Lowest Action Ever

[DrummerDude]

Shredders cannot play on high action axes as fast as they can on low action ones.

This is all about physics and nothing more.

It has nothing to do with some guy's fast fingers because those same fast fingers will have to travel a longer way on a high action guitar than on a low action one. And this means slower playing.

The higher the strings are, the longer the way your finger has to travel to fret them.

The longer the way, the slower you play.

That's it.

Pure physics.

Playing fast on a high action guitar would be as hard as playing with your fingers lifted too far from the fretboard - you simply lose valuable time until your finger gets back to the fret.

Believe me, low action is important for speeding up your playing.

Actually, I can't believe that I had to write all this - I thought that it was obvious and everybody knew that.

Some people (the blues types) love high action.

That's OK with me - I don't care if some guy loves it when the strings are two miles away from the fretboard.

I do like freaking low action, though, and I want to build an axe that has that low action.

Please, share your tips and tricks.

[soapbarstrat]

I do like freaking low action, though, and I want to build an axe that has that low action.

You do already have at least one guitar ? And I'll assume this guitar is somewhat of a "shred guitar" ?

Well, have you gotten the action you are going for, with this guitar ? If not, what makes you think the action part is going to be better on a brand new build ? The same tweaks you would do to get a new guitar to play as well as possible can also be done to an old guitar.

[DrummerDude]

You are right, I have my Ibanez's 6-th string down to 1,2mm at 12-th fret but I need to go lower, say 1mm at 17-th fret and I don't know how to do that without any fret buzz.

What do I need to do besides lower down the brifdge? Any tweaks witht he truss rod? Etc...

I am just looking for tips.

I am going to build a new axe anyway, so I was looking for tips on how to make the new build ultra low-action too.

With a new build I will have the advantage of putting whatever neck angle, nut and bridge that work best for achieving super low action.

[guitar2005]

I just found that anything under that decreases sustain and generates more buzz.

Should read : I just found that anything under that,* on this particular guitar, with the way it's been setup, and how level the frets are*, decreases sustain and generates more buzz.

Nope - I meant for all my guitars. I currently own 6. The same applies to my previous guitars and probably every other guitar in the world. I should have said I set my action close to 1/16" in my original post. 3/64" is the lowest I go but that's a personal preference. Lower action means less sustain and more buzz - I don't care what you say - I trust my ears. I'm real picky when it comes to string buzz. I tolerate very little of it, distortion or no distortion. That's why I play with heavier gauge strings. Remember that the action is largely dependent on how the player attacks the strings.

You could go lower but you need a low radius on the fretboard if you'll be doing any wide bends in the high registers. That's what the post is about - What is the trick to low action? Also, with more string mass (i.e. 10 gauge strings) you can get more sustain and the buzz won't be as prominent.

[fryovanni]

You are right, I have my Ibanez's 6-th string down to 1,2mm at 12-th fret but I need to go lower, say 1mm at 17-th fret and I don't know how to do that without any fret buzz.

What do I need to do besides lower down the brifdge? Any tweaks witht he truss rod? Etc...

I am just looking for tips.

I am going to build a new axe anyway, so I was looking for tips on how to make the new build ultra low-action too.

With a new build I will have the advantage of putting whatever neck angle, nut and bridge that work best for achieving super low action.

I don't want to even comment on how much time 8 thousandths of an inch will save you.

Before we randomly dish out tips. How about giving us the low down on your current method of setting up your guitars neck(step by step). If you can also give what settings you prefer(relief, nut clearance etc...). Be as complete as you can. The more accurate your responce is the more accurate the suggestions can be.

Seems like it would make sense to talk about setting up a made neck, before even starting a discussion on accurate construction methods.

Peace,Rich

P.S. A well made necks limitaions are going to be based on playing technique. "How delicate and consistent can you play". There is of course a point that you will just lose all dynamic and constantly fight humidity tweaking the neck. Let's just say extreamly low action is not "road worthy" for a professional.

Peace,Rich

[DrummerDude]

Rich, the difference between a guitar with 1,2 mm at 12th fret and anothe one with 1 mm at 17 th fret is much more than 8 thousands of an inch.

I can't calculate it but if we acept that a gitar with 1 mm at 17th has 0.8mm at 12th, then 1,2 - 0,8 = 0,4 mm.

0,4 mm is 0,015 in.

[soapbarstrat]

and probably every other guitar in the world. Lower action means less sustain and more buzz - I don't care what you say -

Ok, sounds like I'm talking to a 17 year old here. I guess you need to get out more often then. I set them up lower than that all the time, get paid for it, have customers who says how nice it is to finally find someone who does it right. And that's been going on for nearly 20 years. And if that's too hard to handle, I'm even a damn good guitarist myself, who's main guitar has a 12" radius. High E 1/32" low E 3/64" at 12th fret. Play unplugged most of the time. Don't tolerate buzz. Moderate picking attack. No choking out when I bend etc. Wouldn't be able to stand that. But, you don't care, so you're the big man who knows better.

[fryovanni]

Rich, the difference between a guitar with 1,2 mm at 12th fret and anothe one with 1 mm at 17 th fret is much more than 8 thousands of an inch.

I can't calculate it but if we acept that a gitar with 1 mm at 17th has 0.8mm at 12th, then 1,2 - 0,8 = 0,4 mm.

0,4 mm is 0,015 in.

I am ok with you saying the guitar has 1mm at 17 and .8mm at 12 if you have a dead flat neck and .092mm clear at the 1st fret. If this is how you have your neck relief and nut clearance set right now, you have 1.2mm at 12 and 1.5mm at 17(currently). Again I have no idea what your neck is set up like(relief, nut slot heights). That is why I asked for you to give details on how you set up your necks and what your preferences were(specifically).

P.S. If you do have some relief built into your neck say .01" around 8. Your 12th. fret clearnace would be greater (along the order of about .007"). Just a thought.

Peace,Rich

[rhoads56]

Shredders cannot play on high action axes as fast as they can on low action ones.

This is all about physics and nothing more.

It has nothing to do with some guy's fast fingers because those same fast fingers will have to travel a longer way on a high action guitar than on a low action one. And this means slower playing.

Sorry, how much experience do you have setting up guitars for gigging professionals, or do you simply 'muck around' with your own single guitar at home?

You realise EVERY PERSON is different, and that is why there are freaks out there like Micheal Angelo, who can outshred me, you, and everyone else around here, on any guitar, with any action. Ive set up enough guitars for people that i know their playing style doesnt necessarily dictate the type of action they will want. In fact, the lower the action, the more chances they are simply a bedroom warrior....

Sure, a lower action means less effort, but for some people that is worse. They feel that they cant feel the strings (especially when they are running around on stage). They cant bend if they want to. They get too much buzzing. And they certainly dont want to have a tech on the road tweeking the neck as the room temperature and stage lights/airconditioner, play havoc with the truss rod and neck.

[guitar2005]

Sorry, how much experience do you have setting up guitars for gigging professionals, or do you simply 'muck around' with your own single guitar at home?

You realise EVERY PERSON is different, and that is why there are freaks out there like Micheal Angelo, who can outshred me, you, and everyone else around here, on any guitar, with any action. Ive set up enough guitars for people that i know their playing style doesnt necessarily dictate the type of action they will want. In fact, the lower the action, the more chances they are simply a bedroom warrior....

Sure, a lower action means less effort, but for some people that is worse. They feel that they cant feel the strings (especially when they are running around on stage). They cant bend if they want to. They get too much buzzing. And they certainly dont want to have a tech on the road tweeking the neck as the room temperature and stage lights/airconditioner, play havoc with the truss rod and neck.

+1

I could not have said this better myself.

I find that this article by Rich at Ibanez Rules describes action best

http://www.ibanezrules.com/tech/setup/action.htm

Edited February 13, 2007 by guitar2005

[westhemann]

i use as low action as i can get...usually around 1.5mm

if you are like me and work full time,and only play 30 minutes to an hour a day...then low action is incredibly important to maintaining decent speed without injuring yourself...light gauge strings too.

if you play hours a day and always warm up...then you are not like me,and action is much less important.

having said that...the difference between 1.5 mm and 1mm in feel is not much.and it aint gonna help you shred...only talent can do that(and hours of practice)

steve vai i heard practices 8 hours a day...any body here do that?i wish i could

[soapbarstrat]

But don't the guys who play places big enough that they can run around, usually do have a tech ? But, I don't want to dwell on live performaces, because the good ones are rare.

It's hard to find written specs of a whole bunch of shredders. The bottom of this page....

http://www.stewmac.com/freeinfo/I-5350.html

....has a variety of specs, of which a few, to me, are what a lot of shredders like (the Ibanez one, for example). The Gordon-Smith is also impressive. Leon Rhodes is too clean (and old-sorry Leon) to be a shredder, but he's also got a real low set-up and he plays on one of the Erlewine videos and their ain't no sustain loss going on there.

If this discussion were going on over on the gear page, I bet a bunch of Suhr owners would be taking issue with the "low action= poor performance" comments. hehe. I actually started getting interested in getting lower action when I read an article where the one Lynyrd Skynyrd guitarist was describing how well his Suhr played. Something like "they're engineered so well. you don't have to press the strings, you just touch them". It was around 1987 (including that, so no one can give Plek credit). Of course I had to contact John to get some fret-work tips, and he was nice enough to do it. (he was using the StewMac neck-jig)

[GregP]

I just re-did the action on my "main" guitar... what a nightmare. That's about all I gotta say about that. Measurement tools weren't worth squat by the end of it, though I tried to do it "measured" against the PRS recipe. I threw away the measurement tools and went by what felt right. I'm not at all convinced I did it perfectly, but the measurement tools were making it far far worse. I might take it in to see what a pro can do about it, but last time I tried that I just reset it myself anyhow... the "pro" did a worse job than me. I need to find someone I trust.

Greg

[DrummerDude]

Low action = less effort for your fingers, less movement too, better positioning, less muscle and tendon friction.

And this means less chances to get Tendinitis, Carpal Tunnel Syndrom, Tendovaginitis and the other guitar-related injuries. I am not saying that if you use high action, you will get those injuries, but playing with a minimal action would help you evade them for sure.

Yes, there are people who like medium or even high action. Yes, this is their style. Yes, they like to "dig" into the strings or whatever.

The thing here is that I don't care about them. This is just NOT my style. I hope you understand.

I care about the guys with ultra low action like Michael Angelo and the such.

Is he just a bedroom warrior? I don't think so.

Whoever thinks that guitar players with low action are sissies who just can't fret good, think twice.

I love it when people are trying to beat physics but I haven't heard of single one doing it for real.

High action = more effort, more movement, more tension, less speed.

That's it.

Just watch Michael Angelo Batio's "Speed Kills" video and you will notice that his fingers never leave the fretboard.

MINIMUM effort for maximum speed.

That's the secret and he explains this pretty damn well in the video.

In that vid he is using several guitars.

Pay attention to his signature custom builts - they are all ultra-freaking-low action.

This is what I am after too.

[fryovanni]

Low action = less effort for your fingers, less movement too, better positioning, less muscle and tendon friction.

And this means less chances to get Tendinitis, Carpal Tunnel Syndrom, Tendovaginitis and the other guitar-related injuries. I am not saying that if you use high action, you will get those injuries, but playing with a minimal action would help you evade them for sure.

Yes, there are people who like medium or even high action. Yes, this is their style. Yes, they like to "dig" into the strings or whatever.

The thing here is that I don't care about them. This is just NOT my style. I hope you understand.

I care about the guys with ultra low action like Michael Angelo and the such.

Is he just a bedroom warrior? I don't think so.

Whoever thinks that guitar players with low action are sissies who just can't fret good, think twice.

I love it when people are trying to beat physics but I haven't heard of single one doing it for real.

High action = more effort, more movement, more tension, less speed.

That's it.

Just watch Michael Angelo Batio's "Speed Kills" video and you will notice that his fingers never leave the fretboard.

MINIMUM effort for maximum speed.

That's the secret and he explains this pretty damn well in the video.

In that vid he is using several guitars.

Pay attention to his signature custom builts - they are all ultra-freaking-low action.

This is what I am after too.

Ok this topic is getting old. I don't want to debate what action is good for you. I want to help you get the action you want to achive. In other words answer your question. The only way you can get some actual tips as you requested is if you help us out and give us an idea as to what methods you currently use to set up your neck and what specs you prefer.

Before we randomly dish out tips. How about giving us the low down on your current method of setting up your guitars neck(step by step). If you can also give what settings you prefer(relief, nut clearance etc...). Be as complete as you can. The more accurate your responce is the more accurate the suggestions can be.

If you don't want to get into specifics. Then I will move on and let you guys chat for a couple more years. Either way, have fun with it and always set your guitars up the way you like em(that is all that counts)

Rich

[Jon]

My action is pretty crazy on my basses. Ranges about 3mm on the low B to about 1mm on the smaller gauge strings. Very comfortable for my playstyle.

[radrobgray]

i use as low action as i can get...usually around 1.5mm

if you are like me and work full time,and only play 30 minutes to an hour a day...then low action is incredibly important to maintaining decent speed without injuring yourself...light gauge strings too.

if you play hours a day and always warm up...then you are not like me,and action is much less important.

having said that...the difference between 1.5 mm and 1mm in feel is not much.and it aint gonna help you shred...only talent can do that(and hours of practice)

steve vai i heard practices 8 hours a day...any body here do that?i wish i could

agreed very much warm up and practice will make more of a differance than .5mm in action. also i do practice around 8 hours on my days off from work (4 days a week).

Low action = less effort for your fingers, less movement too, better positioning, less muscle and tendon friction.

And this means less chances to get Tendinitis, Carpal Tunnel Syndrom, Tendovaginitis and the other guitar-related injuries. I am not saying that if you use high action, you will get those injuries, but playing with a minimal action would help you evade them for sure.

Yes, there are people who like medium or even high action. Yes, this is their style. Yes, they like to "dig" into the strings or whatever.

The thing here is that I don't care about them. This is just NOT my style. I hope you understand.

I care about the guys with ultra low action like Michael Angelo and the such.

Is he just a bedroom warrior? I don't think so.

Whoever thinks that guitar players with low action are sissies who just can't fret good, think twice.

I love it when people are trying to beat physics but I haven't heard of single one doing it for real.

High action = more effort, more movement, more tension, less speed.

That's it.

Just watch Michael Angelo Batio's "Speed Kills" video and you will notice that his fingers never leave the fretboard.

MINIMUM effort for maximum speed.

That's the secret and he explains this pretty damn well in the video.

In that vid he is using several guitars.

Pay attention to his signature custom builts - they are all ultra-freaking-low action.

This is what I am after too.

that aint gonna make any differance. i like my guitars to have a semi-"high" action (almost 2mm) and i can play the frieght train solo easy. not because of my action, not because of how "great" my guitar is, but how much i busted my ass and practiced. stop worrying about your action and just play more, thats all there is to it.

[westhemann]

well..i will try to answer your question,drummerdude..if my net don't cut me off..

to get the lowest action possible...you need (all this is in my experience and opinion...but i am sure some of it will start an argument)

2 way truss rod...you need to have complete control over the neck

when you build the guitar,you MUST level the fretboard PERFECTLY before fretting...you need a large readius...ibanez uses around 16" iirc and i always get the best action specs from their neck thru's..compound radius will work very,very well(10" to about 16")the radius is important for bending with low action...

seat the frets perfectly.....you absolutely want the most level fretboard you can get

set your nut height right(that would be exactly flush with the top of the fret)you should really use a steel nut for this(all mine havce locking nuts)because the slots on a regular nut will wear down and buzz too quickly)

when you string your guitar up...use 9s(why use heavier strings when after all you are after ease of fretting),tune to pitch,and make sure your fretboard is still straight,use the truss rod to get it straight...(i don't use neck relief...neck relief makes my action higher...i really don't care about the argument for neck relief,i just don't find it to be effective)

after you do all that,take your strings down until you get buzz...then raise a hair...you really need a bridge with individual saddle height adjustment so every string is adjusted to your preference

it is all common sense...which is why you are not getting much feedback....the answer of getting low action is pretty dang simple

but others disagree...some believe that you must have neck relief...i don't.i just don't see the validity of the geometry of that...i think more likely that is a leftover from the days when all guitars had one way conventional truss rods and didn't allow much neck control.

soapbar is right...some guitars just do not allow super low action.i find that those are the guitars that have the old school truss rod.

anyway.i am sure this will get ripped apart...but that is exactly how i do it....to get roughly 1.2 mm to 1.5mm action on all the necks i have built in the last few years..

[DrummerDude]

Thanks, westhemann.

Yes, it is really easy to guess what you need for low action but it is hard to put it to practice without the proper experience. That's why i need tips and advices from people wh have done this before.

I will take your advice on the double action truss rod. Makes a lot of sense - more control seems to be one of the secrets.

Abut compound fretboads - I don't know how to make one but I guess there are tutorials out there, so I will take my time reading about that.

Any tips on how to make the freatboard and frets leveling absolutely perfect would be much appreciated.

Thanks!

PS:

Holy cow, this setup is cool - only 0.8 mm at 17th fret!

Damn, I am fighting for 1,1 on 12th fret.

I need to build an axe like this one:

.

[westhemann]

notice the zero neck relief

[soapbarstrat]

That Gordon-Smith has a 25.5" scale neck with a 12" radius board. That part is super typical. You could easy find an existing guitar as that "base" and then see if you can manage to learn to do the final tweaking that your goal is absolutely dependant on. You can't do it on an existing guitar ? Then it probably aint gonna happen on the complete build.

When I tweak a guitar for lowest action the T-rod design is not a determining factor. It's ideal that there's always tension on the rod with a one-way rod neck. That way, the neck will adjust both ways. Sometimes to get it that way, tension needs to be put on the rod, then the fret-board leveled straight. In other words, in a typical situation, I've done the best I could with the T-rod adjustment. Then it's time to make the board more level than the T-rod could.

I also go for a perfectly straight neck (allowing a few thou tolerance, since humidity can take that a little in either direction). And a common thing that needs to be done to a fret-board is a hump at the body joint, and/or rise a little farther up at the heel area leveled out.

You should at least have Erlewine's GPRG. I think the Erlewine books are the ones that go into the most detail about leveling fret-boards and frets.

If this thread goes on for another page or more, then we're all SICK, and need to be hospitalized.

Edited February 15, 2007 by soapbarstrat

[DrummerDude]

notice the zero neck relief

Yes, I noticed that - seems that I need a dead flat neck. Thanks for the tip.

@soapbarstrat, yeah, we are all going to end up in a lunatic asylum.

[DrummerDude]

OK, what is your experience with action on factory made guitars, guys?

I mean, waht is the lowes action factory made guitar you've dealt with?

Mostly interested in metal-shaped guitars especially Randy Rhoads or Kerry King shaped V's.

Seems that you were right and setting up a pre-made guitar's action is the smarter way to go after all. Could save me months or even years of building. I will go for a cheapo axe and then try to customize it to my needs, to make it play and feel like an expensive guitar.

I read a lot of Harmony Central reviews about V-shaped BC Riches, Jacksons, Kramers, ESPs and so on but people had completely different opinions about the action on those guitars. Users of one and the same maker and model guitar claimed both that the action was "too high" or "quite OK".

[fryovanni]

OK, what is your experience with action on factory made guitars, guys?

I mean, waht is the lowes action factory made guitar you've dealt with?

Mostly interested in metal-shaped guitars especially Randy Rhoads or Kerry King shaped V's.

Seems that you were right and setting up a pre-made guitar's action is the smarter way to go after all. Could save me months or even years of building. I will go for a cheapo axe and then try to customize it to my needs, to make it play and feel like an expensive guitar.

I read a lot of Harmony Central reviews about V-shaped BC Riches, Jacksons, Kramers, ESPs and so on but people had completely different opinions about the action on those guitars. Users of one and the same maker and model guitar claimed both that the action was "too high" or "quite OK".

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Peace,Rich

[DrummerDude]

OK, what is your experience with action on factory made guitars, guys?

I mean, waht is the lowes action factory made guitar you've dealt with?

Mostly interested in metal-shaped guitars especially Randy Rhoads or Kerry King shaped V's.

Seems that you were right and setting up a pre-made guitar's action is the smarter way to go after all. Could save me months or even years of building. I will go for a cheapo axe and then try to customize it to my needs, to make it play and feel like an expensive guitar.

I read a lot of Harmony Central reviews about V-shaped BC Riches, Jacksons, Kramers, ESPs and so on but people had completely different opinions about the action on those guitars. Users of one and the same maker and model guitar claimed both that the action was "too high" or "quite OK".

PG Tutorials

Books

Videos

Book

Frets

Pinned Topic

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Peace,Rich

Thanks Rich, this is an awesome and very informative knowledge base you've managed to put together.

My question was about factory made guitars, though.

Which brand/model gets the lowest action WITHOUT much tweaking? In other words: which guitar brands and models come as good low action players directly out of the factory? ESPs? BC Rich'es? Jacksons? Else?

By the way, I just read the whole thread and there were people who were claiming that low action = bad sustain.

Is that true and if yes, what is the reason?