now,i will probably buy the aluminum one as soon as i can...it can't help but be a good investment as far as different radiuses go...i only use 2 radiuses...10"(for my fixed bridges) and 12"(for floyds) all other radiuses i use so little i just buy a preradiused board instead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregP Posted October 7, 2004 Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 I'm still figuring out which binding-routing tool to buy... never mind fretboard radiusing. I think it was Perry that said it on page 1-- hobbyists are better off just buying a pre-radiused fingerboard. Not that I've even completed ONE project yet, mind you, but that's what I did right away, rather than fool myself into thinking that I'll be able to properly radius a fingerboard myself. I'm sure some people can... and have... on their first or second attempt, but I know myself well enough to know that it won't be me, even if I HAD a fancy aluminum thingy! Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soapbarstrat Posted October 8, 2004 Report Share Posted October 8, 2004 They don't even list a flatness tolerance for those aluminum things. Maybe because when they usually list a tolerance for "precision equipment" in their catalog, the actual product you get from them does not meet the specs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jer7440 Posted October 8, 2004 Report Share Posted October 8, 2004 I run an edm machine for a living, and I know alumunum extrusion tools are cut on an edm machine. Trust me if stew-mac sells 30 of those units at $116 a piece they have certainly coverd the cost of the extrusion tooling! And as far as R & D, how long do you really think it took some one to sit down at their cad station and draw a 12" rad with a handle on top, give me a break. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devon Headen Posted October 8, 2004 Report Share Posted October 8, 2004 Last time I checked StewMac was a business, not a luthier "food pantry". They need to make a profit. If they think they can sell it for $116 they will. Just like any other business they will maximize profit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhoads56 Posted October 8, 2004 Report Share Posted October 8, 2004 I run an edm machine for a living, and I know alumunum extrusion tools are cut on an edm machine. Trust me if stew-mac sells 30 of those units at $116 a piece they have certainly coverd the cost of the extrusion tooling! And as far as R & D, how long do you really think it took some one to sit down at their cad station and draw a 12" rad with a handle on top, give me a break. Ive had a $4500 quote for a 120mm x 20mm extrusion pattern, plus cost of running the extrusion. I need to order a minium of 100 metres worth of this custom shape, or they (only ally supplier in my state) wont even both doing the job. Estimated cost for 100 metres of material and processing is another $1500. Plus machining... ($13.00 per unit = $1300) Plus anodising... $1400 plus designing and implementation costs ?? plus advertising $500 to start with plus i have to rent space, so allow for that.. storage costs $200?? plus a few will be rooted, damaged, etc, allow for that (five less units) plus my time, at $50 per hour, ive already spend 60 hours on this project, thats $3000 Plus transport fees to and from the manufacturer, anodiser, $400 Travel time at $50 per hour to post office them out as finished items ??? Time spent by myself and partner, talking on phone, describing item, trying to seel them, taking orders ???? So, TOTAL KNOWN COSTS are: $12800 for 95 units THATS $134 each, and we havent started making a profit yet. If im going to dump $13,000 into this project, i want a minimum of my money back, after 50% of goods have sold. Therefore, if its a flop, i can still get out of it with half the 95 units sold. Its expected it will take 24-36 months to sell all 95 units That puts the price up to $268 each unit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdguitars Posted October 8, 2004 Report Share Posted October 8, 2004 I wonder if stewmac makes these themsevles or has a machine shop do them... dramtically changes the cost factor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGM Guitars Posted October 8, 2004 Report Share Posted October 8, 2004 I run an edm machine for a living, and I know alumunum extrusion tools are cut on an edm machine. Trust me if stew-mac sells 30 of those units at $116 a piece they have certainly coverd the cost of the extrusion tooling! And as far as R & D, how long do you really think it took some one to sit down at their cad station and draw a 12" rad with a handle on top, give me a break. Don't have to trust you, I've spent many hours on wire EDM's making all sorts of extrusion tools. Do you do more than run it? Like do the design? do the programming? Do the test pieces? Do the actual setup for extruding? It's not a slam, don't take it that way, but the costs involved are not ONLY running the EDM machine. It takes multiple operations and machines to do this. There are also minimum amounts to order when doing extrusions. Besides, according to 80% of people on this board building guitars in their basement, anything over $1000 is to much to pay for a guitar (ok, not 80% but you see it alot) People seem to forget about things like, wages taxes overhead materials equipment upkeep storage rent etc etc etc etc...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jer7440 Posted October 8, 2004 Report Share Posted October 8, 2004 9 min I realize how much it costs to produce a product. Havin' a bad day and I just felt like ranting a bit. I hope you can see that image better than I can. My screen at home stinks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soapbarstrat Posted October 8, 2004 Report Share Posted October 8, 2004 Oh man, When those Ibanez jem fans see the hot pink version, they won't be able to resist. Hell, make it $216.00 a pop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdguitars Posted October 8, 2004 Report Share Posted October 8, 2004 this is going the route of pickup making... the parts are somewhat cheap, wire, magents and plastic, all cost less than 5 bucks, but can you do what lindy or lollar does? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted October 9, 2004 Report Share Posted October 9, 2004 I run an edm machine for a living, and I know alumunum extrusion tools are cut on an edm machine. Trust me if stew-mac sells 30 of those units at $116 a piece they have certainly coverd the cost of the extrusion tooling! And as far as R & D, how long do you really think it took some one to sit down at their cad station and draw a 12" rad with a handle on top, give me a break. so don't buy it. i sure will though...i fully believe that these time saving tools are well worth the cost most times...you see,some of us don't have the time to make all these little knick knacks for ourselves. i am at work usually around 50 hours a week...and it is not easy work.it is physically and mentally taxing and by the time i get home i find it extremely tough to drag my ass off of my chair long enough to play my guitar as much as i need to to feel good about myself.then about once a week(usually on sunday)i find enough time after the requisite home maintenance to work on a guitar for an hour or two. that is why it usually takes me almost a year to complete a guitar.a tool such as this one will enable me to radius a board out of exotics like bocote in about 15 to 30 minutes i am guessing....sounds great to me. there are a few things i have bought from stewmac that i later found elsewhere cheaper(fret press for example) but for the most part i enjoy those tools. but why complain about the price?it's not like taxes...you can choose to not pay out the money and no one is forcing you to buy one. oh yeah,i forgot....you are not really upset about the price...you are merely making a philosophical point in order to amuse yourself for a few minutes.been there,done that. that is pretty much what i am doing now i guess.and to think of the time i just wasted that would have been better spent sanding down my beast to shape so yeah...give me a break Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soapbarstrat Posted October 10, 2004 Report Share Posted October 10, 2004 I'm probably the only one who finds it odd that they wrote : "Prefer to press-fit and epoxy your frets? It's the perfect one-step clamping caul for the job, saving you time and giving you more consistent results." I mean, who the hell still epoxies frets ? and would you really want to apply clamp pressure to a hollow precision ground piece of aluminum ? Probably not if you wanted to maintain the critical flatness it has. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhoads56 Posted October 10, 2004 Report Share Posted October 10, 2004 Amazingly, it seems some people still epoxy in frets. As you know, there is no real force applied by the tangs, because the slots are wider, so there wouldnt be much clamping pressure being applied, just enough to keep it tight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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