Lowest Action Ever

[Pr3Va1L]

Yes it is Digi. Its called bragging rights. Seriously low action impresses your mates, but not the guys who record or want to ability to "slack off" and actually dig into the string to get those nicer tones.

Seriously, I personally think that putting .10 or .11 strings will do MUCH more for your tone than higher action.....

[Jehle]

I had to measure my best guitar to see what all the fuss was about here. On my Amber guitar, the 6th string is 3/64" (1.19mm), measured from fret crown to bottom of the string, first fret pressed down during measurement.

The action is pretty consistent across the neck. If I play like I normally do, yeah, it'll buzz a little. I pick really hard though, and at about a 45 degree angle into and away from the body.

The point here is that it's set up with a few compromises. I know how I play. I have the action just low enough that I get clarity of notes I need and a minimum of buzz. Since I rarely play clean, it's not much of an issue. If I do play clean, as Perry points out, I play lightly.

[haggardguy]

Seriously, I personally think that putting .10 or .11 strings will do MUCH more for your tone than higher action.....

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I've never noticed much difference in tone when changing string gauges except on the low e and a strings. Either I have bad ears,prefer lighter strings or I'm not eric johnson but I have my Charvel strung with 8s right now and I find no problem with my tone .

[Daniel Sorbera]

I found string gauge to be a huge factor in tone. When I changed from 9's to 10's I thought the improvement in tone was substancial.

Also action is not the only thing that makes a neck feel "fast". The back contour must be comfterable for you. I find that wide low frets are very easy to slide over and make it feel more "fluid".

Edited August 28, 2005 by Godin SD

[thegarehanman]

...Strings don't vibrate in spherical patters unless you're spinning them like a jumprope. It takes merely a highschool level physics coarse to know that....

Edited November 26, 2005 by thegarehanman

[VanKirk]

Gettin a chuckle out of this debate

Strings don't vibrate in spherical patters unless you're spinning them like a jumprope. It takes merely a highschool level physics coarse to know that.

I grab the guitar sitting next to me, pluck the low E string and I watch it move as much side to side as it does up and down.

Pluck it gently or forcefully, no matter how hard I try I can't comfortably pluck the string without pressing down slightly.

This makes the string vibrate in an eliptical, very close to a circular pattern.

I'd think string gauge would affect how it would vibrate but not THAT much differently than what I just saw on my own guitar w/ .10-.54's.

As a technician I get very annoyed with engineers because they lose sight of practicallity and even reallity sometimes

What looks right in a book might not be realistic when put into practice.

Go grab your guitar and LOOK at it as you pluck it.

[westhemann]

As a technician I get very annoyed with engineers because they lose sight of practicallity and even reallity sometimes

i could not agree more.i find alot of these debates are perpetuated on only half of the facts,if that.

but let me continue the theory crapfest

(sorry...had to)

as you pick the string with your plectrum,it does not ONLY move to the side,it also slides over the tip of the plectrum,creating a downward motion as well.

good grief these debates make my face hurt.

[tirapop]

thegarehanman,

I've got to join in on the pile, with my engineer hat on. I've seen scholarly papers that show the string trajectory at antinodes and they move in ellipses, they move in figure 8s. Studies were done using stroboscopic lighting, to "freeze" the string to make its motion more clearly visible.

Citing high school physics is condescending and naive. A string isn't a simple oscillator. What makes that cool sound we like is all the overtones. The string vibrates in it primary mode: nodes at either end of the string and the antinode (max displacement) in the middle. But the string also vibrates at the first harmonic, the secondary mode where the nodes are at each end and in the middle (12th fret on an open string) with antinode between the nodes. And so it goes with the second, third, fourth harmonic. And the string is alternating through all those vibrational modes. This isn't a simple pendulum. Pendula don't make stutter steps in their swing.

Think about the end conditions. The strings are bent over a nut and a saddle. There's a moment that puts the outer part of the string in greater tension. The string isn't symmetrically supported. When the string vibrates, the tension on the string isn't uniform along the length of the string. As standing waves run up and down the string, coming in an out of phase with other standing waves, the string gets more slack in places and more taut in other places.

What would keep the vibration in one plane? Inertia? Well, any little chunk of string you care to look at will be moving through wider and narrower displacements as different harmonics express themselves. As such, the inertia will be increasing and decreasing. There isn't enough inertia to ensure that the motion stays in that plane. It's like a bullet fired from a smooth bore. There isn't enough inertia to prevent bullet from tumbling in flight. What initiates the tumbling? Non-idealities and non-linear behavior that exist in the real world. Guitars are swimming in them: non-symmetric end conditions, strings that aren't completely uniform, plucking that introduces other load components, air molecules grabbing at the strings.

[unclej]

thegarehanman,

I've got to join in on the pile, with my engineer hat on.  I've seen scholarly papers that show the string trajectory at antinodes and they move in ellipses, they move in figure 8s.  Studies were done using stroboscopic lighting, to "freeze" the string to make its motion more clearly visible.

Citing high school physics is condescending and naive.  A string isn't a simple oscillator.  What makes that cool sound we like is all the overtones.  The string vibrates in it primary mode: nodes at either end of the string and the antinode (max displacement) in the middle.  But the string also vibrates at the first harmonic, the secondary mode where the nodes are at each end and in the middle (12th fret on an open string) with antinode between the nodes.  And so it goes with the second, third, fourth harmonic.  And the string is alternating through all those vibrational modes.  This isn't a simple pendulum.  Pendula don't make stutter steps in their swing.

Think about the end conditions.  The strings are bent over a nut and a saddle.  There's a moment that puts the outer part of the string in greater tension.  The string isn't symmetrically supported.  When the string vibrates, the tension on the string isn't uniform along the length of the string.  As standing waves run up and down the string, coming in an out of phase with other standing waves, the string gets more slack in places and more taut in other places.

What would keep the vibration in one plane?  Inertia?  Well, any little chunk of string you care to look at will be moving through wider and narrower displacements as different harmonics express themselves.  As such, the inertia will be increasing and decreasing.  There isn't enough inertia to ensure that the motion stays in that plane.  It's like a bullet fired from a smooth bore.  There isn't enough inertia to prevent bullet from tumbling in flight.  What initiates the tumbling?  Non-idealities and non-linear behavior that exist in the real world.  Guitars are swimming in them: non-symmetric end conditions, strings that aren't completely uniform, plucking that introduces other load components, air molecules grabbing at the strings.

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i was going to say that but you beat me to it.

[soapbarstrat]

1 millimeter = 0.0393701 inch = " + 1/32"

1.1684 millimeter=0.046 inch= 3/64"

(assuming 'online conversion' is correct)

Anyway, +1/32" for the high E at the 12th fret is fairly common (at least I often get that on a 25.5" scale neck, 12" or flatter radius, and at least a .009" string.)

3/64" for the low E at 12th fret is fairly common.

Using a human eye to give the reading of a gauge/ruler, expect a pretty big margin for error.

Tune way down, and increase the string gauges to maintain "similar tension", and I guess it's possible to get similar action.

Also, I'm always assuming that compared to the action height at the 12th fret, the action closer to the body is a little higher (ie; 22nd fret action higher than 12th fret action) (actually sometimes more than needed when "fallaway" is taken off the board/frets)

Hope I wrote everything right, because I can't edit my posts. (as if it would be catastrophic if I deleted any more posts. LOL ! )

[bisonlespaul59]

my les paul is set up with 11-52 and the action is 2/32 at high e and 3/32 at the low e.

I personally liek it that high. Nice chunky, tight feel.

Cant shred on it that well, but would can get some serious tone.

[ebun]

is there a happy medium for how the string height be set?

buzz

no buzz

a little buzz

with a arch

straight across so taht all strings are even

[soapbarstrat]

kind of ironic that this old thread pops up, just right when my most demanding customer is going to send me another guitar to work on.

This guy doesn't want to hear anything about some "happy medium".

He wants : "strings to be as close as possible to laying right on the frets".

[Matt]

I was getting kinda into this debate, Perry went a bit quiet after a while.

Now what is everyones opinion on neck relief/bow?

For very low action, due to the fact that a string vibrates most at its nodes (in the middle) then this suggests that a certain a mount of neck relif should be incorporated instead of a dead flat neck?

any opinions?

Matt

[thegarehanman]

I got kind of peeved with this thread a while back and consequently forgot to post any support for my argument. I don't expect all of you to be convinced(not to say that's a bad thing, many esteemed popes firmly believed the universe was geocentric ). Needless to say, looks can be very deceiving.

String Vibrations:

1st article

2nd article

This isn't to say that a string doesn't stray from its original path. The path is not eliptical though. If it is moving in two planes simulataneously, the two motions are independent of one another. Think of it as a wave on the vertical and a wave on the horizontal.

I suppose this could be considered a compromise of our different concepts. In the end, the physics of the strings are really, quite moot. The fact is that the string must have some sort of clearance or else its vibrations will be hindered. And matt does have a point, but you should be aware that a node is actually motionless in terms of a wave. The part that moves is referred to as an "anti-node." This is commonly known as a wave's "crest" or "trough" depending on its position relative to the node. This is often associated with a traveling wave, but is applicable(staticly) to a standing wave, as in a guitar.

peace,

russ

Edited November 21, 2005 by thegarehanman

[Gemm012]

good grief these debates make my face hurt.

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Oh? Cause it's killin' me!

I'm sorry, I had to.

Galen.

[Curtis P]

regarding the plucked string theory bull sh!t

heres a pic of a plucked string (I hope Matt doesnt mind, i searched and found his old thread bout his new camera and found the pic i was lookin for)

As you can see its moving in a circular motion (well, it looks that way to me)

As for my action, well, i actually have a life and i dont bother mesuring the action on my guitar, but i will say its low enough to play moderatly fast and smoothly, but not low enough to buzz, and thats good for me

Curtis

[thegarehanman]

How you glean an elipse from one 2-d picture is beyond me.

Read this:

waves, their discriptions, and java applets to demonstrate each one

The fact remains that if a string's action is too low, it's going to buzz. On top of that, many people prefer to not have super low action. Personally, I don't think it's necessary to even toy with super low action until you've mastered playing a guitar with "normal action." I don't like to play with super low action at all; it's not condusive to blues.

Edited November 22, 2005 by thegarehanman

[GregP]

I absolutely HATE super-low action. The only reason I continue with moderately low action is to facilitate a certain level of speed and to keep the intonation in check.

On my acoustic, I'm at roughly 3 or 4 mm high right now at the 12th fret. That's just a complete guess... no point getting out the ruler. It's high, I know that.

Greg

[soapbarstrat]

On top of that, many people prefer to not have super low action.

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Most guitars are not even capable of having the option of super-low action. Although that doesn't stop everyone from trying to do it on those guitars.

But terms like "super low action" mean little to me. actual numbers are the only way to really discuss it.

[thegarehanman]

I use "super low action" as a general description. You understand the concept I'm trying to convey. That is all that matters. It seems like this thread is little more than a battle of the legalists(myself included).

[soapbarstrat]

But I still don't know what "super low" action is. There doesn't seem to be any standard. It's like when I read about that Plek fret leveling CNC machine, and they give all these tolerances about how accurate the machine is, then when you want action height specifics, they say " Low action". What the hell does that mean ? Give me some freakin numbers. How about give me the specs off the last "low action" plek job ?

Ok, sorry that's a rant that's not for anyone here, but it goes right along with these labels (low, medium, high action).

Here's my idea of low action (but not super-low) : 1/32" at the 12th fret for the high E . That's a standard I've been using on my own guitars for years. "super-low" would be lower than that. But I bet some of these "high action=monster good tone" guys would call my 1/32" SUPER low. Also I don't agree with the high action equals better tone idea. Those stiff sounding notes on hard to play guitars will put me to sleep faster than anything (and I've even been out of "shred mode" for years)

[Matt]

I did 1mm on my Charvel once, without ANY buzz. I also tuned it down to C standard, and still no buzz. I had set her up myself, but then I changed string gauge and it was never the same again

←

Hia,

When you said you had 1mm low action, did you have much neck relief (bow), or was the FB perfectly straight?

Thanks

Matt

[Fan O' Zakk]

Here's one for y'all.

The middle node (a true dead spot in string vibration, where movement is near nil) would be classified as dead center between the nut and bridge. That'd be the 12th fret.

So if you're picking the string open, or even fretting it at one of the lower frets, the amount that the string's moving near the 12th is near squat anyhow.

[Matt]

No it doesn't work like that because that is only the fundamental frequency that a guitar string vibrates at. There are literally hundreds of overtones and other frequencies that is produced when you pluck a string.

What do you think a pinch harmonic is (Zakk uses these loads). which you produce a pinch Harmonic, by touching the string with the side of your thumb, it cuts out the larger wavelength frequencies such as the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th ect fundamentals, so That you just get the short wavelength frequencies (higher pitch) vibrating and so hence the high pitch squeal taht sounds kick-ass.

Just take a look at the guitar string when you pluck it.... are you sure that above the 12th fret the string ISN'T moving.

.....didn't think so.

So actually when you pluck a string it vibrates most in the middle becasue of the addition of all the harmonics and over tones.

Matt