Help Idiot Build Metal Rig!

[Drak]

I need y'alls help.

OK, situation:

For the past 7-8 years, I've really just been playing blues/jazz/country/country rock/some 80's euro-pop sort of music, with as few interruptions between guitar and (vintage) amp as possible, a lot of times just a cord. And I've been enjoying it that way. Real Tube overdrive, TC Electronic chorus/flanger/pitch modulator, Boss reverb, that's usually at the MOST what I use, although I have several other pedals, 2-3 wahs, echo, an original floor POD, some other stuff.

But I want to build an intelligent, compact, screaming metal rig now, and I am pretty clueless as to most of the high-tech stuff out there. My interests are usually in other areas, so I've never really bothered to investigate the possibilities of a high-tech environment metal rig.

I'm usually a vintage-amp kinda guy, but I do now have the foundation of a good metal rig, but I need help making intelligent choices to round it out and bring it all together, and bring myself into the 21st century, and I humbly and gratefully ask for your valued assistance.

Here's what I have for the foundation so far:

1 Rocktron PRO Gap pre-amp

1 Rocktron Pirahna pre-amp

3 Cabs:

1-15" sealed-back bottom-ported bass cab loaded with an old alnico '60's EV SP-15 speaker reconed for guitar by WeberVST. It rocks buttum.

4-10" Marshall 1965 slant top

2-12" cab that can be open or closed back (for this, probably closed)

1 Original (first year they came out) edition floor POD (almost brand new, I've rarely used it)

Lots of vintage amps. Combo's, Heads, etc.

Guitars? Bwahahahaha!!!!!!

Here's what I don't have:

No rack (1/2 rack I assume will suffice?)

No MIDI controller

No rack mounted effects processor (can I use POD?)

No stereo power amp

No equalizer to put in front of pre-amps (I've read it's always recommended for maximum metal results)

My goals:

To have a rig that's as easy as possible to tote around without having to own a moving truck to haul it all. I'm 43 now dammit.

To have a system that's easy as possible to break down/set up

If I can, to use one or two of my own amps to make this work instead of buying a stereo amp, but I will cave to popular opinion if I need to buy one.

To also make this system possible to direct in to my computer for recording whenever I get my sh*t together on that front (maybe this winter?)

And anything else you see that I haven't listed.

I think what I'm trying to build is 20-year old technology, (MIDI/rack) but that's OK.

Allright, here are a few questions/comments...

OK, fire away! MAGGOTBRAIN! RETARD! GEEZER! DUMBASS!

But I know you guys know craploads more about this than I do, and I don't want to have to go thru a lot of gear to find a system that works, so I'm leaning on ya here.

Also, I've read that if you have 2 pre-amps, you can run them parallel with different settings for bowel-disintegrating thick monster-killing distortion, but I don't know how you go about hooking them up to do that. My common sense would tell me that thats where the stereo amp comes in, run one pre-amp into one channel and the other into the other channel? I've no idea, but I DO have 2 hot pre-amps made by the same company, so that has to help somehow.

Maybe I should include some information about the amps I might be using if I could use mine to good measure...

My first choice would be my Traynor heads, which are basically old Marshall JTM 45's in design. 2 are older mid '60's YBA-1's, VERY early models. I also have 2 late 60's YBA-1's too which would probably be more appropriate since they aren't as valuable as the really old ones. All these amps have incredibly large PT's and OT's, like AMPEG SVT sized trannies.

Also several different silver face Fender combos.

I have more amps, but these would be the logical choices to go with a setup like this (I think)

Thank you thank you thank you for any help to help me build my (deep voice)

...~METAL RIG!~....

[westhemann]

i have the heaviest metal sound i have ever heard,bar none,and you can get the same basic sound in many different ways.

i use the marshall mode 4(as you know),but the only reason i use it instead of others is just because i wanted the 350 watts.

but all i use it for is a clean base,i don't use the in amp gain,as i find it rather weak.i use a boss metal zone for that.

i think the 2 most important parts of my sound are 1) the 412 marshall vintage 1960 cabs.they are quite bottom heavy,yet clean.and 2)the seperate gain.

so i guess my suggestion is to use an amp head that has a crystal clear,crisp clean sound(you really don't want warmth),and add your external gain...i think the rocktron will do it for the gain.

you can use the 4/10 you have...but the cab is very important.

i wish i could show you in person how to tweak the amp eq to get it heavy,yet still articulate...it is a quite subtle thing

[daveq]

I'd also like to hear what others have to say on this.

I mainly play metal-type music (I don't know if satch, vai,... are considered metal but that's the style I like to play). I'm using a Marshall Valvestate stereo chorus amp with the following gear:

1. POD Pro (got it for about $325 on ebay) - awesome, awesome, awesome unit! This is probably enough for me right here.

2. TC Electornic G-Major. I mainly use it as a low cost ($400) harmonizer although the delay and reverbs are incredible also.

3. BBE 362. A must have in my opinion.

I have some other assorted gear laying about but these are the units that I use daily. I can get a real sweet sound now thanks to the POD Pro. The BBE and G-Major are icing on the cake.

Don't take this as THE way to obtain a metal sound/rig but I'm very happy with it. I'm looking forward to hearing what others are using and possibly what order, settings they use if you care to take it to that level.

[1nf1d3l]

im guessing youre going for a big shreddy kind of sound, so ill do what i can.

i dont know about the preamp question so ill leave that to someone else, but no, you dont NEED a big stereo preamp, im sure it would be a nicety. you could probably get away with the amps regular preamp too. most of the "metal" sound you speak of comes from EQing and a few select overdrive/distortion mixes. your POD probably has most of the stuff you need in it, but i dont know sh*t about PODs, having never used one. another load of youre sound would of course come from your guitar's pickups, im guessing a high output humbucker would be what you need. but since you asked for a high-tech, here i go

ill take a bit of a clue from KK downing of judas preist, since youve got a similar set up as it is

rack:

rocktron pirrhana

POD(i dont know sh*t about these, remember, but im guessing you can either mount it or run it through the loop) with an MIDI controller

Tuner

EQ(you could do a pedal too, but a rackmount is probably best)

head:

something HIGH GAIN, like a peavey, line 6 or marshall jcm or something with a good clean channel to run a dist box through(or you could use your POD for that)

Floor pedals:

wah, cuz wahs rock and you can fiddle to get em to add to your sound

Dist box, like maybe a line 6 uber metal or a DOD death metal, these are both nice dist boxes

a big multi effect, cuz multi effects rule. doubt me, i dare you.

and then the big thing for sound, EQ

for a super shreddy sound, you can scoop mids. this will always sound "metal" but it has too many downfalls at times

or you can boost the mids and highs, like i am currently. this will give you a GREAT sound if you do it right.

speakers:

412s are almost required. but, if you want to, im sure you could get away with a 410 and a 115. this is more youre choice than anything

i guess thats all i can think of off the top of my head

and since everyone else is doing their rig, heres mine

ibanez rg421 into a peavey bandit(or my marshall, but the peavey sounds way better) with an EQ of low-6 mid-7 high-8 on "modern" style. and sometimes i throw an external eq in and a flanger, but not always. yea, its that simple, and it sounds plenty

Edited December 18, 2004 by 1nf1d3l

[daveq]

That reminds me - boosting the EQ before the preamp section seems to help quite a bit. I boost 2KHz about 6- 8dB. The EMG-VMC does a great job if you want to do this onboard.

I only scoop after the preamp section - scooping before distortion just seems to mud the waters (this may not apply to everyone - just my opinion). I'm currently using two BOSS GE7's for this but plan to get a rack EQ unit soon just to get more crap off the floor.

[1nf1d3l]

That reminds me - boosting the EQ before the preamp section seems to help quite a bit. I boost 2KHz about 6- 8dB. The EMG-VMC does a great job if you want to do this onboard.

I only scoop after the preamp section - scooping before distortion just seems to mud the waters (this may not apply to everyone - just my opinion). I'm currently using two BOSS GE7's for this but plan to get a rack EQ unit soon just to get more crap off the floor.

i stopped scooping, it sounds better if you boost teh mids and the highs, more beef to it i think personaly, the shred should come from the distortion more than the EQ, but hte EQ molds youre sound

[westhemann]

That reminds me - boosting the EQ before the preamp section seems to help quite a bit. I boost 2KHz about 6- 8dB. The EMG-VMC does a great job if you want to do this onboard.

I only scoop after the preamp section - scooping before distortion just seems to mud the waters (this may not apply to everyone - just my opinion). I'm currently using two BOSS GE7's for this but plan to get a rack EQ unit soon just to get more crap off the floor.

i stopped scooping, it sounds better if you boost teh mids and the highs, more beef to it i think personaly, the shred should come from the distortion more than the EQ, but hte EQ molds youre sound

i agree with dave.. the effects loop gives a cleaner scoop.and scooping out the mids makes the sound heavier even with slightly less gain,which is very necessary to get the defined note articulation needed for say,"alter of sacrifice " style riffs

BUT it depends alot on what style of metal you play.

[Drak]

Good tip about using the VMC Dave, thanks. You know I can cover that base easily, and that would be great to have it on-board, I love on-board controllability!

I also have a Boss GE7, but my 2 concerns were:

1) It's a floor pedal, and I want to keep the floor stuff to a dead minimum if possible, I would somehow prefer to have the EQ as part of an effects processor in a rack-mount, and use the MIDI to control it. Does that make sense in a MIDI world?

2) It's a grapic equalizer. Most of the comments I've read seem to point towards a parametric EQ as recommended more often.

[westhemann]

when i used an eq (before i had the mode 4...it has plenty of scoop),it was a graphic eq

[MzI]

heres the most basic metal rig i can think of, jcm 800 head, tube screamer, eq pedal

thats it, nothing more. nothing less

for me, i use a mesa single rectifier and thats it, i do need to get a eq but other then that straight into the amp no messing with crazy moddeling stuff to crazy and easy to mess up for me, i like simple

MzI

[BLS]

A nice tube head!

If you have the money an ENGL Powerball is all you need

if you dont then there are plenty of alternatives..

Crate Blue Voodoo

Peavey 5150/6505 (the combo might be a good idea for you)

Peavey XXX (Not as heavy as the 5150 but alot more versatile, Exodus uses XXX's with a tubescreamer)

JCM 800 with a Proco Rat (Morbid Angel uses a setup like thsi)

JCM 2000

ect..

and a BBE Sonic Maximizer is a good addition

The Peavey 5150 is basically the standard for an affordable metal amp bands like Unearth, Darkest Hour, Arch Enemy, Atreyu, The Haunted, In Flames, Killswitch Engage, Machine Head, All That Remains, Children of Bodom (Something Wild), Dark Tranquility, Exhumed... you get the point.

[Drak]

What I asked is how to put together the system I have.

Thanks!

[bowser]

also, as wes was talking about his setup, he didn't mention his EMG's (which Drak would already know anyway), but it is something that you don't want to forget about

[JohnnyG]

drak, first things first id just like to point you to guitargeek.com. not because im not gonna give u any advice but (if you havnt already looked) then its a great place to see not only what some people have in their rigs but also how they have them set up with regards to FX order etc.

with regards to the sound if you wanted a good heavy overdrive type sound that was natural and crisp sounding then best thing to do would be to just chuck a booster pedal before one of your tube amps. for heavy slayer esque grind i wouldnt have thought that those amps have enough gain (anybody who knows differentlly please kick me) so it may be a case of running them a bit cleaner and then haveing a distortion stomp somewhere. you could splash out the cash for a mesa of some sort tho i dunno if you want to do that or infact need to.

FX pedal wise its a matter of what you want it to do.

i have no idea what the POD will do but alot of people swear by them so it may be worth spending a wek or 6 just playing with that

the GE-7 could be useful for going between a good lead sound and then stomped in to scoop the mids for a heavy riffing sound.

maybe playing with some other xtomp boxes to see if theres anything you like. Boss DS-1 or a metalzone. maybe an EH Big Muff Pi.

as for moddingthe amps to go straight to the power amp section, yeah it is possible but tbh if i had nice vintage amps id rather leave them as they were and just plug into the front.

theres probablly alot more useful advice i can give thn that but i only just got up so im not firing on all cylinders yet lol

hope its helpful and go check out guitar geek. if ur gonna start becoming a gear slut then its your best friend

[westhemann]

also, as wes was talking about his setup, he didn't mention his EMG's (which Drak would already know anyway), but it is something that you don't want to forget about

sure...but a good passive is almost as nice..

[westhemann]

heres the most basic metal rig i can think of, jcm 800 head, tube screamer, eq pedal

kind of off the subject since i am sure drak doesn't want to drop almost $2000 for a head...but i have considered doing the same thing except with my metal zone distortion and a rackmount eq

the rackmount eqs give much more control without getting in the way

[westhemann]

by the way drak...before my marshall stacks guess what i USED to use to get my metal sound?

fender twin reverb II

ran it as a head through a crate 4/12 with celestions

it was almost as nice as my marshalls...the only reason i say ALMOST is because the clean on it is a little too warm...it muddies the gain a tiny bit

[Drak]

Twin Reverb II, wasn't that the Paul Rivera designed Fender series?

Switchable clean and hot channels?

Back to subject.

You guys WERE giving me METAL rigs. But BASIC metal rigs.

What I should have stressed a bit more clearly was the MIDI controllability factor along with the METAL rig, hehehe.

That's where the Rocktron units come into play.

Ultimate versatility out of one compact rig is what I'm talkin' boud here.

So that's the other part of the equation I probably didn't stress enough.

And the ability to take the same rig and plug into a computer and do some recording with it.

The kind of rig that a really well-versed cover band guitarist would need (Priest to Madonna to Prince to The Cure to Megadeath, all at the tap of a MIDI footswitch) THAT's what I'm talking about, and that's what the Rocktron units (along with the right processor, which would have chorus, flanger, delay, equalizer, all that stuff|) would offer.

Kapischness?

[Maiden69]

Here I go!!!! \

Guitar ... NOT A TELE Bwahahahahaha! Loaded with nice high gain Seymour or what ever, my preference here will be EMG's by the way, 60 or 85 /18 on a mahogany or swampash/hard maple top. (I just found out that the ash I got gives massive low end).

Wha if you like

Pre Amp Any of the rocktron''s pre you got, get a midi pedal and get the bible like booklet that shows how to set it up. Once set up, you don't have to mess with it anymore.

AMP. Like you posted, I know you got a lot of heads and combos laying around, I will suggest the cleanest sounding one, one that got no personality of it's own.(Most people don't like modelers or preamps because they tend to sound different on different amps, I'm in the way of building one amp for my GNX1).

Speakers . Ditch the 15 for this, the 4x10 on top of the 2x12 shold be more than enough for most venues. If you want t ouse the 15 try it and see how it sounds, it takes a lot more energy and wattage to move a 15" cone, hence response will not be as crisp and tight as the 10 and 12's.

This is my suggestion with what you have with an addition of the Midi pedal and a different style guitar. Rocktron are nice and I like the sound out of them if you learn how to tame them, The POD will be good but if you go that route, it will be in addition to the GAP going thru a clean set up.

[StreamLine]

i'd just like to add my thoughts to this thread....

i personally prefer non-digital rack amplifier section. that is to say i do not personally think midi pre-amps sound great, even the tube ones such as the mesa triaxis.... i stick by the analogue tube pre-amps for racks.

while yes, a midi pre-amp offers you more options for sound you could hope to ever use... well, are you actually gonna use more than 3 of them? my pre-amp gives me 3 channels which i find enough to cover classic rock, shred, death metal, jazz and prog with a little eq tweaking.... there's something about all those digital pre-amp that doesnt sound as natural, to my ear anyway..

secondly, i dont think 'rack rig' doesnt always mean a fridge sized installation producing the most processed tone ever running through 25 digital units! i prefer rack rigs as it means i can get decent digital delay and reverb units mounted as part of my rig (currently saving up for those!) and have some effects without having a battlefield for a pedal board, and of course the fact that i can match a pre-amp section to a power amp section of my choice..

also as far as power amps go, mesa is the way to go IMO. no problems (unlike marshalls...), super clear tone (especially with GT 6L6 Classic tubes!) that lets you have as much gain as you like. my fifty/fifty can be heard 20 metres outside my house when both channels are on 6... and with the 'cut power' mode i can practice with a great saturated tone with my old folks asleep next door! the relative simplicity of my rig means great natural clarity, which even my friend who swears by pre-DSL marshalls admits to hearing!

the guys covered pretty much everything else, so i hope is of some use!

and btw this is my rig, just awaiting reverb and digital delay units - Digitech WH1 - modified wah - Metalhead Electronics 'elan II' pre-amp (5 12ax7's! ) - Mesa 50/50 - 4x12 cab with Celestions (great speakers IMO too!)

Edited January 1, 2005 by StreamLine

[JohnnyG]

wayhay, im not the only person who dropped a wad of cash for an origional whammy loland drak, now that i see what ur trying to do with all the midi stuff then ill point you to stephen carpenters rig on guitar geek

RIG

its completelly different now, this is from 99 but it uses midi controlled stuff quite nicelly i reckon.

i also think he has a really good pallet of tones and sounds that he uses so it gives an idea of whats possible.

if u notice he actually has 2 deperate midi preamps and then has an AB box at the front of his rig. that may be a good way for you to use both of yours. he does still have 2 seperate power amp heads in that rig and the majority of it is rack mounted tho it could be a good place to start

[Drak]

Thanks all, maybe we're getting somewhere now.

As silly as a lot of those harmony central reviews are, when I was reading the Pirahna and PRO Gap reviews, there was actually a lot of good information as far as recommended accessories to go with it, and I was trying to crystallize -that- type of information here, like the best MIDI controller and WHY it's the best, the best signal processor (the chorus/flanger/delay/eq box) and why it's the best, although I realize everyone has their favorites, I wanted to hear from some guys who had tried out several different processors, different MIDI controllers, recommendations for good signal chains, that type of thing, that's where I was going with this.

That's a no-brainer. I've built several extremely HOT HOT HOT guitars with pre-amps and Floyds built in, the guitar part of the equation is the -least- of my concerns, that base is well covered.

No Teles.....InDEED!

Then again, I can build a pretty damn hot Tele too, hehehe...

[Drak]

Hey Streamline, tell me about that Digitech whammy, I always wanted to try out one of those things.

I hear they are quite the insane whammy. Are they worth it, or are 90% of the sounds things you'd probably never use?

I have a Bad Horsie and a Teese RMC-1.

[JohnnyG]

drak, the digitech wh-1 is awesome. yes it does the high squealy thing but its great for so many other things. if you can get hold of my iron lung by radiohead then listen to the intro, great use of a whammy but not overlly much

here's a post where i gave a full run down of what it can do and my opinion on the whole origional vs reissue argument. URL=http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=12892&hl=wh-1]HERE

as for the midi stuff, ive seen the rocktron patchmate cropping up in a fair few rigs. i dunno anything about prices or whatnot but i know that as well as stephen carpenter, rob flynn of machine head uses one and quite a few others. have a look

also it may be worth looking into some of the new line 6 modelling pedals. from what ive heard they're pretty nifty and with an expression pedal you could have loads of sounds covered really easilly

[StreamLine]

i paid around $400 for the WH1 and its well worth it!

tracking is second to none on the whammy mode, 1 and 2 octave plus is great fun, and can be actually put into good use in playing, more so if you play instrumental guitar orientated stuff... like listen to satch's cool #9!

the stuff you can do with the harmony section, like when it mixes your 'dry signal' and then adds 1 octave below signal is really cool, basically guitar and bass playing together! of course with the drop 1 octave you can do pretty convincing bass sounds, which is cool too!

all harmonic intervals are covered, and the tracking is very good with single notes, but chords 'confuse' it

there's also the 'detune' mode which mixes dry signal with signal tahts been altered by a few cent.... = chorus like effect, pretty neat too.

my only negatives about it are that a) it has a 'wall wart' adapter whammy mode sounds better put before pre-amp distortion, and harmony mode sounds like proper harmony AFTER pre-amp section as opposed to just being like 'double stops'... so its like a bit of choice..

you can still have proper harmonies with 'clean' channel and use the whammy, as thats what its best for IMO... and just get the eventide for 'intelligent' harmonies after the pre-amp

how much would you use it? hmmm, i think its fair to compare it to a floyd rose. you love it or hate it, and even if you love it you only use it as much... but when you do....

EDIT: johnnyG, you've hit the nail on the head in that thread. the actual reason for it all is the chip that specially written for digitech by a specialist software company... but for whatever reasons the contact was torn up and digitech put their own COPIES of the original chip on wh2, wh3 and wh4...

Edited December 18, 2004 by StreamLine