Guitar prices?

[G_urr_A]

I've been wondering about the prices on some guitars compared to others.

Have a look at, for example, a Jackson KE3 and a Jackson KE2 (specs for both can be found at www.jacksonguitars.com). The KE3 retails at about $650 at my local music shop, the KE2 for $3700 (last time I checked). Now, the differences between those two guitars are as far as I can see, of rather small importance.

The KE2:

-Is availible right and left handed

-Is availible in way more colors, including graphics finnishes

-Has maple top instead of veneer under transparent colors

-Is neck-through

-Has quartersawn neck wood

-Has ebony fretboard, instead of rosewood

-Ships with Seymour-Duncans instead of Duncan Designeds

-Has a tone pot

-Has original, not licensed, Floyd

-Includes HSC

-Has binding on fingerboard and headstock

-Has real mother-of-pearl inlays

-Has quality-brand pots and switches

-Has painted headstock

What is it that justifies the difference in price?

[feylya]

Well, that is part of it but chances are the KE2 is hand crafted, not CNCed. Also, more care would have be used making the KE2. Better finishes, construction techniques, stuff like that. It all adds up to a supposedly "better" guitar.

[canuckguitarist]

I can't see, hand crafting making that much of a difference on the cost of a guitar, 500 or 600 bucks maybe, possibly more, but not a $3000 difference. Also, the KE-3 comes in those kick ass swirl finishes.

Aaron

[westhemann]

the things you listed all add up to major improvements.neck thru construction among other things greatly increase the cost of production.

the main thing is this.jackson u.s.a. produces high quality instruments made by well paid luthiers who have pride in their work and excell at making guitars.people are willing to pay for the attention to detail and building materials,not to mention the better hardware and electronics.

on the other hand you have a whole other set of people who want a guitar made by jackson but can't afford the $3000 plus price tag.so what do they do?they have it built overseas in sweatshops where people who are just working to survive slap them together to a much lower standard as fast as they possibly can.and they do it for wages that me and you would not work for.they also have poorer machinery and cheaper hardware.this enables them to build a guitar dirt cheap and then sell it to you for about $400

look around at prices of guitar parts sometime.go to stewmac and write down all the prices of what you would need to build a guitar from scratch using only the best quality parts.then do the same thing but search on the internet for the lowest quality cheap hardware you can find.the price difference is astronomical.i bought a tone pros locking tune o matic and tailpiece set for $120 for my v.but you can buy something that looks similar but is lower quality for around $40.

but the biggest price difference is in the labor.

the bottom line is...something is worth what people will pay for it.and the handmade instruments are much better than the mass produced ones.

[westhemann]

by the way all those differences you listed are of MAJOR importance.quartersawn neck wood can make or break a neck.a maple top is more expensive than veneer,as is an original floyd.

real mother of pearl vs plastic?mother of pearl is very expensive.

everything you listed as different is a major improvement.i only buy the best quality hardware when i build a guitar and it adds up quick.

i do think $3700 is a little much but if you shop around you can probably get it for around $2500.those retail prices are set high on purpose.

[krazyderek]

binding, is considered a "luxury" and it's kind of a pain to do a good job on it. and also makes fretting wonderfully fun too,

Floyds, well.. there's 200$ right there.. i could get a lo pro floyd licsence for 60$CAN ... but the real floyds cost about 250$.... so like i said.... there's 200$ right there.

U have to pay someone to find all that quatersawn wood u know, it doesn't just dance around saying "hello mr guitar builder guy, i'm a quality peice of wood!! USE ME!" and just cause it's quatersawn doesn't mean it's fit for a high quality guitar, it has to have no warps, bends, knots, chips, or rott....

like the other guys said, neck thru takes more time and planing to build, and they're also harder to work with.

ebony is about twice as expensive as rosewood....

then u have to pay all the people that do all the work, like they said before, american wages are much higher then say japan or korea, and on top of alllllllllllllll that, the company has to make enough profit to stay up to date with all they machinery wear and tear, and on top of, on top of that.... they have to make a profit to stay in buisness.

[G_urr_A]

So a lot of the difference is to pay for attention to detail?

Oh, when we're somewhere near that topic, what is "quartersawn" wood? It would probably make more sense to me if someone said the swedish word for it... Anyone willing to explain?

[westhemann]

quartersawn wood describes the direction the grain is running.if you are looking down the length of the guitar neck with the fretboard facing up then the grain should be running vertically.it makes a much stronger and more stable neck.

[GEdwardJones]

the main thing is this.jackson u.s.a. produces high quality instruments made by well paid luthiers who have pride in their work and excell at making guitars.people are willing to pay for the attention to detail and building materials,not to mention the better hardware and electronics.

on the other hand you have a whole other set of people who want a guitar made by jackson but can't afford the $3000 plus price tag.so what do they do?they have it built overseas in sweatshops where people who are just working to survive slap them together to a much lower standard as fast as they possibly can.and they do it for wages that me and you would not work for.they also have poorer machinery and cheaper hardware.this enables them to build a guitar dirt cheap and then sell it to you for about $400

Well this isn't really fair is it? A lot of overseas shops have highly trained luthiers who even make guitars *BY HAND**. But they get paid less, partly due to lower standard of living in their countries. That being said, in their countries the amount of $$ they're making is equivalent.

Labor costs, however, are a big part of it. Also adding up how much it costs YOU to build a guitar is always going to be more than how much it costs Jackson to make a guitar. Even if you value your time at $0, a large manufacturer gets bulk materials discounts out the butt. When you buy a guitar know that the cost to make it was probably ~1/4 of that (after manufacturer and dealer markup).

*What's the big deal about "hand made" anyway? a CNC Router is way more consistent.

[westhemann]

the main thing is this.jackson u.s.a. produces high quality instruments made by well paid luthiers who have pride in their work and excell at making guitars.people are willing to pay for the attention to detail and building materials,not to mention the better hardware and electronics.

  on the other hand you have a whole other set of people who want a guitar made by jackson but can't afford the $3000 plus price tag.so what do they do?they have it built overseas in sweatshops where people who are just working to survive slap them together to a much lower standard as fast as they possibly can.and they do it for wages that me and you would not work for.they also have poorer machinery and cheaper hardware.this enables them to build a guitar dirt cheap and then sell it to you for about $400

Well this isn't really fair is it? A lot of overseas shops have highly trained luthiers who even make guitars *BY HAND**. But they get paid less, partly due to lower standard of living in their countries. That being said, in their countries the amount of $$ they're making is equivalent.

Labor costs, however, are a big part of it. Also adding up how much it costs YOU to build a guitar is always going to be more than how much it costs Jackson to make a guitar. Even if you value your time at $0, a large manufacturer gets bulk materials discounts out the butt. When you buy a guitar know that the cost to make it was probably ~1/4 of that (after manufacturer and dealer markup).

*What's the big deal about "hand made" anyway? a CNC Router is way more consistent.

i am talking about the "sweatshops" used to make the cheap guitars.of course as everyone knows the japanese luthiers at the high end shops are as good as anyone else.it is not a nationality thing it is an economics thing.cadillac and geo are both gm products,but the difference is cadillac is willing to build a better car because some people are willing to pay for it.and i have no problem with cnc popouts.that is just wood shaping.i am talking about better hardware ,electronics,wood choice,and attention to finishing.

i have both korean low end guitars and high end japanese guitars.the korean guitars came with crap tone pots,switches,and piss poor finishing(paint on the binding,rough spots,etc...).not to mention the korean esp which had a good 1/8" between the end of the neck and the neck pocket,or the korean schecter which had the same thing all the way around the neck pocket.

the japanese ibanez is flawless.the wiring was all cut to the proper length and properly soldered.the hardware and electronics were noiseless and worked perfectly all the way up until i traded them for emg.and the fit and finish could not be improved.the fret inlays are actual abalone.and it feels and plays better than any of my other bolt ons,even to this day(10 years after it was made)

and of course you are right about them getting discounts for buying in bulk.the quality of the wood,even thoughit is good on the high end guitars,could stand improvement in my opinion,but THAT is why we build our own guitars.i wish i COULD get pickups and hardware for the prices they get

those highly trained luthiers you speak of overseas?they don't ever build a $400 guitar,now do they?

[GEdwardJones]

i am talking about the "sweatshops" used to make the cheap guitars.of course as everyone knows the japanese luthiers at the high end shops are as good as anyone else.it is not a nationality thing it is an economics thing.cadillac and geo are both gm products,but the difference is cadillac is willing to build a better car because some people are willing to pay for it.and i have no problem with cnc popouts.that is just wood shaping.i am talking about better hardware ,electronics,wood choice,and attention to finishing.

i have both korean low end guitars and high end japanese guitars.the korean guitars came with crap tone pots,switches,and piss poor finishing(paint on the binding,rough spots,etc...).not to mention the korean esp which had a good 1/8" between the end of the neck and the neck pocket,or the korean schecter which had the same thing all the way around the neck pocket.

the japanese ibanez is flawless.the wiring was all cut to the proper length and properly soldered.the hardware and electronics were noiseless and worked perfectly all the way up until i traded them for emg.and the fit and finish could not be improved.the fret inlays are actual abalone.and it feels and plays better than any of my other bolt ons,even to this day(10 years after it was made)

and of course you are right about them getting discounts for buying in bulk.the quality of the wood,even thoughit is good on the high end guitars,could stand improvement in my opinion,but THAT is why we build our own guitars.i wish i COULD get pickups and hardware for the prices they get

those highly trained luthiers you speak of overseas?they don't ever build a $400 guitar,now do they?

Well I was talking about Korea. Truth of the matter is, with the incredible increase in technology the build quality on the best Korean guitars is as good (or better) than the build quality of anything that comes out of Japan or America. Right now, 2003, China is where Korea was 5-10 years ago, Indonesia is where China was.

I won't argue that companies put lower-end components on their Korean goods (that's not always a bad thing. I'll say over and over and over again that the "lower quality" IBZ pickups on my RG7421 are better than the DiMarzios on my RG 7620). But just straight build quality? Seriously, body and neck construction is a wash. You don't believe me, ask anyone who's ever played a Maverick guitar (I've never read a bad thing about them), or Tommy Victor.

[westhemann]

you are correct.the high end korean guitars are good on fit and finish.but those guitars still cost around $1000.i am in love with those esp deluxe ltd's

[the third eye]

the build quality on the best Korean guitars is as good (or better) than the build quality of anything that comes out of Japan or America.

yes, but is the build quality on the best Korean guitars as good (or better) than the build quality of the best Japanese or American guitars?

[westhemann]

i disagree about body and neck construction though.as i mentioned the neck pocket fit is a dead giveaway.and my scecter also had split wood in the control cavity from a careless drill bit.same thing on my fernandez in the trem claw cavity.and the necks are flatsawn,the fret jobs are poor,and the maple on my fernandez has a serious flaw(a small knot)

these guitars are less than 2 years old and i already had to replace all the electronic components due to failure or noisy switches and pots.

[GEdwardJones]

the build quality on the best Korean guitars is as good (or better) than the build quality of anything that comes out of Japan or America.

yes, but is the build quality on the best Korean guitars as good (or better) than the build quality of the best Japanese or American guitars?

No, but those guitars cost two, three times as much as you're going to pay for any Korean guitar anyway.

[westhemann]

the build quality on the best Korean guitars is as good (or better) than the build quality of anything that comes out of Japan or America.

yes, but is the build quality on the best Korean guitars as good (or better) than the build quality of the best Japanese or American guitars?

i don't believe they are.if they weren't cutting corners in some way then they would be charging as much as the japanese ones.

[the third eye]

the build quality on the best Korean guitars is as good (or better) than the build quality of anything that comes out of Japan or America.

yes, but is the build quality on the best Korean guitars as good (or better) than the build quality of the best Japanese or American guitars?

No, but those guitars cost two, three times as much as you're going to pay for any Korean guitar anyway.

too true, but i was only pointing out build quality

[westhemann]

the build quality on the best Korean guitars is as good (or better) than the build quality of anything that comes out of Japan or America.

yes, but is the build quality on the best Korean guitars as good (or better) than the build quality of the best Japanese or American guitars?

No, but those guitars cost two, three times as much as you're going to pay for any Korean guitar anyway.

true,but the question was do you get what you pay for.i think you do IF you shop around and haggle.you can get a top of the line esp, bc rich,or jackson for around $2000.and a top of the line ibanez for around $1500.

p.s. the ibanez is just as good in my opinion

[GEdwardJones]

true,but the question was do you get what you pay for.i think you do IF you shop around and haggle.you can get a top of the line esp, bc rich,or jackson for around $2000.and a top of the line ibanez for around $1500.

p.s. the ibanez is just as good in my opinion

$2000 is still 2x more than the most exspensive Korean guitars. For $1500 I don't know if you're getting much (if any) better quality. For $2K you're probably just getting ripped off

To go back to your car analogy. Sometimes buying something for its brand/country of origin is smarter. But sometimes you get a Cimarron (For those who don't know in the 80s GM decided to make an "entry level" Cadillac. It was a Chevy Cavalier with a Caddy grille. You could buy a Cimarron or you could save several thousand dollars and buy THE EXACT SAME CAR from your Chevy dealer).

[westhemann]

true,but the question was do you get what you pay for.i think you do IF you shop around and haggle.you can get a top of the line esp, bc rich,or jackson  for around $2000.and a top of the line ibanez for around $1500.

p.s. the ibanez is just as good in my opinion

$2000 is still 2x more than the most exspensive Korean guitars. For $1500 I don't know if you're getting much (if any) better quality. For $2K you're probably just getting ripped off

To go back to your car analogy. Sometimes buying something for its brand/country of origin is smarter. But sometimes you get a Cimarron (For those who don't know in the 80s GM decided to make an "entry level" Cadillac. It was a Chevy Cavalier with a Caddy grille. You could buy a Cimarron or you could save several thousand dollars and buy THE EXACT SAME CAR from your Chevy dealer).

they are better quality.i own and have played many.i believe some of the korean guitars ARE a great value.but they simply are not in the same league as the high end japanese or american guitars.and how could you possibly be getting ripped off?you are getting a top quality guitar which will last a lifetime.see if those cheap guitars will make it 20 years without serious problems.

if you want top notch quality,you HAVE to pay for it.it's that simple.you can build your own but you only save because you aren't paying for labor.

if these guitars are no better,then why do so many accomplished musicians play them?

you don't see jackson giving scott ian a korean guitar,now do you?and the reason is they know that the quality is better in the american made jacksons.same goes for esp and bc rich(except in esp's case,the best ones are japanese)

[westhemann]

by the way i have 7 guitars.and the only 2 that don't give me problems are the japanese one and the one i built myself.the rest are low end korean models.in most cases,you do get what you pay for.

[GEdwardJones]

Y'know what? If you can find a $2000 guitar that does everything you want, good for you. For me, I honestly don't see any reason to spend more than $500 on a guitar. Noodling around in a guitar store/playing friends' guitars the $1500 Ibanez to me was NOT a better guitar than the $1000 LTD (truth be told I think LTD has some of the best necks out there. A good neck ALWAYS makes a guitar seem better to me.). Honestly, you yourself said you thought a thousand dollar Ibanez was just as good as a two grand fender. Wouldn't that mean that someone buying a two grand fender is getting ripped off?

Jackson doesn't give Scott Ian a Korean guitar, but Tommy Victor plays a Santana SE (it should be pointed out that TV has ALWAYS played the cheapest guitars).

I have 14 guitars (about half Korean, half Japanese), honestly they ALL give me problems

[westhemann]

i agree the ltd neck is really nice.i will have to wait 10 years to see how mine holds up.and it is true i prefer the $1000 ibanez over the $2000 fender.but i dislike fender immensely.i believe that alot of the ibanez guitars are a great value.even the $1500 neckthru with the lopro 2 and the dimarzios(although i dislike dimarzios)but it has an awesome finish and a great neck.

you got me there on the fender.i don't think any of them are worth $2000.but tsl might disagree with me.i do think gibson and fender have very poor construction standards.but they do have a distinct sound and feel that is tough to reproduce.i do have to admit that the fender strat in my opinion is the greatest blues and country guitar of all time.

but the neck is the only good thing about my ltd.

and of course there are exceptions but i don't know who tommy victor is. so therefore i don't know why he plays the cheap guitars

[westhemann]

oh THAT guy.i only know him as the guy from prong.honestly i think his sound is great but it is fairly easy to reproduce.he also uses cheap amps.he is not exactly a tone freak.and forgive me because i AM a fan of prong but his stuff is very basic

[GEdwardJones]

My thing is this. There are a lot of people out there (especially kids without $$$) who think that if they don't spend AT LEAST $600 - $700 on a guitar that they don't have a good guitar and need to toss it. This is simply not true. There are plenty of great guitars that can be had for way less than that that can stand up to professional gigging and will last a good long time. This is what always ticked me off when they used to have the "Best Value" list from NAMM on Harmony Central. They'd have "$3700 is a GREAT value for this type of guitar!" Who the hell is going to look for a "value" guitar and spend $3700?

If you love your $1500 guitar, that's great. I am genuinely happy that you found something that you dig. But, there are guitars, many of which have similar quality, that can be had for less.

Also, given the sheer amount of people in the industrial/nu-metal scene that have shamelessly ripped off Tommy Victor's sound, the fact that his whole setup costs like $1000 is impressive.