PC Recording Gear

[GregP]

For a total hobbyist, you don't even need the 1204. A Behringer UB802 will provide the same number of outputs, with fewer hardware send/fx/monitoring options (but still not the bottom of the heap), bringing your total expenditure to $150.

You may not 'need' the physical mixer, but trust me you'll want it sooner than later. And, with a card like the 2496 or the EMU 0404, you need the microphone preamps that the mixer provides. It's very important to adjust your levels so that you're not sending too hot a signal to your sound card and 'clipping', and it's far quicker and easier to just grab a knob and turn it a bit than wade through your soundcard's 'mixer' software.

That said, an integrated solution is still a great idea. The DMX 6fire is a reasonable price, though there are a few quirks with it. For a very minimal option, there's the USB version of the audiophile, which has a knob for controlling output level. It's a mediocre card, though-- its limitations make it not as universally recommended as the PCI version of the card.

Greg

[Dugz Ink]

...you don't even need the 1204. A Behringer UB802 will...

1) The 1204 DOES have more outputs.

2) The 1204 has better components... like its 110mm faders.

3) The 1204 doesn't have large plastic sides that let in excessive RFI... like the 802.

EDIT: I thought the 1204 had better mic-pres, but it looks like Behringer is finally putting their "good" mic-pres in the smaller mixers, so that's no longer an issue.

D~s

Edited October 21, 2004 by Dugz Ink

[Biohazard]

Ok thanks for the information. I'm still ultimately confused as to what hoardware and software to go for. I'll worry about mixers later. I need to be making decisions ASAP since one of the reasons for this is to gain experience in this field to give me more chance of getting an audio engineering degree application accepted since I have no qualifications in music/music tech.

[Dugz Ink]

Here's a diagram that a friend of mine came up with... to help newbies set up a small mixer and midi gear. As you can see, Channel #2 is still open; you could plug in your effect pedals or DI to that channel and record your guitar... if you have all of the stuff that's displayed. (If you don't have that much gear, you'll have even more open channels.)

Note the wires that are going from the BACK of the 1204 mixer (ALT 3/4 OUTPUTS) to the Audiophile inputs. These are very important, because they allow you to monitor your computer through the mixer while recording new tracks to you computer (to go with the ones that are on your computer)... without re-recording what is coming out of the computer. In other words, you will be able to hear everything that is going into the mixer, but the computer will only record what is (also) being "sent" to the ALT 3/4 BUS.

And you still have a couple of Send/Return jack that can be used to send audio to effects boxes, compressors, an EQ, etc... then bring the modified audio back into the mixer.

In short, it's a relatively inexpensive mixer, it has decent sound for the price, and it gives you some room to expand your equipment and your knowledge.

D~s

[Biohazard]

Cool, i'm begining to see the advantages of the mixer now. I take it I dont have to have the Roland thing or the keyboard. I also take it that the Audio card can be changed for something else if I find a better one or someone recomends a better one. I can't plug my guitar straight from the out jack to the mixer in jack? I have to DI it first? Do I still have to DI it if I put my guitar through effects pedals (or turn my in built fuzz factory on) first, or would I still then need to DI after the effects. To make this clear would I have to DI the following:

guitar -----------> mixer

guitar -----------> built in FF -----> other effects -----> mixer

Thanks for that diagram though, it's really helpfull. I appreciate the help.

could you possibly just re-phrase that alt 3/4 bit again, I got slightly confused by that. Sorry.

[Dugz Ink]

1) No, you don't have to have the MIDI keyboard or drum machine.

2) Yes, you can replace the sound card with a different audio interface.

3) You can run your guitar straight into the pre-amps that are on Channel 1 or 2, but that won't sound as good as a guitar amp or DI. Some pedals are set up to work like a DI. Check dealer for details.

Also, the mixer has "phantom power" which can be used to power certain types of microphones and DI boxes. I bought the Behringer "Ultra DI" 100 for a whopping $35; it has a ground lift, a pretty clean sound, it's rugged, and it runs off of my phantom power.

4) The ALT 3/4 "thing" is what we call an output "bus"... which allows you to send a different mix to a different set of outputs. This is activated by little buttons that say "ALT 3/4"... meaning "Alternate Outputs, #3 and #4". Meanwhile, your main mix is going to your "Main" outputs... which are Outputs #1 and #2.

So, you can be playing your electric guitar, and singing into a microphone, while listenning to a music track that is playing through the mixer... and only record ONE of those things, by turning on the ALT 3/4 button for that specific source/channel. (You can also record more than one, by pushing the ALT 3/4 buttons on more than one channel.)

NOTE: The Behringer 1202 does not have as many outputs as the 1204. The first two numbers (12) tell you the number of inputs, and the second two numbers (04) tell you the number of outputs... and that naming convention is an industry standard.

And don't worry about asking questions. I ask some really stupid "guitar" questions, like "What's wrong with this Fender neck? It's longer than my Gibson neck." (Nope... I have never owned or built a Fender-style guitar.)

D~s

[Biohazard]

Ok thanks for all that information. you've cleared up the alt 3/4 for me now. I wouldn't go for the 1202 mixer anyway because the picture says 1204 pro and i'll just follow that lol. Should I look at the UB1204-Pro or the UB1204FX-Pro? As for card I was thinking Delta-66? What do you think this is like?

good point, I forgot that I would use the amp line-out to go into the mixer lol. I wouldn't just go straight into thee mixer.

If you don't mind, once we have near enough sorted out the hardware side, can I begin to ask about software, but not right now.

[Dugz Ink]

Should I look at the UB1204-Pro or the UB1204FX-Pro?

The effects in the Behringer mixers are decent, but not as good as the digital effects that come with most mixing software... but those effects aren't as good as the expensive software effects packages that you can buy... and there are some really expensive rack-mount effect units that sound even better... so YOU have to decide what quality you can afford.

Personally, I just record everything "clean" then use the digital effects that came with Sonar. That way, if I don't like the effect, I still have a clean copy of the guitar/piano/vocal/etc.

If you have a mixer, you don't really need the Delta 66... but you could definitely hook it up without a problem... and it really is a nice interface. An alternative is that Audiophile 2496 PCI card, which has analog Ins/Outs, plus S/PDIF (digital format) Ins/Outs.

There are other cards, so it's impossible to say "what's best"... just don't buy any of the stuff you see at Comp USA or any of the other consumer-oriented stores; things like the Audigy sound cards are built for video game players.

D~s

[Biohazard]

Yeah, i'm trying to decide what to buy but it will probably be between companies like Steinberg and M-Audio etc. What software package is the best but at a reasonable price?

[Dugz Ink]

If you are serious about getting into the recording industry, forget about the cheap stuff like Tracktion, n-Tracks, and Magix. Buy software that resembles Pro Tools and Nuendo; this is an investment in your future. I recommend Cakewalk products (like Home Studio and Sonar) because they have excellent upgrade-pricing. You can buy Home Studio, just to get started, then eventually upgrade to Sonar for less than half of the retail price. For instance, I'm about to upgrade from Sonar 1 to Sonar 4 Studio Edition for $119... and retail is $479. (Upgrading from Home Studio would cost $199)

But that's just my opinon, and somebody is sure to tell you that Cubase, Logic, Nuendo, or Pro Tolls are THE ONLY way to go. I thinks that's nonsense. If you want a job in a recording studio, having experience with Pro Tools might be helpful, but knowing how to record and mix properly (with hardware and software) is far more important.

D~s

[Biohazard]

Ok thanks. I was to be honest, thinking between Sonar and Cubase. thanks for clearing this up for me. someone also mentioned Adobe Audition. Whats that like? Or should I stick to the Cubase and Sonar type products. By the way, what versions of these softwares should I go for? For example, there are so many versions of Cubase.

[Dugz Ink]

Adobe's Audition and Steinberg's Wavelab can be used for recording, mixing, processing, and mastering audio... and they can set up and burn audio CDs to industry standards. Both programs have tons of toys that you can use... if you know how.

A lot of radio stations use Audition (or it's predecessor, Cool Edit) for producing commercials; I used Cool Edit when I was in Radio. I liked it so much that I bought it, and now I have upgraded to Audition. It can do multitrack recording and mixing, and offers some of the same mixing tools as Sonar and Cubase.

However, it doesn't handle the "real time" plug-ins as well as Sonar or Cubase. With some effects, you have to apply the effect to the audio, then listen to it, and if you don't like it you have to hit "Undo" and try again. With Sonar and Cubase, you can hear how the plug-in will sound when you press Play plus you can tweak the plug-in's setting while the tracks are playing. I expect Adobe to remedy this in their next upgrade, but that might not happen for 6-12 months.

I don't know much about the various versions of Cubase because I rarely get to use Cubase. You might want to ask other people about the Steinberg products.

I can tell you that the big difference between Sonar PE and Sonar SE is that SE doesn't have all of the new Surround Sound mixing/editing tools... but I don't really need Surround Sound so I'm not upgrading to PE. And I'm willing to bet you don't know enough to jump straight into mixing music in Dolby Digital 5.1 format... so you could probably stick to SE, as well.

Again, if you want a less expensive way to get started, buy Cakewalk's Home Studio for $149. Then you can upgrade to Sonar 4 SE for $199 later. (Do the math; that's $348, and retail for SE is $479.) And you can sometimes buy Home Studio for $130 at Guitar Center. For more details, go to Cakewalk's "Products" page and look around for a little while. (If you click on "Buy It" you can look at the prices, including the current upgrade specials.)

Remember, this is just my opinion. Results may vary. See dealer for details.

D~s

[Biohazard]

Ok thanks very much, I appreciate the help. It seems like I've near enough sorted the hardware and software out now. Just need to decide on whether I'm going to need a new PC because I can see this one not coping well lol.

[GregP]

If you are serious about getting into the recording industry, forget about the cheap stuff like Tracktion, n-Tracks, and Magix. Buy software that resembles Pro Tools and Nuendo; this is an investment in your future. I recommend Cakewalk products (like Home Studio and Sonar) because they have excellent upgrade-pricing. You can buy Home Studio, just to get started, then eventually upgrade to Sonar for less than half of the retail price. For instance, I'm about to upgrade from Sonar 1 to Sonar 4 Studio Edition for $119... and retail is $479. (Upgrading from Home Studio would cost $199)

But that's just my opinon, and somebody is sure to tell you that Cubase, Logic, Nuendo, or Pro Tolls are THE ONLY way to go. I thinks that's nonsense. If you want a job in a recording studio, having experience with Pro Tools might be helpful, but knowing how to record and mix properly (with hardware and software) is far more important.

D~s

I half in complete agreement with Dugz and half in vehement opposition.

Dugz, you seem like a knowledgable guy, which is why I'm flabbergasted that you would recommend Sonar or Nuendo to a guy who has some pretty obvious needs from a setup that do NOT include professional-level video editing (Nuendo) and that cost $1000+.

Things started making sense when you were talking about Cakewalk and Audition/Wavelab, though... and since that's the more recent of the posts, I have to give you credit for bringing your advice back on track.

On the other hand again, it's insane to dismiss products because they aren't known or don't cost much. At the end of the day, price is arbitrary. I can name a few regulars at K-v-R who have ditched Cubase, Ableton Live 4, and Sonar in favour of a little guy named energyXT which costs $39 US. I can name another bunch of people who switched to Tracktion once they realized how powerful and intuitive it is. When it's for a user who has such clear needs, how could such good software be eliminated from the list of possibilities?

And if we ARE on the subject of slightly more expensive apps, many people absolutely love Ableton Live 4, though I admit I don't get on well with it.

Demo, demo, demo.... or, your other options if you're not in the mood to think:

-Get Tracktion. It works. It is stable. It is brilliant. It is inexpensive

-OR, Get a Cakewalk product and possibly upgrade to Sonar (as per Dugz' advice). It's brilliant. It is stable. It is tried and tested. It comes with cool stuff. Did I mention that it's brilliant? Oh, but Sonar costs a bundle, which is a consideration.

-OR, Get Cubase SE. It's more limited than Cubase SX, but I doubt you will run into the limitations it presents. It's capable, industry-standard, and finally stable. It's the middle road for price.

I'm not against any of the other suggestions... but my biggest concern isn't with "what is the best package" but rather "what is the best package for this person."

Greg

[Dugz Ink]

Dugz, you seem like a knowledgable guy, which is why I'm flabbergasted that you would recommend Sonar or Nuendo to a guy who has some pretty obvious needs from a setup that do NOT include professional-level video editing (Nuendo) and that cost $1000+.

Because it's being used by numerous AUDIO ENGINEERS as a SEQUENCER. That's because the digital algorythms (and therefore, mix quality) are on the same level as PRO TOOLS, but it has more features... like outputting in DOLBY DIGITAL 5.1 so you can mix for AUDIO-DVDs (24/96, not 16/44.1) and pre-mix for the new SACDs (completely different sampling format).

There are other programs that also integrate video, including most Cakewalk products. Sonar 4 (Producer Edition) now supports mixing for Surround Sound, too.

Meanwhile, Adobe bought the source for "Cool Edit" (and renamed it "Audition") so they could have a killer audio app to go with their video editing software, Premiere. We should expect to see Surround capabilities in the next version of Audition.

Now, about Tracktion. It doesn't look like the software that is being used at professional studios all over Nashville. And if you walk into a pro-studio (to apply for a job) and you say that you use Tracktion, they'll either try to be polite, or they'll be rude and tell you they don't have time for you. Most producers simply don't have any respect for software that costs less than thier business lunch.

If you have a experience with Audition, Cubase, Sonar, Logic, Nuendo, or Pro Tools, then they might take you seriously. They could still rude, but that's the nature of the beast; everybody wants to get paid for sitting in a studio, so there are way too applicants, and not enough studios. (And the majority of applicants aren't even qualified to be interns.)

If you're going to do your own thing at home, Buy Tracktion.

If you want to run with the pros, you have to use stuff that they would use.

D~s

[Biohazard]

The main reason behind this is actually so I can gain experience to get onto a uni course for Music Technology. Maybe the likes of Sonar etc are worth it.

[Dugz Ink]

Sonar is great, but remember what I said before:

Again, if you want a less expensive way to get started, buy Cakewalk's Home Studio for $149. Then you can upgrade to Sonar 4 SE for $199 later. (Do the math; that's $348, and retail for SE is $479.) And you can sometimes buy Home Studio for $130 at Guitar Center. For more details, go to Cakewalk's "Products" page and look around for a little while. (If you click on "Buy It" you can look at the prices, including the current upgrade specials.)

Home Studio has a LOT of features, so it's not like buying a stripped down sequencer.

I'm not saying thet you HAVE to do this... you can dive right in and buy Sonar 4... but look at the costs that I listed above. According to Cakewalk's web site, you can save $141 by purchasing Home Studio and upgrading to Sonar.

D~s

[Biohazard]

Ok, thanks, but you would certainly advise something like Sonar if it is to gain experience for university courses?

[Dugz Ink]

Home Studio and Sonar (as well as Cubase) work enough like Pro Tools that you can use these programs until you take the college course. Most colleges use Pro Tools; in those cases, you would be able to switch over with a very short/easy adjustment. If the course you take is like so many others, you can purchase a special edition of Pro Tools when you sign up for the course at a special discount. (In those cases, your user license usually expires after either 2 or 4 years.)

Meanwhile, if something happens and you don't get to take that course for a while, you still have something that has a user interface (screens, menus, filters) that is similar to Pro Tools... for a lot less money.

I use Sonar at my house, and my best friend has Pro Tools at his studio. It's pretty easy for me to switch back and forth between the two. There are some differences, but that true of any software.

D~s

[GregP]

Ok I am wanting to record some tracks with my guitar. Also pu tthe bass down (either using my guitar as bass or borrowing one and drums with drum machine). I was originally thinking of an 8 track along the lines of Boss-864. But then I thought I would consider PC recording.

For THIS, I recommended the correct software. Whoever (originally) said anything about wanting to be taken seriously by the pros? Who cares what the studios in Nashville are using? Why would the above quoted person need Nuendo? I still doubt that ANY home users and many studios would need Nuendo.

Pro Tools is the de facto standard. Doesn't make it 'sound' better. They're all still operating at 32-bit, until the 64-bit apps come along. The 'sound' of each will be identical, right from Pro Tools on down to Tracktion.

Now, about all this university and job experience stuff....

I doubt any of them would care even if you HAVE pro tools experience, because you're going to be making them coffee, sweeping the control room, and working your way up from there anyways. Still, you're right that getting experience on other apps like Reason or N-Track or Tracktion won't matter one little bit on your resume.

Back to my original point, though-- I recommended appropriate software for the original question... all this talk of "professional" apps is a whole other discussion.

Greg

[Dugz Ink]

For THIS, I recommended the correct software.

I've already done that.

Whoever (originally) said anything about wanting to be taken seriously by the pros?

Read the entire thread. We talked about how he wants to eventually go pro.

Who cares what the studios in Nashville are using?

Because WE were talking about what PROFESSIONAL STUDIOS use.

Pro Tools is the de facto standard. Doesn't make it 'sound' better. They're all still operating at 32-bit, until the 64-bit apps come along. The 'sound' of each will be identical, right from Pro Tools on down to Tracktion.

You are so clueless. Go play with your watercolors.

D~s

[Biohazard]

Ok, thanks for your help guys.

[GregP]

Whoah the bus, Dugz... I respect you, so I don't want to sling mud. You know way more about the business than I'll ever know, and that's a simple fact. However, it does not mean that your recommendations are the only ones, or that mine don't come from a fairly extensive knowledge base (as a hobbyist only! I'll gladly leave the pro talk to you!), or that I'm unable to use critical thinking skills in order to form an argument. George Bush or John Kerry may be the top politicians in the States, but that hardly makes them the final word in knowledge of politics.

There's no harm approaching a problem from 2 different angles... there's more than one way to skin the cat... all that stuff. I just don't think it's responsible to send a neophyte who was originally enquiring about an 8-track machine to go out and start spending thousands of dollars. <shrug> The real business of learning the recording industry is to learn to record, plain and simple.

Also, I agreed with your Sonar recommendations. It's a great app. I was just defending my own recommendation, which was NOT out of left field, and was perfectly suited to this user's needs.

Regarding audio quality and the maths involved, I'm not clueless at all. It's simple logic and fact. Even professionals will tell you that the sequencer itself does not have a different 'sound'. We're not talking about tape machines here, we're talking about digital.

On a final note-- just because I like to debate differing viewpoints does not mean that I respect you any less. From what I've seen, you've gone out of your way on a personal level for many of the users here. You seem like a great guy. If you'd extend me the benefit of the doubt in the future, you'll see that I'm not half bad, either.

Greg

[Biohazard]

Sorry to almost cause an argument between you both. Thanks for the advice from both of you, it means a lot to me and hopefully will lead me to my eventual goal of recording some ideas and getting the experience needed for this university course. Thanks.

[Dugz Ink]

The real business of learning the recording industry is to learn to record, plain and simple.

I couldn't agree more. A person could learn a lot just by purchasing an old reel-to-reel; mic placement is the most critical skill, and you can't fix bad mic placement with expensive gear. I was just trying to keep up with the topics as they progressed from 8-track to Pro Tools questions.

Even professionals will tell you that the sequencer itself does not have a different 'sound'. We're not talking about tape machines here, we're talking about digital.

But (and this is a BIG "but") (not to be confused with a big butt... which can be a good thing... up to a certain point... but I digress) not all software manufacturers use the some algorythms for calculating resampling, which is an important step that happens during the "mixing" of digital audio files. The same is true of the "effects" that are applied to digital audio files. (I put those words in quotes because both are virtual; they are merely mathematical calculations that are applied to the digital audio data.) Some software (especially Steinberg products) use killer algorythms, and final mixes that were created with Cubase/Nuendo will actually sound better than their competitors.

Now, to provide balance to that statement: The average pop-music fan is so clueless that they think MP3 is "good enough" for reproducing the original quality of a song/mix. So, most people will never notice the difference between something that was mixed in Nuendo and something that was mixed in n-Tracks.

You could say that I'm just being an audio-snob... and you would probably be right.

D~s