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Guitar prices?


G_urr_A

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It doesn't matter how much you pay for a guitar, or where its built or who built it. Its all in your head and your hands.

I didn't read all of this thread because I've read this discussion a thousand time before, but another thing to consider is artist endorsements. This is another cause of inflation of prices of guitars - royalties. Sorry if I repeated what someone else said.

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Here's my view on some of the markets and production for you guys to throw around. Company's like Segung in China produce 15,000 guitars a month. Not all of them are low end, some run into the 1000's wholesale.

The differences can be seen in most case's from hardware upgrades and finish upgrades easily and some things are not so easy to spot. They built their new factory last year and imported fine luthiers from around China and the world for the high end production models.

A lot of these guitars will end up with names of more popular brands known on the market of course and some are only regional. In a mass market such as this what generally happens (and this pertains to the cost differences) are the better quality pieces of woods go through the same CNC machines but end up over on the training tables for the (we will call them Masters) to work with and train others, while the other pieces continue down the line to produce the low end factory production guitars.

The Master's are in charge of over seeing the setup of the machines so if something starts to go out of spec it may be awhile before it is noticed and you end up with a few guitars that really are POS going down the main production line and out the door. That is why the lower end models are both good and bad depending on what you pick up (and also what an educated player see's so they form a low opinion about these guitars over all in most case's).

For example go into a Guitar Center or Sam Ash and see a pile of 12 or so Squires usually all one color in a circle all standing around a display for sale at $99 plus tax out the door. 1 or more of these might end up being a wonderful guitar right out of the box without even a need for a set-up but at a labor cost for the production line of .80 cents per hour (which is skilled labor in China), chances are it will need a lot of tweaking to play good if your an experienced player. Of course the neck can be anything from quarter sawn to 45 degree angle sawn. That's just the line production models because the Master saw it wasn't worth his time or he already has his quota to work on (which is far less and forgiving by upper management).

For the most part another thing you see (and this is common on every large factory) are the electrostatic poly paint jobs because the industry needs to be able to have 200-400 body's at a shot in the booth to be painted then on to the next booth to be dried using UV which cuts down having people waste time and massive amounts of paint using a spray gun. After all 6 gallons or so of electrostatic shot paint doing 200-400 body's at the same time verse's a gallon, man and gun doing 2-6 guitars doesn't take a genius to figure out which cost's less and uniformity is the key.

Those booth's pump them out so well that in most case's they don't need to be buffed before assembly. The higher end models (picked by the master) of course get the royal treatment again (the guy with the booth, gun and lot's of paint and polish).

On to hardware, some of these guitars such as Argile branded models may end up with high end name brand hardware which brings up the quality even though it is a production line guitar. It is not uncommon to see a Wilkinson trem which makes those guitars play with such ease attached, while other production models will sport class two accessories such as "Licensed by or designed by" product for the hardware. Best example there is a lower end Jackson with a "Duncan Designed" pickup. Easy to spot because it say's it right on the guitars pickup, and the company paid Duncan to design it, not make it but it does give you the idea of a higher quality instrument when looking at it.

The other thing maybe unseen shortcuts in production models that can be fixed if you know what to look for. A good example of this is the old Samick Les Paul bolt on, with flat pole piece humbuckers. Those pickups make the guitars tone even though they are not advertised as to whom they came from because of cost cutting. They are DiMarzio's that ohm out between 8-9 and are usually missing one distinct thing to make them kick butt, that's a good potting which takes an extra step plus time and material. Next time you see one of those for sale around $20-50 because they are not a popular guitar grab it, yank the pups and pot them. You'll see you just scored a set of decent pickups real cheap.

Another thing would be cultural differences such as that in China. The production line factory worker is given a place to live which is usually a dorm, food and also a place to exercise such as a gym (This is part of there agreement). Some have light entertainment as well (TV and Internet) but most don't. They are used to working and living in large family groups (but are not with their family's) and have adapted this over to the high end jobs such as these factory's (yes .80 cents an hour is good in the economy there). Giving the one that works in the factory the opportunity to live and work and exercise in a workplace and still be able to afford sending support to his/her family in another part of the country.

In America most homes will only have 1-2 generations in a family home at any given time (actually living there not visiting). They will also live in several places in their lifetime.

In Europe you may find several generations of a family in the same dwelling that has been in the family for just as many if not more generations. But the modern day European family's are starting a trend to move, which I believe is somewhat influenced by the modern day technical world and communications.

In China you can find the same family dwellings as in Europe, but it goes back far more many century's because that is the way it has always been and with the culture the way it is the modern day advances in machinery and appliances we find as common place are not supported because of cost and also upgrades to these dwellings (not to mention in a culture as old as China's it is far more expensive to import and adapt then stay with traditional old ways of doing things to keep alive).

Anyway depending on the country and factory you will see differences. The examples I gave are known and little known facts depending on your level in the industry. Have fun and Congradulations's on making the upgrade to Advanced Wes :D

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thanks brian.

derek the reason regulation is not usually a good thing is that you have a few people deciding what the many need.that cuts down creativity and individuality.

but the main thing is that things are not as rosy as you paint them.there are many(and i mean many)people out there who are dirt poor and can't afford a $400 dollar guitar.i know because i used to be one of them.

without getting into a sob story i will tell you that i grew up in a single parent family in a small town in the 80s when the economy in this area was piss poor.my mother was not very industrious and we(my two sisters and i)always got the short end of everything.i was dying to play the guitar by the age of 14 but i had no way to get the money for one except by working for my grandfather cleaning out septic tanks for $10 a piece(that was my share)

so you can imagine that it takes quite a while to save money up when you do maybe 2 tanks in a good week.

so i was 18 before i got my first guitar.i put it together from an old body that my cousin gave me.it wouldn't even play through an amp and i didn't have one anyways.

when i finished high school i went right to work and before long bought me a decent guitar and a really crappy amp.now i have the money to get what i want but it took 10 years to get to this point.

for someone who has parents with money it is hard to understand that for some people,there IS no treasure trove of money to be had for the begging.my mother could not have bought me a guitar even if she had wanted to,and she didn't want to.to this day she considers it a waste of time and a toy.

what i am trying to say is there is a need for the $99 bc rich warlock.some people can't afford to be picky

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i agree with you wes,

however a small point nobody has mentioned is that if there actually was no lower end market, the higher end guitar's prices would drop dramatically :D

Not true. A slab of mahogony costs more than a piece of nato/alder plywood. If you remove the plywood that won't necessarily have any bearing whatsoever on the cost of mahogony.

If there were no low-end guitars the only thing that would happen is that people would start making low end guitars.

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I just thought I'd point out (as a bit of a continuation/explanation of what Brian said) that living costs in China are rediculously low (compared to the exchange rate for Chinese money). I was with my dad on a business trip to China last fall, and we found a cool little resturant. We got a good (by good I mean both big enough and well-cooked) meal including beverages for what is approximately $5. And that's for 2 people. A corresponding meal here in Sweden would be around $25 (at least $5 of that are the beverages). Because Sweden has a much higher level of minimum costs (partially because of regulations of living).

Also, yes, there is a need for the cheap guitars. Even though my family has a relatively good economy, my parents don't want me to assume that I can just get things every now and then, so they give me the child support that the government pays them, but I gotta buy anything I need myself. So buying a $400 guitar was something I thought about for a LONG, LONG time. What if I'd loose interest? What if it wasn't as much better as I was hoping? By having bought a much cheaper guitar, and had that for some time, I had proven to myself that I was seriously interested in playing guitar, which made me buy the more expensive guitar. And it was what I hoped.

Interesting, this thread got quite long.

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ok... 40 minutes of reading and now i got something to chew on :D

GEdwards - that sounds like a pretty crappy deal on the car if it was in such a good condition, i woulda just kept the car dude. But cars and well built guitars are completely different. Used cars (with the exception of like a 1965 rolls roice, or collectors item Delorian) are called lemons for a reason. Everyone knows that a car depretiates the moment it's driven off the sales lot. And dealers usualy give less then reasonable exchange values, cause they have to sell the car and still make a profit. I woulda tried to sell it privately or to some friens that needed a car B) But, i wasn't there, and i'm only 20 so maybe i'm wrong.

Taking out all the low end guitars WOULD IMO affect the prices of the medium to higher end guitars, i'm not saying a 2000$ guitar would now cost 600$, but prices would most likely shift downwards to fill the gap somewhat. supply and demand dude, (now that i think about it this would make a GREAT thesis paper for my Economics degree) but i don't want to get all technical as it's still the summer and i just don't want to go there.... BUT i'm not saying that ALL low end guitars suck, brian made a very good point that out of a lot of 20 squires in a store u might pick up 1 or 2 that feel great, i mean i personaly own 2 squires that i love, but i had to play pretty much every guitar in sed stores to find them.

The whole regulation idea wasn't meant to limit guitar design's just ensure that certain things are being done. Like only quatersawn or laminated equivelant lumber for necks. better fail safes on production lines and more inspection points to ensure that quality stay up, so that some don't "slip out the door" as brian said. Maybe like a certain minimum requirement for painting techniques basecaots, top coats etc. Basicly just a base set of rules or guildlines from which to START building or designing. I personaly think this would be a great idea, cause then those kids that buy "cheap" guitars which i will reffer to as "base" guitars in my little scienario, could simply upgrade the hardware, pickups, and maybe get buffing or new clear on the guitar and have a decent high end guitar, without having to worry about the craftsmanship that they can't see, or the quality of the lumber.

A good example of well made or "base" guitars would be the squires from the 80's from.... japan i beleive it was? my uncle has one of these, and i can personaly say, along with a large number of people on the net that i have read about, that these guitars were made, just as good if not better then the high end american strats. just slap some "authentic" american standard, or texas special pickups in there and u had the real thing. i don't want to shovel to much **** here, but i've had conversations with luthiers here that have heard and thought the same thing having played those guitars. Basicly they just made to good a copy of the guitar, once the guys in the head fender office realized this the factory was eventually shut down cause it was affecting the sales of the american made strats. But again, that's just what i heard...

As for "piss poor" people, well i do unfortunetly come from a fairly well off family :D so i probably am kind of bias, but i am trying to keep an open mind. Idealy i'd like to have the "perfect" society free of pauverty (ya ya i watch to much Star Trek the next generation). BUT... if u look at it from this point, parents buy Timmy a "base" guitar for say 200-300$... then he gets good, he needs only spend an additional 200-300$ to upgrade the guitar to meet his growing player needs. Where as had he baught a "cheap" 99$ guitar, he would most likley want to go out and spend 600-800$ for a medium to high end guitar. Now if my math skills are still sharp, in the long run, the base guitar ends up costing less (depending on how many bells and whisels u upgrade). But it does still cost more intialy, BUT (yes i use that to much) then getting back to the resell value, seens how it's a "base" guitar, that's to say a well built guitar with no whisels, instead of the more probable POS "cheap" guitar, u'd probably have better luck getting like 100$ for it if "timmy" lost interest after a year or two.

and yes, it costs less to live in china then north america.

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GEdwards - that sounds like a pretty crappy deal on the car if it was in such a good condition, i woulda just kept the car dude.

It's Edward, not EdwardS. "G. Edward Jones, Jr." People always make that mistake. *sigh* Also, keeping the car would've meant paying for a car that no longer fit our needs (that being hauling around two dogs with a combined weight of around 140lbs). Also, the Blue Book private sale value was still only $14K. The depreciation on a car is no joke.

Taking out all the low end guitars WOULD IMO affect the prices of the medium to higher end guitars, i'm not saying a 2000$ guitar would now cost 600$, but prices would most likely shift downwards to fill the gap somewhat.

Yes, somewhat. You'd still leave people who can't afford a mid-line instrument out in the cold. There is no way around that. Some people can only afford a $99 guitar. Under your plan those people will all be screwed.

The whole regulation idea wasn't meant to limit guitar design's just ensure that certain things are being done. Like only quatersawn or laminated equivelant lumber for necks. better fail safes on production lines and more inspection points to ensure that quality stay up, so that some don't "slip out the door" as brian said. Maybe like a certain minimum requirement for painting techniques basecaots, top coats etc. Basicly just a base set of rules or guildlines from which to START building or designing. I personaly think this would be a great idea, cause then those kids that buy "cheap" guitars which i will reffer to as "base" guitars in my little scienario, could simply upgrade the hardware, pickups, and maybe get buffing or new clear on the guitar and have a decent high end guitar, without having to worry about the craftsmanship that they can't see, or the quality of the lumber.

And once you add cost of higher grade materials to the cost of the independent verification body to the cost of your "base" guitars the price will not drop, it might, in fact, rise slightly (at least in the short run).

As for "piss poor" people, well i do unfortunetly come from a fairly well off family sad.gif so i probably am kind of bias, but i am trying to keep an open mind. Idealy i'd like to have the "perfect" society free of pauverty (ya ya i watch to much Star Trek the next generation). BUT... if u look at it from this point, parents buy Timmy a "base" guitar for say 200-300$

Your first mistake is the assumption that everyone has $200 - $300 to spend on a guitar. My first guitar was a Global bass that I got from JC Penny for $50. My second guitar was a Cort that I got from Sears for $70. My family wasn't poor, my parents were just wholly unwilling to make a large outlay in cash until I proved that I'd stick to the guitar. A lot of people don't have that kind of flexibility and I might not be playing the guitar now if my parents had to spend the extra cash for a guitar and maybe have been able to sell it.

So let's do a theoretical here. Little Timmy buys a $99 Epi Les Paul Special Jr. It's made out of plywood, but it sounds pretty good and it's pretty dependable (I know because I have a regular old Epi Special). This is a guitar which isn't going to break the bank and, could theoretically be gigged with. I've read lots of pros saying how cool a guitar these are.

In your world this guitar doesn't exist. The cheap, but good guitar that requires very little cash outlay but won't be outgrown quickly. There's a reason that most people don't buy cars in cash, because a $15K initial outlay isn't feasible while spending an extra couple of grand over the course of several years won't break the bank.

Your idea is nice and all, but it basically stops a large percentage of the population from being able to buy a guitar at all. There's a reason they make $99 guitars, because people buy them and some of those people don't have much of a choice.

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ya missed the 2 parts that cover ur arguments :D

but i'm just saying, i've had more then a few people come to me with they're 99$ guitar's wishing they'd never baught them and begging me to set them up, or fix them, or SOMETHINGbut most of the time it's just like.... well u need a new.......hmmm...... everything.... and it really discourages people from playing when they're first guitar was a nightmare to play cause they're parents just baught the best looking deal in the music stores window.

yes, to a certain point my theory makes it impossible for certain people to own a guitar. but like i said above, some of them end up hating guitars cause they're to hard to play, ironically, due to the fact that the guitar was scaled down to meet they're monetary needs.

I mean alot of people can't afford a car, does that mean they should be able to go buy a 200$ car from billy bob down the road that probably doesn't have brakes that work properly and seat belts made out of old leather belts and some rope???

What about sky diving? most people don't get to do that? Should they have cheap planes, and cheap parachutes so that everyone gets to try it out!?!?! There might be alot of dead people by the end of the day, but at least they got to try it!!!

That's an extreme and kinda harsh example i realize, but u catching my drift?

There comes a point where u just have to a draw a line, what i'm trying to say is that there is no line for guitars. and that these less unfortunet people are probably better off either saving up, playing a friends guitar (which we have completely overlooked), or not playing at all.

I guess a compermise would be educating the entire potential guitar player/buyer public about what beginner guitar's are really a "deal" a which ones aren't. Which is the purpose of having sales people in music stores, but, sometimes they can be led to the dark side by, quota's, contracts, commision, and just plaing trying to make room for next year's or month's line of guitars coming in.

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the reason guitars don't need to e regulated is because

a)a faulty guitar is not going to blow up and kill someone.it is in reality a danger to noone.

b)the market already takes care of the quality issues ,to an extent.

and i am sorry but the $99 bc rich warlock is super easy to play.it just sounds like crap(IMO)

the cheaper the better for a beginner.let them take that $99 bc rich and find out if they have the talent.your argument is faulty for the simple reason that more people become discouraged through the inability to afford a guitar than become discouraged because it is "hard to play"

and no i don't "catch your drift".your drift does not take into consideration people like i was who are willing to play any kind of crap they can afford just to learn.

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ya missed the 2 parts that cover ur arguments

No I didn't. You stated that your idea had a greater upfront cost but might be cheaper in the long run. I said that the greater upfront cost is an insurmountable barrier to some people.

but i'm just saying, i've had more then a few people come to me with they're 99$ guitar's wishing they'd never baught them and begging me to set them up, or fix them, or SOMETHINGbut most of the time it's just like.... well u need a new.......hmmm...... everything.... and it really discourages people from playing when they're first guitar was a nightmare to play cause they're parents just baught the best looking deal in the music stores window.

That still doesn't address the people who can only afford "The best deal in the music store window." I'll put it this way, I don't have any desire to own a Kia. Kia's do not have the features that I'm looking for in a car at this point in my life. I do not, however, suggest that no one should be able to buy a car less exspensive than a Honda Civic.

yes, to a certain point my theory makes it impossible for certain people to own a guitar. but like i said above, some of them end up hating guitars cause they're to hard to play, ironically, due to the fact that the guitar was scaled down to meet they're monetary needs.

And some people end up loving playing guitar because of their crappy first guitar. I know I did. So you'd rather take away someone's ability to make ANY choice because some people made a bad choice?

I mean alot of people can't afford a car, does that mean they should be able to go buy a 200$ car from billy bob down the road that probably doesn't have brakes that work properly and seat belts made out of old leather belts and some rope???

Well, given that the car you described is dangerous to the point of being deadly then no. Your idea is more like saying that they couldn't buy a $200 car because the A/C is busted and it doesn't have power windows.

That's an extreme and kinda harsh example i realize, but u catching my drift?

You're either saying that guitars kill people or poor people shouldn't be given the opportunity to do stuff. Either way pricing something out of the reach of a group of people so that people *WHO COULD AFFORD HIGHER QUALITY GOODS ANYWAY* don't have to worry about having to pay attention to what they buy is disturbing to me.

There comes a point where u just have to a draw a line, what i'm trying to say is that there is no line for guitars. and that these less unfortunet people are probably better off either saving up, playing a friends guitar (which we have completely overlooked), or not playing at all.

For the first four years of my serious guitar playing life I had exactly 0 frieneds who played guitar. For the next three I had exactly 1. The part where you say "you don't have money, so you're better off just not playing guitar." Yeah, ok, I'm trying to keep this civil. but, seriously, that's a jacked up attitude.

I guess a compermise would be educating the entire potential guitar player/buyer public about what beginner guitar's are really a "deal" a which ones aren't. Which is the purpose of having sales people in music stores, but, sometimes they can be led to the dark side by, quota's, contracts, commision, and just plaing trying to make room for next year's or month's line of guitars coming in.

There is one universal truth, if you get four guitar players in a room together three of them will disagree on what constitutes a "good" guitar.

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There comes a point where u just have to a draw a line, what i'm trying to say is that there is no line for guitars. and that these less unfortunet people are probably better off either saving up, playing a friends guitar (which we have completely overlooked), or not playing at all.

For the first four years of my serious guitar playing life I had exactly 0 frieneds who played guitar. For the next three I had exactly 1. The part where you say "you don't have money, so you're better off just not playing guitar." Yeah, ok, I'm trying to keep this civil. but, seriously, that's a jacked up attitude.

if u read! it says "save up"

man... u guys need to chill, and stop trying to eat me alive...

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don't take it that way.i am chill.you are getting the same response anyone else would.i got no problem with you.

but i would like to try and educate you on being poor.i mean really poor.there IS no hope of saving up when you are poor and live in a poor neighborhood.try to understand that my mother's income when i was a child was about $200 per month.without my grandparents i don't know how we would have made it.we were kids and we had no choice but to be poor.my mother made that choice for us.as soon as i finished high school(in spite of my mother telling me on a daily basis to quit and get a job)i went out and went to work.and i mean WORK!i spent 5 years with a steel erection company traveling around the country working 7 days a week,12 hours a day.i thought i was rich and i spent everything on eating out and living good because i had never experienced it.it has taken me the last ten years to learn how to manage money properly.i only tell you this so you know that as soon as i had a choice i went out and earned a living.

i really think you have a hard time understanding what poor is.i am talking about a kid who never even saw $5 of my own until i hit about 16 and could go to work for my grandpa.my allowance until then was $1 a week.

that first guitar i bought?it cost me a grand total of $20 to build and the only reason i had that much money was because i found a lost wallet and kept it.embarressing but there you have it.

"save up?"

save up what?

unfortunately even the $99 bc rich would have been out of reach for me.but there are people who have JUST ENOUGH money to spare to buy that guitar for their child .i would not deny them that.

now i make good money at my job and i have NOONE to thank but me.i didn't learn my work ethic from my mom that's for sure!

when i was in high school for my birthday all my friends got together without me knowing it and took up a collection to get me an amp.they collected over $300 at my small,poor high school because everyone enjoyed my guitar playing and knew i could not afford one.we used to play parties and i would play an extra amp that my friend had.it wasactually a peavey mixer but it did the job.that birthday present was the nicest thing anyone had ever done for me and it embarressed me to death but i accepted it as gracefully as i could and was grateful.

these things are VERY embarressing to admit but i think you need to know.it is a very good thing that your parents brought you up with some money.but the next time you think about your school years maybe you will remember that kid that everyone harrassed because he/she was poor.and maybe you will realize that it was not their fault.they couldn't help it.they were stuck with a poor family.ever make fun of anyone for the brand of sneakers they wore?ever see anyone else do it?that is what i am talking about and that is why people need cheap guitars.the cheaper the better.

just so everyone knows where i stand.

1)guitars should be available at every price range

2)you get what you pay for

3)being poor is not a character flaw

4)and yes gedward i still believe high end guitars are better quality

5)i am the most stubborn person in the world!ask my mother :D

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There comes a point where u just have to a draw a line, what i'm trying to say is that there is no line for guitars. and that these less unfortunet people are probably better off either saving up, playing a friends guitar (which we have completely overlooked), or not playing at all.

For the first four years of my serious guitar playing life I had exactly 0 frieneds who played guitar. For the next three I had exactly 1. The part where you say "you don't have money, so you're better off just not playing guitar." Yeah, ok, I'm trying to keep this civil. but, seriously, that's a jacked up attitude.

if u read! it says "save up"

man... u guys need to chill, and stop trying to eat me alive...

You ever hear the phrase "It takes a buck to make a buck"? Saving up is hard, especially if you don't have anything to start with.

I'm not trying to eat you alive. I'm just pointing out the logical flaws in your argument. Trust me, if I was trying to eat you alive you'd have run screaming a long time ago.

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lol i think we're all a bit of #5 wes, and ya i do have trouble understanding B) but that got the point across, i don't want to deny anyone anything (let alone guitar) or get anyone here thinking that i think poor poeople are inferrior in some way nor that i'm trying to shove them off in some stereopical group, quite the oposite, i just wish u could get a better quality guitar for less money, it just agervates me that the less u pay, the lower the quality gets :D

that's it, no argument, no prejudice

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1)guitars should be available at every price range

2)you get what you pay for

3)being poor is not a character flaw

4)and yes gedward i still believe high end guitars are better quality

5)i am the most stubborn person in the world!ask my mother B)

1. Absolutely

2. Eh, sometimes you get a deal, sometimes you get ripped off.

3. You're damn straight it's not.

4. Mostly we're arguing over waht's "high end" I think. Also I don't think we have the same definition of "quality"

5. Only because she doesn't know me :D

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  i just wish u could get a better quality guitar for less money, it just agervates me that the less u pay, the lower the quality gets :D

that's it, no argument, no prejudice

okay.a $400 vs a $800 guitar.i believe there is no discernable difference in build quality,only hardware.$800 vs $1500 better build quality,same hardware.above $1500,premium build quality,premium hardware.that is what i believe to be generally true.

below $400 are what i consider low end guitars.they build them with affordability in mind more than quality.

above $1500 are what i consider high end guitars.no consideration for affordability,they are trying to build the best guitars money can buy.that is what i believe and that is the way it should be.

and derek i don't believe you are prejudiced.it is just hard to understand what you have not experienced.we are all guilty of not understanding other people from time to time.in a perfect world no one would be too poor to afford a guitar.but until then we will just have to accept walking into a guitar store and seeing that crap $99 bc rich hanging on the wall.

want to hear something funny?my very first dream guitar that i would have given anything to have was that very same crap bc rich warlock.same hardware,same electronics,same build quality.only difference?the cheapest you could get it new was $270!!!!!

gedward is right about the quality vs price changing for the better.that is a good thing.but i would still rather put my money into the pocket of a custom builder.

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I'd been following this thread with some interest, and then i got my used gear update from Elderly this morning, and figured I had to share - check out these two:

EPIPHONE LES PAUL ES

EPIPHONE LES PAUL CUSTOM (1998)

So, can somebody tell me when (and why) $400+ became a reasonable price for an Indonesian LP copy? I thought Jay Turser's were worth about half that.

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I'd been following this thread with some interest, and then i got my used gear update from Elderly this morning, and figured I had to share - check out these two:

EPIPHONE LES PAUL ES

EPIPHONE LES PAUL CUSTOM (1998)

So, can somebody tell me when (and why) $400+ became a reasonable price for an Indonesian LP copy? I thought Jay Turser's were worth about half that.

It's quite simple, really. Supply and demand. That's the price at which they can bring in the most money from that axe (based on their marketing research), so that's the price it gets...

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