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How To Make A Guitar Sustainer System, Tutorial


Galaga_Mike

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Welcome ebenezer shred to sustainerland :D

I got your message, and here's a reply.

Yes, you can make a driver from a pickup. First you will need to cut all the coil windings out of the pickup leaving only the bobbin, magnet and pickup slugs...ie remove all the wire.

Then, you will need to "block up" the lower half of the bobbin leaving 3-4mm of space at the top to wind the driver. This can be done with plastic, wood or cardboard.

Here is a pic that I posted on the main thread to describe what I mean by this.

pickupdriver2.jpg

Wind as per my pickup driver with a few hundred turns of 0.2mm enamel insulated copper wire till you get about 8 ohms or a little less.

Join us on the main sustainer Ideas monster thread for ongoing help Sustainer Thread, now up to 102 pages and 56,000+ visits and still growing. You will find that this topic has been discussed a little more.

Also, for a pictorial tutorial on winding my pickup driver, which is the same as this idea really, without the pickup, see psw's sustainer pictorial tutorial thingy It is not that hard really to constrauct another bobbin on top of a pickup as I have done so that you can have both a driver and pickup in one unit. If you are content to just have a driver though, building it out of a pickup will make it easier to mount on a guitar and can be recomended over a stand alone driver for most people.

Hope that is clear enough for anyone thinking of doing this. A single pickup guitar (bridge only with neck driver) is easier to wire up too because the bypass function wont be necessary. Remember that the sustainer only works with the bridge pickup and all other pickups need to be bypassed.

Thanks for your inquiry and look forward, with other keen sustainerettes in helping you with your project... pete

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could you use the little gem amplifier for the amp part of the sustainer? or would i need to use the fetzer ruby?

Best to join in at the main thread for these questions (link in post above) as this is a tutorial section.

To answer the question however...the fetzer / ruby was put forward and widely used for this project. The LM386 provides the power, but the transistor preamp (the fetzer) is mainly there to prevent loading on the pickups. It also provides a little more gain and impedace matching for the ruby power-amp section.

I personally use a different type of preamp that has a lot more gain and there could be many different circuit options that will do the same job. The fetzer / ruby is simple cheap and small and is so ideal for this situation. It has shown to have worked successfully too, so that's a plus.

I am still looking for a better circuit and may one day be able to provide a diffinitive version especially for this project. For now, the F/R will do the job...hope that helps...now see you over at the other thread, some interesting stuff going on there and we are now at 103 pages, check it out! ... pete

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  • 4 weeks later...

first off, i'd like to congratulate pete on the most excellent work and research done...

i do have a couple of questions:

1. why isn't the original thread a sticky?

2. would it be ok (albeit very time consuming) to link-archive the most important aspects/developments in the thread in this one?

3. has the mixed mode (present in some sustainiac systems, i believe) been discussed on the thread?

once again, great work pete!

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Thanks flood...and welcome to sustainerland...

First off, please come and join us over at the main thread...I know it is 113 pages long and 1600+ posts, but I don't expect anyone to have read it all...

Sustainer Ideas...page 113

This thread, and this section, is really a reference, not a discussion and if we were to discuss things here it would get out of control. I don't wish that the "conversation" be too broken up by multiple threads...

That said, the sustainer thread exists on the web at a few sites. There is this thread, the main thread, a sustainer sounds thread, a thread on the making of my guitar's driver...and then there is are old threads on Aron's stompbox forum, one at Guitarnuts forum. A recent thread at Aron's on a particular circuit being discussed lately and occasionally I send out calls to attract people to the thread who may be interested to lend their skills to the project...

The remarkable thing is that the thread has been going so long and in all the years has rarely been off the first page of the electronics section, if not on the top of the list. At anytime (day or night) I see people reading the main thread...

As for a sticky...I'm not sure if it wouldn't get lost up there. That is a decision of the administrators. I'm not really fussed as anyone who joins in will be directed as required or their questions answered. People can and do feel free to contact me personally too. I think it is the activity, enthusiasm and tenacity of all the people involved (there are, and have been a few...it's not just me!) that keeps the thing so alive.

Maybe it needs it's own forum...you could have sections on circuits, driver designs, installations, music...errr. Actually...such an offer was given, but I think the real secret to it is the Project Guitar Community as a whole...it is pretty unique if you look at other sites. Some are brand specific or have their own niche...and they have a particular comunity "profile"...but here everyone is welcome and treated with equal amounts of respect. This is very important. Personally, I am in my forties...but I have had kids who have made remarkable contributions to discussions. PG also has a very wide global reach. Currently we have me in Australia, others in the USA, Scotland, England, Hong Kong, Belgium...all actively discussing the project and it is simply amazing to me that this can be done so well...

Anyway...you see, as usual I digress (know wonder the thread is so long :D )...so...

1) I don't know!!

2) I did try indexing it, you can view threads by one line for each post though in options... It really is too time consuming and a lot of it is "conversation"...for a while it was practically a blog about my work...now it is far more practical...but, lately it has turned to further development of the next level of sustainer technology....

I would like to do it...I even tried to get people to help around page 50, but now a best of is probably the way to go (page 108 was good...and around the 30's was a particularly good time as I recall!). I really have in the back of mind that something more definitive may come of it and that the main thread would only be of historical interest to how we got to a particular point...though I have thought that for a long time, so perhaps it will never happen!

I definitely would not like to add it to this one!!! This is not my thread, and while G'mike made a valuable contribution at the time it was posted...he did so without making a sustainer quite how I would have like to have presented it...it didn't work properly. It is one attempt on how to do it, but it is far from definitive. I really think you need to discuss things or follow the main thread a little to be up to speed on this...

3) we have discussed it a little...do they still offer mixed mode? Anyway...I think my normal mode is mixed. By altering the output capacitor (which could be switchable) you bias the circuit for more or less treble. I use a 100uF output capacitor and as a result notes on the lower strings and lower frets of the g string "morph" to a harmonic an octave above. This is different from the harmonic mode which suppresses the fundumental and will drive harmonics an octave, fifth or sometimes two octaves above...as a harmonic. A Higher output cap (220-470 uF) will drive the lower strings at their true pitches, but it will struggle to drive the high strings. Note in G'Mikes tutorial here he had trouble or couldn't drive the high strings. (he also didn't cover the tricky installation problems either, amoungst other things...)

So...yes, but it has just passed by a little. If no one asks, I forget to mention it...so there it is, just for you!

Now...please, join us over at the sustainer thread and introduce yourself...even if you just have an interest you can contribute to taking this thing a little further...in the very least you can feel a part of something...

I'll take your ideas on board though, and see what I can do about a best of...ok :Dpete

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^^

thanks for the detailed reply! i'm still struggling to get through the whole thread, and am very interested in sustainer systems. i own a fernandes revolver pro 7, which you probably know is now discontinued. anyhow, i really admire the lengths you'Ve gone to, and the amount of effort you'Ve put into this. i hope you can start producing it sometime and make some cash on it (i'm an ayn rand follower to a certain extent, so screaming "capitalist pig" at me really doesn'T bother me much :D ).

i'm working on a squier strat that i'm revamping with a veneer top, epoxyed defretted fretboard, and this just has to have a sustainer system on it. so i'm going to work on one as soon as i manage to find time away from work, studies and girlriend, all in all a killer job :D ... and will definitely contribute with my experiences when i do. hope it's sometime soon, though.... anyhow keep up the great work!

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Excellent...I have a real soft spot for the fretless guitar and hope to do something along those lines myself eventually....good luck and keep all things in balance... pete

Oh yeah...and I got an email supporting some of your ideas and in thinking about it today, perhaps something off site where sustainer people can gather and learn would be a good idea. I'd particularly like to broaden the scope to include playing and techniques for using the thing that would also feed the technology. Such a site could encompass not only the DIY sustainers, but commercial units as well...and give some voice to such things as the fretless guitar...

For now...it's continue with the main thread...thanks for the ideas...that is what it is all about... p

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hello,

I'm new to this forum and I'd like to try to make a sustainer. I think I have enough expirience making "things", I made electric guitar, tube amp, tube preamp and few stompboxes (if anyone is interested here's my site)

Now I've got a few questions:

I wouldn't drill through my guitar, instead I'd like to make it as external unit. It would have input from guitar (with short patch cable) and output for amp. Maybe it can be fixed to strap (but then I'd need longer wires to driver) or below driver (not so pretty). What do you think is better?

If I make it surface mount to pickguard it should be very thin (about 4mm), could it be a problem for performace?

And finally, the best place for mounting it without messing with pickups is next to my neck pickup, but towards bridge. Isn't that too far?

Thank you all for making this possible!

Cheers,

Bane :D

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Hello bancika, and welcome to the forums. Have you checked out the behemoth of a thread over in the electronics section? If not, I suggest you go take a look. It is 125 pages long, but just about all the information you could ever want is there.

I'm not exactly sure why you are under the impression that you would have to do any drilling into your guitar. Assuming your control cavity is large enough, you shouldn't have to do any alterations to your guitar.

If you read the other thread, you will find out that this sustainer system is pretty much reliant on psw's thin driver concept. In fact, it's be speculated that a coil with a thickness of 3mm or less is optimal. I would urge against a surface mount system, though, because you wont be able to adjust the coil. Because it is easier to drive low strings than it is high strings, in order to get (more) even performance, the driver should be closer to the treble strings and further from the bass strings.

What do you mean too far when you mentioned mounting the driver next to the neck pickup? If you mean between the neck pickup and the neck, that wouldn't be a problem at all. In fact, the closer the driver is to the middle strings, the better it works.

Do keep in mind that if you plan on keeping your neck pickup (or neck and middle in the case of a strat), you will have to have some sophisticated switching to completely remove the neck pickup from the guitar's circuit. If you don't, you will have MASSIVE EMI feedback.

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Hello,

I know there isn't enough space because I made guitar, control cavity is made just to fit guitar electronics, nothing else. Here's image of unpainter body.

As for surface mounting, I don't hink its a problem. When testing it I can use shims to determine optimal height difference and just make it with slope afterwards.

Because it's 24 fret guitar and I have neck humbucker I'm afraid it will be too far from middle of strings to be effective. I plan to keep neck pickup. When you say "completely remove neck pickup", I guess you are not just reffering to "use pickup combination that doesn't include neck pickup", aren't you?

I was trying to read monster thread but it's very hard to dig through data there :D

I've read build tutorial, but I'm still uncertain about one thing: can I use magnet core instead of iron core with magnet below?

Thanks,

Branislav

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removing the neck pickup is just as you say- you must remove it from the circuit while the sustainer is on (probably the mid one as well) to avoid feedback. Definately join the humungo thread, it seeems like you have plenty of valuable knowledge.

BTW, is that Ruby thing on the link in your signature correct?

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Someone (can't remember who) has successfully placed a driver in the middle pickup position on a Strat without excessive EMI, however EMI is still a major issue (one we are working towards fixing, among other things, in the monster thread).

Yes, simply using a pickup selector to deselect the neck pickup will cause fuzz (at least in my case) because the pickup is still connected to ground (one of the electronic experts could give you a better explanation that I can).

There is absolutely no reason why you can't use a magnetic core. The magnet is simply there to provide a static magnetic field for the driver to manipulate. It really doesn't matter whether or not the actual core material is magnetized or not.

I again encourage you to join in on the main discussion. There is a VAST wealth of information there, far more than anyone could give you here. Plus, it means that we won't have to explain everything over and over again. :D

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Hi bancika

First, let me congratulate you on your fabulous DIY Layout Creator Software...I use it a bit and definitiely suggest anyone interested in electronics, stompboxes and the like should download it...very easy to use!

Also...bancika and all others interested in this thread should check out the thread here on making my pickup driver...

PSW's pickup/driver Pictorial

pup-driver1a.jpgpup-driver1b.jpg

as this will give a good idea of what it takes to make a driver, even if not on a pickup...

Your 24 fret guitar is probably not the type of guitar I would be trying this on. The neck pickup is already closer to the bridge and there is no space between the neck and the neck pickup. It may be possible to build a driver onto a humbucking pickup but it would require quite a bit of modifications to the pickup to make it work for both. This has not fully been tried altough I did do a proof of concept with the "sustain box"...

LPSustainer.jpg

Although this thing kind of worked...it would not allow the effective use of the neck pickup for both the driving and pickup functions in this arrangement and there were still some problems...it was not a playing instrument, but an experiment...

The "Sustain Box" on this guitar and the sustainer strat can be heard at the Sustainer Sounds Thread a good example of what my guitar sounds like and can do can be downloaded directly here...beckistan.mp3

For starters I'll do one for my squier strat, it has three single coil pickups (shitty ones), I won't be sorry to take one out.

This kind of guitar is ideal for this project. One is that you probably don't mind experimenting with it... second, it is often a lack of sustain that is what is most critisized in such instruments...there will be no lack of sustain with this device on there!!! On such a guitar it would probably be best to modify it's pickup as I have done. There will need to be fairly extensive rewiring of the whole guitar and additional switching. You will also need to find room for the battery and circuitry...

What I suggest for all people contemplating this build is to build a circuit and a test driver and try it out by holding the driver above the strings over the neck before getting into the switching and installation issues. It is quite likely that your first driver will not be quite as good as you'd hoped and the second one will be better so it is good practice. My sustain box is such a testing device.

It may well be possible to build something that sits on to the guitar to house the battery and circuit but you will still need wiring to and from the guitar to bypass the other pickups, bring in the signal and to send the drive signal. The drive signal may need to be separated from these signal wires because the can emit EMI (mine runs through the trem cavity)...

So...the DIY Sustainer project is still in development. People have made successful sustainers while others are trying to go a little further with it. I am very happy with my guitar but it could be baetter and I will be working with it a little more in the future to improve it...

The types of things currently being discussed is the circuitry and driver design. In particular a driver design that uses two coils similar to a humbucking pickup to reduce EMI feedback. I am very keen to make a driver design that would enable the device to work between the neck and bridge pickups. These are still likely to be pretty thin and may well fit onto a guitar like the one you are building but there is still a fair way to go and a lot of obstacles yet to overcome...

The Sustainer Ideas thread is where you want to be. for discussions about this project, this is a tutorial section and not really for Q&A. Don't be put off by the size of the thread and especially DON'T READ IT ALL, just join in and all your questions will be addressed by myself and a range of others with an interest and experience...just like these guys have done (thanks :D)!

Hope to see you over there and any others interested in doing and contributing to this project... pete :D

Edited by psw
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  • 2 months later...

Just a little update on what has happened in 2006 on the sustainer thread. Several more DIY Sustainers have been made with some success. A new more sophisticated circuit that adds a clever forward feed compressor to even out response, and in so doing saving power has been developed by member Col. He has even made 4 modes, normal, two mixed modes and the harmonic mode which can be operated by a rotary switch...too cool :D

So...circuitry is still indevelopment, but my guitar is still working fine and another member CurtisA is even gigging with a very simialar device to great effect...hahaha These systems still use the basic amplifier and single thin coil driver described here but as more people build them and ideas are shared, we are finding better ways to make and install the devices.

Future projects for 2007 include exploring a mid-driver device for strat type guitars, better drivers and construction techniques and refined circuitry. Even without any future developments, the project has a few options and is a very credible alternatice to the commercial devices on offer, even surpassing them in some respects... In the last year, these developments have been the result of the persistant work of individuals and the collaborative contibutions of everyone who has participated in discussions...

Check out the links posted above and join up and join in at the main thread for more help and information and for updates of where the project is up to at this time and where it is headed. Currently running at 153 pages, do not try reading it, just ask questions and introduce yourself for the present stat of play and support if planning on making this device...

always welcome feedback... pete

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  • 1 month later...

First of all, thank you PSW for all the info!!

I got all the supplies to build a Little gem / ruby / fetzer amp, but i'm a little confused by the design and schematics.

I wired up a very simple version of the circut, using only the LM386, a single capacitor and a 9v, and wired it to a cheap strat.

At the output, I connected a small .5-1 watt 8ohm speaker. At the input, I connected the output from my pickups, spliced from right before it goes out to the normal 1/4 in guitar jack. I used a 100u capacitor, then tried a 220u.

When I tested it, the little speaker is completely unresponsive. I tried both inputs to the LM386, and tried grounding one of the inputs like another tutorial said to.

Basically nothing happened-- the amp popped a couple of times but the little speaker didn't make a sound (yes I know it works.)

The weirdest thing is that when i was messing with the capacitor (which is located between the 386s output and the speaker) a radio station started playing through my amp!!

I ACCIDENTALLY MADE A FREAKING RADIO!!!!!!

Could someone show me in a very basic and simple way how to wire, ground, and solder one of these sustainers AND MINI AMPS in relation to the guitar?

All of these pictures detail the driver -- which is the only thing I do understand.

I just need help with the amp and tapping into the guitar's electronics.

THANKS!!!

Also, is there anywhere to BUY a PREMADE fetzer-ruby (or either one separately) amp?

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  • 2 weeks later...

Welcome mrjstudios, that's pretty funny...

better join us over at the main thread (see the links at the bottom of my post here) for more help. It is possible to get the thing going with just the 386 and an output cap but it is not really the way to go at all and will cause significant loading effects on anything other than active guitar electronics...

You want to splice the signal directly before the controls and only the signal from the bridge pickup. You know, you should be able to pickup up all kinds of radio stations by turning the tone control which adjusts that little cap in there to zero in on stations, CB radios...both the pickups and the driver coils can work as very effective antennas picking up RF signals and the 386 will amplify them 200x before it hits your guitar amp :D

Anyway...there are few short cuts but the project is not really difficult, more fiddly. See you on the main thread... pete

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Ya, the radio got a laugh.

I've gotten alot farther along since that post.

1. I used my crap'o'caster's bridge pickup as my sustainer -- rebuilt it and wound it to about 7.1 Ohms (IS THAT OK??)

2. Also -- I skipped the glue, and just wrapped the wire. Is that ok? or does it have to be glued in?

3. My electronics wiz friend is working on the RUBY-FETZER amp right now -- but some really close up picture of it, (not a modified version) would help a lot. I decided to go with the J201 as "Q1" as well, so I hope that works....

4. WHERE IS THE ENTIRE CIRCUT AND SUSTAINER GROUNDED TO? The battery or the guitar frame?

5. Couldn't I just run the bridge pickup solo all the time -- (kill the middle one) and not have to bypass anything?

Thanks alot,

MRJSTUDIOS

Edited by mrjstudios
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  • 1 month later...

hi mrperson, best to join us over at the main thread for more advice (this is the tutorial section)...check out the links at the bottom of my sig and just join in over there...

hey can u use a standard pickup as the driver no mods or what do i have to do?

No...a pickup is quite a different device. It is wound with very fine wire (wont carry the current we need to put through it) and many thousands of turns (1,000's of ohms) so is not suitable to be driven by standard amplification (requiring 8 ohms)...

I know it seems as if the driver is just a coil of wire and seems to be just a pickup in effect, but it is different. It is interesting to not that the formula, the dimensions of the coil (thin) and the wire guage (0.2mm) is also important...it is not simply creating a coil of the required resistance...

and also how is the amp powering the pickup?

The driver is connected in place of a speaker. Basically the driver is like a speaker coil, and the strings vibrate like a speaker cone. Following this analogy, you can see why you can't have the driver too close to the pickup which, like a mic, will feedback uncontrolably (squeel)...

can you use a ic chip or not either

Not sure what you mean, the general way most do this is to use a lm386 amp chip as in the Fetzer/Ruby preamp/amp combination. The chip provides the amplification but the preamp is necessary to feed it at the right impedance and to prevent resulting loading upon the pickups that would rob them both power and tone...

If you are thinking of trying this project I would strongly suggest that you simply build a circuit and a simple driver with magnets stuck to it and try it out holding the driver above the strings over the fret board (well away from the pickups. Once you have got that working properly you can make another driver to fit into the guitar or modify a pickup, as I have done and work out the installation and switching problems for your guitar...

hope that helps... pete

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  • 9 months later...
i had an idea, to save your pup put a HSS scratch plate on and put ir next to the bridge single(idea for strats btw)

Thanks...but not a really fully practical solution. You would still need to bypass the middle pickup and assuming the neck is replaced by a stand alone driver, an important pickup is lost. Also, two singles do not a HB make. Better to move the middle pickup next to the bridge to exploit the RWRP qualities and move the neck to the middle. Still, you would need to bypass the middle pickup as it is too close to present driver designs. Also, putting a pickup next to another like this will change the magnetic footprint resulting in a change in the bridge pickup tone, output and characteristics.

The main thread now pinned to the top of the electronics section now extends to 235 pages and thousands of posts...147,500+ visits at this point in time with a continuous and enthusiastic participation since may 2004. A lot has transpired since this thread was established.

Hopefully we will update or replace this tutorial...there are other threads to explore here and links to those are in my signature below. Anyone interested should post, regardless of present conversations on the main thread and not be afraid that things have already been covered or that they have not read the thread. This is probably not an advisable occupation anyway as it is more likely to confuse. It is a thread that explores ideas and documents attempts and successes as well as failures and should not be taken as a "guide" as much as threads like this purport to do.

Happy sustaining and welcome to anyone just coming across this information.

pete

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  • 3 months later...

Hey all, i'm new to this forum. i know my way around electronics but i'm having a little trouble with the sustainer. Firstly, from what i understand the driver must be relatively thin (height wise), but this means if i were to use a magnet and an iron core it would come out at least 1.5cm in height unlike what i've seen around. Secondly, what thickness wire should i use for this. And last, i'm thinking of making my own pickup, what thickness wire should i use in that case?

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