My First Acousitc

[Daniel Sorbera]

It's finally time to build my first acousitc guitar. I don't really think I wan't to deal with side bending at this time so I'm going to order the pre bent sides from stewmac (I think, anyone want to talk me out of this?). Here is a list of parts. Take a look and see if I'm missing anything.

Bridge stock, ebony

Kerfed Guitar Linings, mahogany

Brace material

Mahogany Neck Blank

Tailblock, mahogany

Neck Block, mahogany

Maple binding

Peghead Overlay Veneer - Ebony

Bone Nut

Rosette

Bone Saddle

Grover Rotomatics - Nickel, 3L/3R

Dreadnought Indian Rosewood Back and Bent Side Set - Grade AAA (from stewmac)

Hot Rod truss rod

Dreadnought Engelmann Spruce Soundboard - Master grade (from stewmac)

Martin 25.34" Scale Fingerboard (preslotted) - Ebony

Bridge Plate Stock

Bridge Pins

Frets strap buttons etc

Total price $450 not too bad at all

I have Cumpianos book and of course this place and mimf.

Any thoughts on body shape? If I get the pre bent sides from stewmac it will be dreadnought but if I bend the sides I might wan't a smaller more curvy shape such as some of the stuff from avalon. Whats your opinions on that?

Edited September 29, 2006 by Godin SD

[fryovanni]

Godin,

I think you have a pretty good list worked up. I have opinions on the wood of course, but I am going to keep the opinions to myself(nothing really wrong with your choices). There are several jigs, molds, and radiused forms that are extreamly helpful. I fully believe you can make them yourself as opposed to buying them(retail can get spendy on all of them). I will give you a list below. As far as bending sides. Honestly itis up to you. Again I know you are more than capable of making a side bender and using it (cost of parts is about $60-ish to $200 depending on how you build it). Build the shape you want, a non-cut model is going to be more straight forward (but again I know you are capable of either).

Bridge template

Bridge slotting jig

Bridge pin reamer

Circle cutter or router jig(for rosette)

Brace radiusing router jig (two sided, top and back radius)

radiused dishes, top and back radius

back shape transfer jig (used with suspended dish)

Shooting board and plane (thickness sander if ya have one)

bridge locating jig

Take a look over at the OLF in their jig section click

And here-click

Just for kicks look at Bob C.'s site for wood. Extreamly knowledgable, high quality, helpful (even though I don't need to buy from him I have the highest respect for his quality and service)-click

Nifty jigs and tools(maybe some more ideas)-click

Also look over at Allied. They have great bridge pins. I really love their truss rods (only kind I use nowadays). Very good outfit.

I buy very little from Stew Mac in the way of acoustic parts. Some parts from LMI (again very little). Some from Allied. I have all the wood I need and make most all my own parts from stock, but I would opt for the great quality and variety of smaller dealers like RC Tonewoods for wood.

I think you will get a real kick out of building an acoustic . Have fun with it and let me know if I can help you in any way.

Peace,Rich

[Daniel Sorbera]

Thanks Rich.

I think I have decided to buy good wood, bend my own sides, and build all the little parts myself.

I was looking at rctonewoods site and the ziricote looks really really nice. What do you think of Ziricotes workability/bendability/sound?

[fryovanni]

Zircote is a very cool looking wood. It is a bit more difficult to work with I would compair it to a cross between EIR and Mac. Ebony in terms of workability. It bends pretty good, but you need to be sure to get it hat enough. Not quite as brittle as Ebony, but bend slowly. Mattia called it Mexican Crack wood one time (I got a kick out of that). It does have a rep. for cracking and splitting during the drying process. It polishes like a dream. When you use stiffer denser woods remember you need to thin it a bit more for good bending (don't go by what a book tells you, feel the wood start to flex as you thin and use that as your guide). If you try to bend it to thick you are very likely to have trouble heating, bending and good chance it will crack(this is true of all woods- each has a sweet spot). You could ask Bob to thickness the sides for you (I am confident he would get you very close to where you need to be, and I am sure he would not charge much). If you have a thickness sander you can do it yourself very easily, and get it just right. As far as sound, it seems to tap like most Rosewoods maybe a bit more punchy (describing tone is very subjective, and back and side wood is a small part of the sound you will get more like a hint of color- Design and shape are #1, Soundboard and bracing #2)

If I might make a suggestion- Buy your kerfing pre-cut. I do make my own (but I am a moron , and as soon as my stock is gone I will start buying mine- just a lot of trouble). All other parts are just fine to make, and will save you quite a bit.

Peace,Rich

P.S. I forgot to ask/mention, If you don't already have a good thickness caliper go pick one up. All your measurements are going to be much closer (thousands will count) .

[Daniel Sorbera]

If I might make a suggestion- Buy your kerfing pre-cut. I do make my own (but I am a moron blink.gif , and as soon as my stock is gone I will start buying mine- just a lot of trouble). All other parts are just fine to make, and will save you quite a bit.

Peace,Rich

P.S. I forgot to ask/mention, If you don't already have a good thickness caliper go pick one up. All your measurements are going to be much closer (thousands will count) peace.gif .

First of all thank you so much for your help. So kerfed lining it is. BTW I have some really nice $80 digital calipers that work in fractions of millimeters.

After looking around I think for my first guitar I'm going with rosewood back and sitka spruce top. I like the sound of rosewood/sirka and it's cheaper/easier to work than zircote. Maybe for my second or third I'll do zircote with bearclaw top and crazy abalone binding. But for now I'll just keep the design simple and focus on sound and building technique.

I'll be ordering the wood later today (if gilmer takes orders on saturday ) and will post pics documenting the build step by step (more to ask for help than anything )

Edited October 2, 2006 by Godin SD

[Daniel Sorbera]

Alright I finally got around to ordering the wood. I ended up getting it from gilmer because they had the kind of wood I wanted and it was cheaper than rc. I'm sure I'll order some nice sets from rc in the future.

the rosewood back

The sitka top

the mahogany neck (far right)

I've also decided on a body shape. martin M. It's as big as a dreadnought but has a diffrent (more pleasing to me) shape. I think I will be attempting a cutaway, I'll have to see how the bending goes. It's going to be a pretty simple design, flame maple binding with bwb purfling (on neck and headstock too) and the same treatment for the rosette. It will have an uninlayed ebony fingerboard a gloss (probably nitro) finish with the neck being stained dark mahogany than shot with satin clear.

This week I'm working to get pauls guitar done (it will be done before the end of the week ) and next week I'm working in marble falls trimming out an expensive house so I won't get to building for at least two weeks. Thats fine though as it will give the wood time to aclimate to my shop. In all likleyhood I won't start building for at least a month.

I'll post pics of the wood when it comes in.

Edited October 2, 2006 by Godin SD

[fryovanni]

You will have a little more work ahead of you surfacing and thicknessing(do you have a thickness sander?) Gilmers stock, but the wood is good. You should re-saw a few strips of wood to get the feel of bending before you hit your guitar wood (you will get good at it after a couple bends). If you try to bend the cutaway in one shot (as opposed to a florentine style) be sure you are feeling good about bending the tight curves before you attack that bend.

Sounds like you have a great project lined up. I can't wait to see how it goes for you.

Peace,Rich

[Daniel Sorbera]

You will have a little more work ahead of you surfacing and thicknessing(do you have a thickness sander?) Gilmers stock, but the wood is good.

I don't have one but I use a local cabinet makers. He has a big 48" one that is very accurate.

Okay now for some sound questions. I'm going with the martin M body and I wan't a nice full sound that will sound good strummed and good single line picked. What are the rules with bracing? Thicker bracing = brighter sound? or what? Should I go with traditional martin style bracing or something more experiemental. One thing that really intrigued me was your double x bracing, pic. Will something like that give me a warmer tone or a brighter tone?

Do you have any links that will help me understand how the bracing/plate thickness effects sound?

Edited October 2, 2006 by Godin SD

[fryovanni]

You will have a little more work ahead of you surfacing and thicknessing(do you have a thickness sander?) Gilmers stock, but the wood is good.

I don't have one but I use a local cabinet makers. He has a big 48" one that is very accurate.

Okay now for some sound questions. I'm going with the martin M body and I wan't a nice full sound that will sound good strummed and good single line picked. What are the rules with bracing? Thicker bracing = brighter sound? or what? Should I go with traditional martin style bracing or something more experiemental. One thing that really intrigued me was your double x bracing, pic. Will something like that give me a warmer tone or a brighter tone?

Do you have any links that will help me understand how the bracing/plate thickness effects sound?

Cool, A thickness sander makes things much easier.

Now you are asking a big question. Each body size/shape/depth has it's own sound. Generally larger is more capable in the bass freq. (no real suprise). Of course the larger the body the more that will be asked of the bracing (again no suprise). If you get into Asymetric body shapes and designs that are designed to effect the bass/ treble seperation. I am not much help (I am not well versed in that area- Myka was giving some info a while back and may be able to point you in the right direction). As far as bracing design. X-bracing has proven itself with good results and is a good method. There are many different ways you can go about bracing and there are a LOT of opinions about what design has the most efficient and best responce. For your first I would not get too deep into the "theoretical" or put too much stock in any one opinion (as I am giving you mine ). The X has features I like very much It holds the radius cleanly, and is very simple. It is not hard to refine or shape either. Double X is not much of an evolution per. say, but for me is nice when you have a little extra width in the body. Your goal is going to simply be to create the lightest most responsive top without risking deformation or failure. When making your bracing you have the option of scalloping or not, Cross drilling, tapered or not, I-Beam style, carbon reinforcement snd so forth. In general taller (possibly heavier) bracing can give better treble responce, and scalloped is generally thought to give a little better bass responce. Bass is the challenge. The thickness of the top itself is very important. It is more about getting the thickness down based on how stiff the wood is and thus cut weight, but still have enough strength to allow the bracing to bring it back to being structurally sound. It is all a balancing game and each top needs to be treated a little differently to get the most out of it. Sooooo.........

Guys that have done this Jump in and offer sugestions or critiques on my suggestion here.

So here is what I would do. If I were in your shoes.

Bracing-

A:Standard X (start per. books recomendations). Adjust bracing by shaping.

B;Double X- Main X keep it similar to standard (by the book). Lower X and other secondary I like start with bracing that is about 1/8" narrower and maybe 1/4" taller (generally tall and thinner). This will allow you to adjust and fine tune easier. Transverse as per. the book.

*Be sure to cap your X brace joints.

Thickness/joining

1. Join your top set. Then cut your ruff shape.

2. Evaluate the stiffness(probably hard to do if you have no point of reference). I am going to bet that is a fairly stiff set of Sitka(knowing where you got it). If you can try to make a mental note as to how that set feels when you flex it. (If you ever get a chance, maybe at a show or something flex your way through some stacks of soundboards to get a feel for average,low, and high stiffness.).

3.Surface sand the best looking side of the set till it is clean.

4.Remove thickness fron the opposite side down to about .105" and feel the stiffness. Remove additional material @ .003" per. pass flexing after each pass until it feels like it "loosens" up. You should notice the change (but go no thinner than .087"- Just to be safe, As I would rather you not go too far).

5. Attach your bracing.

Shaping

1. Tap around your soundbaord and take mental note as to the sound. You should notice it is notably tight sounding.

2.Begin your shaping by tapering the bracing sides. Do not taper all the way up to your caps on the X joints.

3. Tap around the board and listen for changes in sound. Most likely the change will be notable but not substantial. Take note of how even the board sounds around the outer edges.

4. So at this point you have removed a bit of the mass, but by leaving most ofthe height you are not hearing a huge change in flexability. The next thing I work on is the removing some of the heigh, and possibly some scalloping(if you are going that direction). I prefer to start by bringing down the outer ends of the braces. I will generally taper the ends down to about 1/8" and depending on the brace the taper starts 2-3" from the outer edge(my final taper is thinner than this so you are still ruff shaping). Again tap around a bit and listen to what is changing.

5. Next I will focus on the second taper or scallops on the main X. This time connecting the outer taper you just did back tward the main X crossing. This will vary a bit depending on whether you want taller skinny bracing or scallops. You need to start listening closer for changes in flexability as that is going to guide you from here on out. Listen for the change and then move back to the outer tapers and balance it out. Then evaluate if it is far enough. You may choose to leave the bass side(for lack of a better term slightly stiffer).

6. As you are evaluating the flexabilty.Remember you want to take it a step looser than you will actually want it. The top will stiffen back up when it is attached to the rim. I wish I could give you a better reference to work with, but honestly it is something you just have to do and learn from experience, and refering to past work (you really get a feel for it). It may even be fun for you to pik up a student grade $5-$10 soundboard and brace it for the experience. It only takes about 30min. to an hour to go through the process. So an extra practice run shouldn't be too time consuming.

I really hope some other guys drop their 2 cents here. There are a lot of methods and mine may not be best for you. I know I prefer to look at a few different angles before I choose the direction I go with something.

END OF LONG REPLY

Peace,Rich

Edited October 3, 2006 by fryovanni

[Daniel Sorbera]

That is awesome. Thank you so much for taking your time to help me out.

[Mattia]

Small note: you might want to use a rosewood bridge, rather than an ebony one. Ebony has high damping and it's pretty darn heavy. It'll tend to kill the higher frequencies somewhat, and since the bridge is already the largest and heaviest brace on the top (it IS a brace, and it's generally heavier than all the other bracing put together), if you want to build a little light, use something else. An M-ish sized body (which is a little bigger than an OM, little smaller than a dred, IIRC) should have plenty of bass to go around, no need to try to emphasize it by sacrificing trebles and some mids, which may leave you with a 'thinner' sound than you might hope for.

As for bracing, symmetrical bracing systems tend to be pretty successful (double-X like Rich's, or like Gibson's old models, although I suspect the fact they weren't great instruments is what gives them a bad name; there's also the Larrivee style with two horizontal tone bars), although you can't go far wrong with good old-fashioned Martin-style X bracing. Going with a relatively tried and tested design on your first (nothing too crazy) is a good recipe for a successful instrument.

[Daniel Sorbera]

Small note: you might want to use a rosewood bridge, rather than an ebony one. Ebony has high damping and it's pretty darn heavy. It'll tend to kill the higher frequencies somewhat, and since the bridge is already the largest and heaviest brace on the top (it IS a brace, and it's generally heavier than all the other bracing put together), if you want to build a little light, use something else. An M-ish sized body (which is a little bigger than an OM, little smaller than a dred, IIRC) should have plenty of bass to go around, no need to try to emphasize it by sacrificing trebles and some mids, which may leave you with a 'thinner' sound than you might hope for.

I never thought about it that way. Rosewood it is.

and BTW an M is the exact size of a dread (even 1/4" bigger on the lower bout and length) but is a bit shallower.

It may even be fun for you to pik up a student grade $5-$10 soundboard and brace it for the experience. It only takes about 30min. to an hour to go through the process. So an extra practice run shouldn't be too time consuming.

I think that sounds like some very wise advice.

Edited October 4, 2006 by Godin SD

[Daniel Sorbera]

The wood just arrived and I'm so excited It looks soooo much better than the pics and that rosewood smell is intoxicating. The top is perfectly quartersawn and has really tight grain. There is even some bearclaw in there. The rosewood back is the most amazing thing I've ever seen.

I'll give the wood till at least next week before I start building. Building acoustics is so much more fun than electrics (and I have not really even started yet! )

PS, Do you think I should start a thread in the In progress work section? Or just post progress pics here?

[NJD]

that rosewood smell is intoxicating.

I used rosewood for a fretboard before and can remember thinking it smelled like cats pee oh well!! maybe a cat had actually pee'd on my piece!

[Daniel Sorbera]

I just got the wood thickness sanded and it looks amazing! The spruce has nice even grain all the way across the top and tons of nice looking rays. The rosewood has some of the most amazing looking grain I've ever seen! I'll post some pics soon.

[fryovanni]

I just got the wood thickness sanded and it looks amazing! The spruce has nice even grain all the way across the top and tons of nice looking rays. The rosewood has some of the most amazing looking grain I've ever seen! I'll post some pics soon.

[Daniel Sorbera]

Oaky I have some pics up. I got a nice invisiable joint with the handplane. There is some light bearclaw in the sitka that makes it look really interesting.

pic2

pic3

pic4

As you can see in that last pic the rosewood has rays or flame or whatever it is. I'm not sure what to call it, but it looks really cool, it really has a 3d effect like flame maple.

Edited October 27, 2006 by Godin SD

[MiKro]

That is awesome. Thank you so much for taking your time to help me out.

Hi Godin,

Not Sure where you are in Texas, but if you need to use some tools I'm in Dallas and you are welcome to come by and use my thickness sander and whatever else you need. Just Email or PM me and let me know.

Mike

[Mattia]

That's medullary ray fleck you've got there. Lovely, isn't it? Add some bearclaw and you're golden. Spruce may not be the most exciting of woods, but I love the way it looks when it's nicely quartered...

[rlrhett]

To the bracing questions:

I believe that bracing is where the whole game is. How you brace your guitar will determine 90% of what your guitar sounds like. To put it in electric guitar terms, bracing is like winding your own pickups. Except imagine that there was no real way to acurately count the winds and the guage of the wire varied slightly from pickup to pickup.

I have done six guitars and tried most tuning techniques I could find on the internet: "tap" tuning, chaldni patterns, etc. The more I did them the more I realized that it is just a matter of making enough guitars to develop an ear for what you are looking for.

That having been said, here are my recommendations:

1) Do not experiment with radical bracing unless you really know standard x bracing and how to get the sound that you want. There is a reason that almost every steel string since 1940 has used this bracing pattern.

2) Look at a lot of pictures of bracing until you get an eye for what looks right.

3) Use the bracing diagrams and dimentions you find in books. Then take about 1/32 to 1/16 off from that. Most factory guitars are made with fairly heavy bracing as insurance for belly bow. It is like BMW detuning their engines just slightly for warranty reasons. If you are not worried about the warranty you can chip the engine and get better power.

4) Tap the top by suspending it on your thumb from the sound hole and knocking it with your knuckles where the bridge will go. You want plenty of resonance and sustain like a drum head. If it sounds "dry" shave a LITTLE more off the bottom x and tone bars. Beyond that it will probably take many guitars before you train yourself to "hear" the tone you are looking for.

Oh, and finally, I understand you are looking for a guitar that sounds good with single notes & chords, fingerstyle & flatpick, loud but not boomy, bright trebles & rich base, etc. In the imortal words of Austin Powers, "Yeah, I want a solid gold lue, but it ain't goin to happen baby."

If you don't vary from the norm too much and take your time you WILL have a guitar that is at least as good as an off the shelf Martin or Taylor and maybe as good as a nice high end guitar like a Collins or Santa Cruz. Not bad given the joy it will bring you to know you built it.

[Daniel Sorbera]

I've been looking at diffrent guitars and I think I wan't to make it the same shape as a taylor GS. The GS has a 16 1/4" lower bout and no cutaway, kinda like a really big grand concert. But when I was thickness sanding the plates of wood I (well not I, the guy that was sanding them) accidently went a little farther than what I wanted. The top ended up being .100, the back .095, and the sides .074. with the plates that thin do you think it's safe to make the GS? Or should I go with a smaller body?

Also one of the sides has started to cup a small ammount. It can be pushed back to flat with very little pressure, is this going to be a problem?

Edited October 28, 2006 by Godin SD

[fryovanni]

That bit of advise rlrhett gave is pretty good. Keep it straight forward till you get a feel for the process. I would recommend taking measurements of bracing weight, sound board weight and thickness, bridge weight etc.... Keep your notes in a nice little note book for future reference. Bracing, soundboard thickness, and bridge all reach a balance to a certain weight/stiffness ratio(this "balancing" is the magic). It is kinda like a recipe(1-cup Sitka soundboard, 1-tablespoon bracing, and 3/4-cup bridge). You may also adjust your shaping a bit on the bass and treble side(if you choose to view the soundboard that way).

As far as those thicknesses. None of those nubers would spook me. My last Sitka top(16"+) was closer to .090". Rosewood backs I generally shoot between .090" and .080" depending on the material. Sides I really vary by how they feel. They need to bend well. Your .074" is not extreamly thin for rosewood(definately not thick though). When you get ready to brace your sides beef the bracing up and regain some side stiffness(it is hard to go overboard with side stiffness).

I wouldn't worry about a small amount of cupping, it can be adjusting due to the fresh sanding. Do not set the sides back to back or on a flat surface. This will limit air flow around all the sides. Sticker and weight them for a few days after fresh sanding or cuts(unless you take it right to the bender). You are going to heat and soften the sides then re-shape them. If there was any subtle cupping it will be long gone by the time you finish bending. It will be important to keep the sides flat during bending and post bend.

Keep up the good work mister,

Rich

[Mattia]

The thicknesses you've got there are fine, assuming the wood's nice and stiff. Only caveat; you don't have a lot of room for sanding out muckups, so don't go too agressive with that. Like Rich said about the cupping, too. Remember that when it comes to thickness/stiffness, you can always just beef up the braces just a touch; most of the weight's in your top and your bridge anyway, a few extra grams of bracewood will add a lot of strength for relatively little mass increase.

[Daniel Sorbera]

I just got the rosette glued in and shaved down flat. Man it looks sweet. It's just a simple b/w/b/w/b but it looks nice on the spruce. I set up a pretty redneck jig to hold my foredom rotary tool so I could rout the circle I'll take some pics tomorrow after I cut out the soundhole.

I can already hear the notes coming from this guitar

Edited October 31, 2006 by Godin SD

[Daniel Sorbera]

Okay here are a few pics.

Routing with the foredom produced quite a bit of fuzz but I cleaned it up with a razor blade.

My redneck thrown together jig (complete with C clamp!)

pic2

and the sweet rosette

pic3

pic4

I used two pieces of stewmacs .060 b/w/b purfling stuck together so it looks like there is a bigger black line in the middle. I routed a .120 channel (becuase just by chance I had a .120 bit laying around) but I had to sand the purfling a little bit to get it to fit in correctly.

EDIT: I got the soundhole cut out and the rough shape bandsawd in the spruce and rosewood.

pic6

Edited October 31, 2006 by Godin SD