Help Idiot Build Metal Rig!

[Scott Rosenberger]

Drak, if you decide to go with a Macintosh computer, let me know. They're my bread and butter, I can offer you sugestions and help you get what you need so you don't end up buying way too much hardware and spending way too much $$$. Hell I can even bring my recording rig out so you can check it out for yourself. It fits in a small backpack

[Drak]

Well, hahaha! it's been a busy 12 hours!

I looked up Dave's G-Major, and BBE thing. I'd like Dave to comment on the BBE, I can't quite figure out (by what I've read so far) it's usefulness in a Metal rig. Dave?

I have investigated parametric EQ's already (Furman and Ashly)

I looked up several different MIDI controllers. (Rocktron and Behringer mainly tho)

For everything, I would look it up at Harmony Central reviews, then E-Bay, then a retailer or some other net source of information (if the item is still in production) then sometimes at GuitarGeek if it was listed to see who was listed as using it.

Some comments on my story so far:

As we all know, Harmony Central reviews can be a complete joke, but one thing I noticed with the rack gear, the people commenting were much more well-spoken and could actually voice coherent opinions, this crowd was more intelligent, had precise comments, and used a lot of comparisons for reference. Maybe not perfect, but better than a lot of crap on there. They were reviews I could use.

2) The G-Major did not get very good reviews, seemingly it is quite tempermental and likes to break down a lot if transported to and from gigs. Basically not too roadworthy I guess, but fine if left in a safe place. Good marks on the features, really bad marks on stability.

3) The Behringer 1010 has the -single- -worst- -owners- -manuel- ever written for a piece of gear, hahahaha!!! Man, -EVERYONE- blew intestinal chunks at that owners manual.

I read only one review for the Behringer that compared it to the Rocktron MIDI-MATE (which I am also considering) and that guy liked the Behringer far more than his Rocktron Midi-Mate, so score 1 for Behringer, but I ain't looking forward to hooking that muther up, I can tell you that!

But everyone DID say, once they got it figured out, it was a very good sturdy unit, just a bitch from hell to get it operational.

4) I'm starting to look up more processors like the Intellifex and the G Major. Still working on those.

And the Behringer seems like a well-liked choice for the money too, you just gotta get past the setup/calibration/assignment stages to actually start to enjoy the thing.

[Alexander]

This might be a really stupid thing to say, but if your head has an fx loop, can't you run the preamp into the fx return? As I understand it, the fx loop sits in between the pre and power amp sections. Please correct me if I'm wrong!

[Drak]

No, you're absolutely correct, and as I sit here thinking about what you just said, I think you just gave me the answer I've been looking for!

My amps are all old vintage amps with no effects loop in them. We're talking heads from the mid and late '60's.

BUT, I bet all the guys posting reviews at Harmony Central all have -newer- amps that DO have an effects loop built in, and PRESTO! there's the answer I was looking for!

Thanks Man, you just turned the light on for me.

[Alexander]

Holy crap! Nobody's more surprised about that than me!

Happy I could help! I was completely ready to get shot down in flames for being a noob!

[JohnnyG]

drak (and alexander i a suppose lol)

it is quite easy to get an FX loop out into an amp however you have to take a few things into consideration.

the major thing is what kind of FX loop you want. the simplest is just 2 switched jacks that mean you can just insert stuff between the preamp and the power amp.

the other would be a parralel loop where you can mix the FX loop into the main signal.

then there's the whole thing about whether you want to buffer it, have an FX loop send volume control etc etc.

in truth you only need to think seriouslly about that stuff if you are wanting to use the amp with the preamp and the FX loop. for what you want you could probablly just get away with having a single input jack that goes straight to the power amp. when you plug into it you disconnect everything fromthe preamp.

you may need ti have another gain stage before the signal hits the phase splitter tho it depends entirelly on the size opf the signal from the rack mounted stuff. if its line level then i think itd be ok tho id really recomend looking into it.

in short, the actual process of adding an FX loop is pretty simple. HOWEVER, deciding exactlly what you want it to do first is impoirtant. whether you just want to use the amp as a power amp or normal or whether you actually want to have a working FX loop that can be used with the amp as ordinary.

hope all thats helpful. heres a link to a page that explains alot more about FX loops. its from london power amps and they build the things so i think they know what they're doing

http://www.londonpower.com/FX-faq.htm

also with regards to the computer set up. mac vs pc hardware wise i dont really know anything about since ive never used macs. im going PC but only because it'll be easier to build for me etc. basically as long as you have a powerful enough processor with a good amount of RAM and a good soundcard for recording then you'll be fine. like erikbojerik said, the majority of time recording will be playing with the software so just sio long as the hardwares up to scratch you'll be fine.

[Drak]

Like, in my head, I'm trying to figure out whether I'm going to wind up with a mostly stereo system, or a mostly mono system with some stereo components tossed in.

That's why when I referred to adding effects loops to amps, I used the plural, as in adding effects loops to TWO amps, so I could run a true stereo system using two basically identical heads if I didn't have a stereo rack-mounted amp in the end.

Does this make sense? Hahaha!!! I'm sorting it out.

Let me dish this out and see how it falls:

1 Piranha (mono, yes?)

1 Pro Gap(mono, yes?)

These two, each taking one channel, is the 'start' of a stereo system, correct?

1 Parametric EQ (I believe mono, so it would plug into, say, the Piranha effects loop?)

1 Effects Processor (-gotta- be stereo, right? )

Then on to 1 head amp connected to one cab each, so it basically seems to be a stereo system.

But it could also be built as a mono system too, right? I'm balancing the need for a stereo setup, trying to get a grasp of the situation.

So you see, I'm sort of sorting out the stereo vs mono issues for hookups, and how many MIDI controlled effects I'll have.........

.......3? (Pirahna, PRO Gap, Intellifex Processor if that's what I buy, that's 3 MIDI effects, but parametric isn't MIDI, but I could possible hook it up to be controlled by MIDI somehow?

I'm also looking at maybe a compressor/limiter, and maybe a --stereo-- parametric EQ, and maybe a BBE, and keeping it to 6 rack spaces or less.

Bwahaha

[Primal]

i think about $1200(the computer alone was about $800)

it's a dell dimension 2400 with the intel pentium 4 processor...

You really can go MUCH cheaper if you build your own computer. I urge you that if you are tech savvy and comfortable enough with it then you should build your own. If you want I could give some prices and example of what you might need (minus the specialized sounds cards, etc) to build a perfectly good recording computer.

[BLS]

I looked up Dave's G-Major, and BBE thing. I'd like Dave to comment on the BBE, I can't quite figure out (by what I've read so far) it's usefulness in a Metal rig. Dave?

I know im not Dave, but I do have a BBE and can explain what it does.

It has two knobs, one "Low" and one "Process" what the low does is tighten up the low end, the process basically makes your highs smoother. It dosent sound like much but for $50 used this unit can do wonders for your sound, it kinda gives the amp this "scooped" sound but still has the ability to cut through in a live mix.

[JohnnyG]

wes, in my opinion the whole stereo thing is a bit pointless. you could maybe have some fun with panning delays or stereo chorus/flange but would you be doing alot of that. with the preamps you could just dothe whole stephen carpenter thing i mentioned and A/B between the two for different sounds

[Drak]

Did you mean Drak, not wes?

Well, that' why I'm asking!!!

If it's pointless, then tell me and it's toast...just like that <snaps fingers>

The reason I started down the path of stereo is because of all the talk about getting a rack-mounted STEREO power amp, that right there is what started me thinking about stereo, I was taking it for granted that that's what you were -supposed- to have for a great rig.

Like I said, I'm clueless and in need of information.

[westhemann]

wes, in my opinion the whole stereo thing is a bit pointless. you could maybe have some fun with panning delays or stereo chorus/flange but would you be doing alot of that. with the preamps you could just dothe whole stephen carpenter thing i mentioned and A/B between the two for different sounds

man you keep confusing drak and i

no you don't need a stereo rig...but those mesa 50/50s are stereo ..i have never done it that way though

[JohnnyG]

jesus sorry guys. i dunno why i do it lol.

nehu the point. personally i dont think that stereo is so great. you can get perfectlly good mono power amps and unless ur planning to do funky stuff with stereo effects then it just seems like a bit of a waste of cash.

i mean if you're playing somewhere large and you want to do funky things then would it not probablly be easier to go through the PA

imho a mono amp would be fine and then just have both the pre-amps set up so you can choose which one to run into the power amp and just usethem both for different distortion sounds. have one set up in a loop with a mid scooped EQ and the other set up with a differnt distortion tone and different EQing for leads. then having different distortion sounds on each combined with the different EQing on channels would give you a pretty huge variety of sounds

[Drak]

Well, I might find that I have better use of the extra rack space for something else, since you can set the Piranha up for all kinds of different presets and just MIDI between them, so the PRO-Gap would be a little superfluous at that point.

Number one, that a single rack space is high rent real estate, cuz I'm gonna fill that suckuh UP! Hahahaha!!!

Thanks Johnny for the advice. Like I said, you're talking to someone clueless, I'm just going on the information given and running with it. Someone tells me rack-mount stereo power amp, I'm just off and running with that information.

So stereo is out. Good. Less to worry about. Cheaper. More rack space for other goodies. Only need to add effects loop to one amp.

Me like.

[Maiden69]

I just got here, my god a lot of ideas and discussions going on here!

1st of all I didn't post my last post being mad or nothisg, I guess that the reason that it wasn't read wes that I started hitting on the beloved Teles, but hell, Is my fault that I don't like them , but bones might be a good choice.

To answer this question, or comment Drak

So I'm still fighting the question of needing a rack-amp. Someone tell me please why having a rack-amp is worth the money I'll have to spend on it compared to using the heads I've already got right here? I'd love someone to break that one down for me.

In the previous post I recomended using an amp that sounds great clean, that doesn't add any color to the guitar. The reason this is so important with the use of the processors is that they are made tu emulate certain carachteristics of "brand" name amps and effects. I will be getting one of this if the car amp I got don't work for me,

http://www.carvin.com/products/dcm.php?Ite...=DCM600&CID=PWA

http://www.carvin.com/products/dcm.php?Ite...DCM1000&CID=PWA

the reason is that they reproduce what is going into their input 100% accurate, not like guitar amps that like I said before add their own flavor to the guitar.

But if it sounds good for you this is all that matters.

[Drak]

Bones???

Maiden, have you never seen my METAL AXE???

But to your point, if I modded my amp to have a buffered effects loop in it, wouldn't that go straight to the power tube section and thusly produce the tone of the pre-amps AND give the nice warm tone of tubes in the power section?

I mean, I LIKE my old tube amps, that's why I have 'em in the first place, so unless there's a really good reason NOT to use them, I'd like to go that route.

I'm gonna check into it, maybe one day I'll get a rack-amp, but I'd rather dump the bread into other rack items and just get one of my amps to work with it, I think it would rock.

And I'd like the excuse to install an effects loop into one of the amps and give me a little experience numbchuckin' around with my amps anyway.

PLUS, that gives me TWO MORE RACK SPACES to play around with.

[1nf1d3l]

dang man, you are gonna have LOADS of fun with a rack, just look at how excited you are, its almost like you got that pony you always wanted for christmas... damn my parents....

[Maiden69]

well Drak, I don't rally know, you can try and see how it sounds. I got a Crate MX120R and it has a FX loop, but I found that the GNX1 and even the cheap AX1g that I had sounded better thru the guitar input than thru the Loop. But when I plug the GNX1 straight to the PC, the sound is much better, I do have to lower the gain a bit, on the guitar amp it sounds less driven somhow, and in the PC is thick. I guess that you will have to experiment on that one and find out what you like.

BTW, hows all that snow that just fell on your backyard, I guess that painting time has come to a hault, and is time to explore new horizons with this rack thingys,

Keep me updated of your findings on this.

And NO I haven't seen you metal axe, can you post some pics!

[Drak]

well Drak, I don't rally know, you can try and see how it sounds. I got a Crate MX120R and it has a FX loop, but I found that the GNX1 and even the cheap AX1g that I had sounded better thru the guitar input than thru the Loop. But when I plug the GNX1 straight to the PC, the sound is much better, I do have to lower the gain a bit, on the guitar amp it sounds less driven somhow, and in the PC is thick. I guess that you will have to experiment on that one and find out what you like.

Well, I'm going to do a lot of asking around, sounds like something for the Ampage guys maybe...maybe it's not a good idea, I'm still clawing my way around uncharted waters really.

BTW, hows all that snow that just fell on your backyard, I guess that painting time has come to a hault, and is time to explore new horizons with this rack thingys,

Just real light flurries so far, absolutely nothing to even sneeze at so far, you getting real snow? I could actually count the flakes as they blow around around here.

But DAMN it's COLD. I mean serious cold, colder than it's been all year now.

Did you read the post above where I said I'm putting all the guitar stuff away for the winter? I did it last night, everythings' socked away now, I'm really concentrating on this rack stuff until I get it done. Winter project No. 1.

Keep me updated of your findings on this.

Just keep reading this thread!

And NO I haven't seen you metal axe, can you post some pics!

I'll have to toss a few up on fullserve and post them somewhere else to keep this thread clean of pics (until the rack is done, hehehe )

Been looking at Parametric EQ's and Compressor/Limiters the past 1/2 hour.

[JohnnyG]

Drak (see i got it right )

mainden 69 actually has a good point. a Rack Power amp will add very little colour to the signal whereas the power amp section from a vintage amp probablly will

in truth i cant really see how it would make things more difficult tho but its just something to bear in mind. however imho i dont think that the colouring would be a bad thing and hell just save urself some cash atm. maybe once you've got the whole thing up and running with one or two vinatge amps set up as power amps with the FX loop used then see if you can borrow a rackmounted amp from somewhere to try out. it could all of a sudden add clarity and prescision to your sound or maybe its too clinical and crisp. probablly worth seeing before you drop the greenies.

oh and ampage is a good place to ask about the whole FX loop thing. usual noob posting rules apply, dont be too much of a muppet or they'll eat you alive lol

[daveq]

Sorry - I haven't been back to this in a while.

The BBE unit is something that you can certainly go without but I think for anyone who has heard the difference - they would never go back. It's just like lifting a blanket off of your amp. It adds a certain clarity that is very hard to explain but is very easy to hear. I think they are used more often in recording but I know plenty guitarists use them in their live rigs also. They are only about $100 new at musiciansfriend - money well spent in my opinion. Basically, what it does is re-arrange the order of the bass and treble to compensate for the difference in travel time for the waves. In the end, the human ear is treated to a crisp, clear sound compared to without it. It really is a huge difference.

I was also scared by the reliability reviews on harmony central for the G-Major. Maybe it's because I don't move mine very often but I've had zero problems with it. I actually had some rain fall onto it for a night (left a window open) and it didn't mind. Their tech support people are great at answering messages quickly if you felt comfortable with them giving you a truthful answer on this.

The thing is, for $400 I know you're not going to get a better effects unit. Not even close. If you wanted to spend more, maybe the G-Force would be a better pick. For that price though - that thing is amazing. I don't normally like to be so opinionated but I really feel strongly about this unit. Check out their site if you are at all interested.

[Maiden69]

Well we got some real snow here, lot of thick flurries, I ain't from the north so for me it's a lot of snow, the floor is all white in about 20 min so far. And there was about 2" on top of my car this morning. All iced up took me forever to get it out.

Yes I will be reading this thread since it's close to what I'm doing with the exeption of the midi, I know that I can add a midi pedal to my GNX1 but I don't know if its worth it.

[Drak]

Thank you Dave.

See, my idea was that Metal tones don't have tons of clear glassy highs anyway, so why would you bother to clean up the high end if you were doing scorching metal songs, but I think I understand, and maybe I'll check one out.

It probably would help me out because I do play country stuff, and part of my rack system is going to have a compressor (often used in country) so the BBE seems like it would get along well with that, so I might be checking one out, thanks!

I think for the processor I've settled on the Rocktron Intellifex, seems it gets good solid reviews, and I'm into Rocktron territory already anyway.

I had already figured that your G Major probably stayed in a permanent location most of the time, and I had guessed that yours probably worked fine for you.

Most all the complaints came with moving it...bounces, hot to cold, etc.

-Very- nice reviews for the effects themselves, but it got dogged pretty badly on the reliability section.

One cool thing about rack gear, it's no problem to find most all of this stuff used in excellent shape.

[Gorecki]

For what it’s worth the rack I use is quite dated but still nothing I’ve played with compares to it…IMO

ADA MP-1 Preamp

Digitech DSP-128 MultiEffect

Alesis Quadraverb MultiEffect

BBE 362 Sonic Maximizer (always at ~25%)

Furman P8 Power conditioner

NADY 501 Wireless

ADA MC-1 Midi controller

All programmed to switch to what I want when I want it (which takes a while to get dialed in).

The MP-1 uses Groove Tubes and has a mid-eq mod as well as my amps. The MC-1 midi controller is on its last legs and I expect to replace it with the Behringer controller eventually.

I use to use a Mesa Strategy 295 and it was nice but let it go in favor of an amp no one has ever heard of. Nomad (not Mesa’s) made by a guy in Berkeley CA named Eddie Spitzer who had closed his doors years ago now. In any case, I use Groove Tubes religiously.

For a very long time, this rig got me though many shows in San Francisco / Oakland area during the metal years with one board on the floor. For a while, I had someone changing the sounds for me backstage so all I had to do was play. Ahh...those were the days!

For what it's worth Drak.

[daveq]

I wish I could explain the BBE thing better. It doesn't help one type of music any more than another (at least I don't think it does). My car stereo (in my last car) had a BBE feature on it and I left it on full time. It's just amazing when you turn it on - it really sounds like you've lifted off tons of pillows and blankets off of your amp and you can hear with perfect clarity. Even if you think you have a great sounding amp, these things will take them to another level. It's not an EQ, not a tone circuit - very hard to explain. All I am left with here is that it really does make a big difference. I would recommend it for any type of music.

Maybe Lovekraft can explain it better? I don't know if he has one but I have a feeling he knows all about them.

Here's a quote from the BBE site:

BBE High Definition Sound technology is not an effect, but restructures the signal in such a way which allows speakers to more correctly and faithfully reproduce the signal. The best analogy for BBE technology is like eyeglasses for your audio system.

Electric and acoustic guitars - have sparkle, clarity and definition. BBE sound processing brings out the harmonic complexity and bite significantly increases cutting power. Each note of a chord becomes more distinct. Brings guitars out of the "mud".

BBE site

Edited December 20, 2004 by daveq