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Corrective Nuts And Zero Frets.


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Masterminds, you're wrong again. Obviously pressing the string down behind the nut will affect tuning - it is effectively shortening the string length between nut and bridge, and thus raising the pitch. It's no different than turning the machine head.

What Greg said, which is perfectly correct, is that if you have the same distance between nut and bridge, the string tension at pitch will be the same, regardless of the distance between between tuners and nut, or bridge and tailpiece. This is a function of physics - a string of a certain dimension, at a certain tension and a certain length, can only vibrate at one frequency when plucked.

The thing which confuses some players (understandably) is that most guitars with long strings between nut and tuner or bridge and tailpiece feel looser than those with short distances. This is because there is an amount of 'give' in a string which allows it to stretch elasticly along it's length. More length = more 'give', but the tension of the vibrating section of string remains the same, if it didn't the note would change in pitch.

Please don't pressume to 'educate' people on this stuff if you clearly don't understand it yourself.

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Exactly, Setch.

PS, I was editing my post to add that second paragraph of mine when Setch had already responded, so he's not repeating information. Independently, we both said exactly the same thing.

Greg

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The string length on the opposite side of the bridge and nut can affect how much the string goes out of tune when you fret, and it does affect how much physical distance you have to travel to bend a note up 1/2 step. I'm not saying MM is totally right, or communicates clearly. But if you have GregP's 2 foot long headstock and a trapeze tailpiece, you'll have to bend the string farther to get the same 1/2 step pitch change. It's NOT because the tension is different, just because as you bend the string, more of the string's overall length shifts from behind the nut/bridge fulcrum to in front of it. And it doesn't take more pressure or effort to bend the string either. It just has to travel a little farther.

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That makes sense, Frank. I'd be willing to modify my statement-- there is, indeed, an effect of the extra string length, but not as it refers to tension, which is what people have been suggesting lately. Some people believe that the actual string tension will change depending on headstock.

Greg

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Another standard formula will show you that this force decreases in NEWTONS (that's the measurement of a force, more newtons more weight et.c...) as you move towards the center.

Tension in a string, chord, wire, rod, hair,... bloody well does not decrease towards the center. the tension is the same in each and every sectin along it's length, provided that it can move freely (as in a string not locked or hindered at the nut). where in hell are you getting this from.

frequency x length x 2 = square root of ( tension / mass per unit length)

mass per unit length is dependent on the material the string is made of, and so, is fixed for a certain type of string.

so the only variables to determine the tension in a string, or part of a string, are frequency (pitch) and length.

now when calculating this crap you can interpret a guitar string as two separate "systems"; one in front of the nut and one behind the nut...we'll leave the bridge out of it, ya? Becase the string can move freely back and forth (horizontally), as previously stated, and is only supported in a single point (the nut), the only force that can be introduced by the nut is an upward (vertically) one, depending on the headstock break angle. A perfectly vertical force can never "introduce" a force in a horizontal direction sooo, string tension on the left side of the nut (headstock) remains equal to string tension on the right (fingerboard)...

the only thing that's different is the length: nut to tuner on the left, the scale length on the right; as a result of different lengths, there's a difference in frequency. The fingerboard part 'll have a certain pitch (eadgbe); the shorter headstock part 'll have a significantly higher pitch.

if you push down on one part of the string, tension goes up, tension in the other part has to be equal so it goes up as well, pitch changes...simple.

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AHA! Now I see why one of my guitars has strings that bend MUCH easier than on the other guitar. String distance between nut and tuners is much longer regardless of same scale length etc. This guitar also has strings going straight thru the nut whereas the other guitar has angled headstock and angled strings from the nut to tuners. That might add a little to the tension factor a little bit.

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That's what I meant by the 'give' of the string.  The tension is still the same, but the perceived tension is less.  Bends seem easier, but you need push further to raise the pitch the same amount.  In short, the guitar feels 'looser'.

yesss that's just the elasticity of the string material coming into play, you're effectively stretching the string. obviously it's easiar to stretch a 100 mm long piece of steel to 105 mm, than it is to stretch a 5mm piece to 10 mm.

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Makes total sense.

The only thing the ANGLE should have to do with it though is how easily it allows the string to pass through the nut. If there's a tonne of friction I suppose it could 'bind' up, but assuming a state of zero or at least low friction, the angle won't play into it.

Greg

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I think the real problem here is that masterminds has taken high school physics class and things he can explain everything about the way an electric guitar works. He doesn't care about what people who've been playing, working on, or building guitars for many years think because he's got education :D.

For that matter, he didn't even understand his high school physics class right. Tension in one member is NOT two forces, it is one force. That tension causes two reactive forces, the forces exerted by the bridge and tuner, but it's still a single force in compression or expansion. The two forces exerted by the bridge and nut are not tensile, the tension is one force existing only in the string itself.

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it's about reading comprehension,really.you can read all the books you wish by all the greatest minds in the world and still misunderstand them,simply because your mind does not have the innate grasp the writer does of the principles involved.

too often you will see this scenario...a person who wishes to be a great intellect,yet fails to understand his(her) own mental strengths and weaknesses.

a wise person will always defer to another's knowledge in his(her) own area of strength,when that wise person is in an area of weakness.

but maybe masterminds is still in the process of learning about his(her) areas of strength and weakness.

anyway...sorry for all the flowery wording.i am sure there is an easier way to say what i just wrote. :D

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it's about reading comprehension,really.you can read all the books you wish by all the greatest minds in the world and still misunderstand them,simply because your mind does not have the innate grasp the writer does of the principles involved.

too often you will see this scenario...a person who wishes to be a great intellect,yet fails to understand his(her) own mental strengths and weaknesses.

a wise person will always defer to another's knowledge in his(her) own area of strength,when that wise person is in an area of weakness.

but maybe masterminds is still in the process of learning about his(her) areas of strength and weakness.

anyway...sorry for all the flowery wording.i am sure there is an easier way to say what i just wrote. :D

Uh, like "give em a rope and they think they're a cowboy"? :D

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it's about reading comprehension,really.you can read all the books you wish by all the greatest minds in the world and still misunderstand them,simply because your mind does not have the innate grasp the writer does of the principles involved.

too often you will see this scenario...a person who wishes to be a great intellect,yet fails to understand his(her) own mental strengths and weaknesses.

a wise person will always defer to another's knowledge in his(her) own area of strength,when that wise person is in an area of weakness.

but maybe masterminds is still in the process of learning about his(her) areas of strength and weakness.

anyway...sorry for all the flowery wording.i am sure there is an easier way to say what i just wrote. :D

Uh, like "give em a rope and they think they're a cowboy"? :D

i think you nailed it.why don't i have that gift of "short and to the point"? B)

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Time to post a new sign in this thread:

Please Don't Feed the Trolls

:D I give up!

I'm all about helping a new member if I can. This is pretty over the top and pointless. Not understanding concepts- well I guess all of us are a bit fuzzy on some subjects. Ranting, rambling, speaking giberish, telling everyone how un-edjucated we all are. Well sometimes makes for good plucky comic relief.

MM- If you read this, Stop posting formulas that don't work. If you want to do your homework :D (test it first), then post. Some people new to building would use your formula and F_up their project B) . That is not cool at all. You know what I am talking about. Enough said.

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MM- If you read this, Stop posting formulas that don't work. If you want to do your homework  :D (test it first), then post. Some people new to building would use your formula and F_up their project :D . That is not cool at all. You know what I am talking about. Enough said.

Why don't you head over to physicsforums.com and see what they think? I already discussed this with them and posted to this thread, so they'll know what you're talking about.

It's a simple function of two-dimensional physics that a force in one dimension cannot have an affect in any other dimensions. A tension force on a string runs in the dimension of the string. The nut does not have the ability to create forces in this dimension, except one force, which is friction. Therefore the nut cannot possible cause tension on a string.

Sorry if people think I am wrong - but I side with physics, not with misinformation. I find it sad that no one here will bother to confirm this undeniable fact with other physicists, and continue to work from false information.

Edited by MasterMinds
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Why don't you head over to physicsforums.com and see what they think? I already discussed this with them and posted to this thread, so they'll know what you're talking about.

Why don't you go to physicsforum.com and stay there, your ideas sound good on paper, to somebody that have a PHD in physics or engeneer, but they are rather impractical in a guitar.

I'm mean, if I want to build a guitar I go to PG.com, if I want to be the next Einstein or Edison, I go to physicswhatever.com

Are you interested in making guitars, or into makig arguments and acting like a troll? You have several luthiers already explain you how and why are things done, and still don't get it!!!

What a waste of time!

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Your problem, as I can see it, is that you take valid scientific points and then come to errant conclusions with them. No one said a nut can cause tension on a string. And I for one don't work with false information. Has anyone asked how old you are yet, or is that against the rules?

These are the posts that are making people think you're trolling. Because while there's nothing specifically wrong with this post, it contradicts your other posts. If you go poking around other boards to get them to agree with one piece of your argument, everyone loses. Especially if they aren't familiar with guitars and guitar playing. They wouldn't know how much a note goes out of tune when you squeeze it. They probably also wouldn't know that the G string is the worst offender, both because of the altered tuning relationship with the B and because it displays the widest pitch change:tension ratio. You're the one wasting everyone's time with your headstrong attitute, all the while claiming we're all refusing to see it your way. I'm done with MM in this particular post. If there are any other valid points raised I'll be back.

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Sorry if people think I am wrong - but I side with physics, not with misinformation. I find it sad that no one here will bother to confirm this undeniable fact with other physicists, and continue to work from false information.

You've done it MasterMind.. you've debunked centuries of lutherie knowledge.. if only we were open minded enough to see.. but alas we are sheep.. blindly following those who have BUILT GUITARS BEFORE. :D

The discussion further back about string tension.. The NOVAX fanned fret system is interesting in that argument. The tension on a les paul tuned to pitch is less than a strat tuned to pitch because of the 3/4 inch difference in scale length.. While MM is arguing about force in the 2 dimensional world.. Scale length is the biggest factor of string tension. That's why 5 string bassists prefer 35" scale lengths over 34. Or why playing Drop D feels mushy on a paul.

You can make the string longer by moving the ball end away, or the tuning post away but that really doesn't affect the tension. You'll find that the string tension remains the same as you lengthen the distance from post to end-pin, because it's the tension across the scale length that determines pitch. If the tension were any different, the pitch would be different.. that's pretty simple. It all has to do with the scale length. The novax necks play incredibly well because the lowest strings have the same "tension" as the high strings given the even spread across the multiple scale lengths.

The compensated nuts work because they affect each strings individual scale length in minute values to correct for intonation problems.. so back to the reason this whole rediculous post started.. a compensated nut BEHIND a zero fret will have no impact because it's the fret that sets the scale length. And in turn a zero fret is not a replacement for a compensated nut because it does nothing to compensate for each strings individual scale length needs. If people playing zero-fret instruments have less intonation problems then great.. there's no need for a compensated nut. But the two really have nothing to do with each other.

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I agree 99% percent with that. In fact, I was about to add a cheery, "Well that about sums it up!"

But it's about the wording of the last phrase. It's not that the two have 'nothing' to do with each other but simply that a zero fret minimizes the change in pitch, compared to poorly crafted nuts that appear on so many commercially available guitars. Therefore, a player may find that with a zero fret, the intonation difficulties inherent in guitars (in general) are minimized to the extent that a compensated nut isn't needed by that particular player.

A zero fret doesn't compensate. That much has been proven in this thread; however, in some cases it can accomplish the same goal as a compensated nut, which is to reduce the impact of fretting a note upon a string's pitch. To that extent, the two things are related and therefore have something to do with each other. :D

Greg

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I agree 99% percent with that.  In fact, I was about to add a cheery, "Well that about sums it up!"

But it's about the wording of the last phrase.  It's not that the two have 'nothing' to do with each other but simply that a zero fret minimizes the change in pitch, compared to poorly crafted nuts that appear on so many commercially available guitars.  Therefore, a player may find that with a zero fret, the intonation difficulties inherent in guitars (in general) are minimized to the extent that a compensated nut isn't needed by that particular player.

A zero fret doesn't compensate.  That much has been proven in this thread; however, in some cases it can accomplish the same goal as a compensated nut, which is to reduce the impact of fretting a note upon a string's pitch.  To that extent, the two things are related and therefore have something to do with each other.  :D

Greg

I don't know man.. it says right here in my physics bok that.... :D

That is a very fair statement and I agree completely.

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According to philosophyforum.com, it's impossible to agree COMPLETELY with something. I've started a thread about it, if you want to check it out.

Greg

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wow this has gotten to be quite an interesting thread...

something id like to point out to mastermind is that in the above post where you mentioned the example of bending the string behind the nut and so forth...its a completely irrelevant point because the tension of the string evens out across the entire length of it...which is exactly WHY it changes pitch when you bend the string. if you want to get into the area of physics so badly, all the nut does is put a rough limit on the fundamental frequency generated by the string, it doesnt put tension on the string or any of this other hooplah i hear going around here. if anything, the strings putting tension on the nut..but i see no relevance in that point.

and since age was used as a measure of worth earlier, ill admit up front that im 17 and probably younger and definitely alot less experienced and knowledgeable than alot of people here :D

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