maxi450 Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 i just bought a starpowerguitar kit and it needs a paint job. i really don't have a clue what to paint on it . i was thinking maybe a camo job, but if i do should i use krylon or duplicolor? Heres the link for the kit i bought http://www.starpowerguitars.com/guitar_7.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dino Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 ... but if i do should i use krylon or duplicolor? Neither ... There are far too many disadvantages to using spraypaint. 1) It will take up to a year for the paint to fully cure. The more paint you use (multi-color paintjobs, stripes, camo, ect...) the longer it will take. 2) Even then, the paint is not durable enough to use for guitars. The paint is soft and leaves "impressions" from things like putting the guitar in a case, resting it on the carpet, lay it on a towel, and even from your clothing (especially jeans if you rest it on your lap while you play it). 3) The rubber from guitar stands will eat right through the finish. 4) It's very suseptable to chemical reactions that cause wrinkles and/or cracks in the finish. Yeah, spraypaint is cheap but just remember you get what you pay for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
levelhead86 Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 (edited) ... but if i do should i use krylon or duplicolor? Neither ... There are far too many disadvantages to using spraypaint. 1) It will take up to a year for the paint to fully cure. The more paint you use (multi-color paintjobs, stripes, camo, ect...) the longer it will take. 2) Even then, the paint is not durable enough to use for guitars. The paint is soft and leaves "impressions" from things like putting the guitar in a case, resting it on the carpet, lay it on a towel, and even from your clothing (especially jeans if you rest it on your lap while you play it). 3) The rubber from guitar stands will eat right through the finish. 4) It's very suseptable to chemical reactions that cause wrinkles and/or cracks in the finish. Yeah, spraypaint is cheap but just remember you get what you pay for. This sounds like the effects of spray paint taken to a WAAAAYYY extreme. I've seen higher quality spray paint work ALMOST as well as the kind you use from the gun... Edited January 18, 2007 by levelhead86 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 dino is pretty much right... no the rubber will not eat through the paint..but it will leave dents...and the solvents from the paints will eat through the rubber before it cures. yes you can make a spray can finish look good..but only for a little while...it won't last Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dino Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 This sounds like the effects of spray paint taken to a WAAAAYYY extreme. I've seen higher quality spray paint work ALMOST as well as the kind you use from the gun... Most of the pics you see online or in e-books were taken immediately after compounding and buffing out the finish. I agree you can paint a guitar with spraypaint and make it "appear" to be as good as those paintjobs done with a compressor/spraygun rig, but westhemann is right ... that look won't last a week. Even after waiting 3-4 months for the spraypaint to cure and going through the whole wetsanding, compounding and buffing process... the paint is still not fully cured and will be extremely soft. You will find that any hardware (pickgaurds, pickup rings, neckplates, etc.) that comes into contact with the body will actually sink into the finish overnight. Not to mention how all those coats of spraypaint will effect the sound of your instrument. Do what's best for you. I just thought you should know all the facts before making your decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marksound Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 Most of the pics you see online or in e-books were taken immediately after compounding and buffing out the finish. I agree you can paint a guitar with spraypaint and make it "appear" to be as good as those paintjobs done with a compressor/spraygun rig, but westhemann is right ... that look won't last a week. Even after waiting 3-4 months for the spraypaint to cure and going through the whole wetsanding, compounding and buffing process... the paint is still not fully cured and will be extremely soft. You will find that any hardware (pickgaurds, pickup rings, neckplates, etc.) that comes into contact with the body will actually sink into the finish overnight. Not to mention how all those coats of spraypaint will effect the sound of your instrument. Do what's best for you. I just thought you should know all the facts before making your decision. Not trying to start trouble, but in the interest of full disclosure could you explain what happened to change your mind about Krylon? Click here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 Not to mention how all those coats of spraypaint will effect the sound of your instrument. i would not even take that into consideration...i used to worry about that...but several guitars later both bought and built,i realize that the difference is so small between finishes that it isn't even worth mentioning... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dino Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 (edited) Not trying to start trouble, but in the interest of full disclosure could you explain what happened to change your mind about Krylon? Click here Thanks Mark. That's a perfect testimonial to show that I've "been there, done that". No offense to anyone doing rattlecan paintjobs, but most who use spraypaint to paint guitars are beginners who are enticed by the ebooks and the thought of producing a "factory finish" at such a low cost. That was me. As you can see from the pics of my work, I achieved my goal ... I produced what appeared to be a "factory finish" with spraypaint. What you don't see in those pics is what that same guitar looked like soon after. I've since purchased a compressor/spraygun rig and have painted several guitars using 2-pak acrylic urethane with alot of success. Curing time with this stuff is hours, not months. The paint is much more durable and I no longer have to worry about silly things like impressions being left in the finish from putting a guitar in it's case or allowing it to rest on the carpet or on a guitar stand. So to answer your question, "what happened to change your mind?" ... Experience Edited January 18, 2007 by Dino Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 sucks to spend all of that time making a finish perfect only to have it be crap soon after... i built a white v(maybe some remember it?) seven string with spraycan acrylic...i only played it a few times because it is quite a bit too heavy,but the finish looks as if it was 20 years old...just nasty... takes less work to just do it with the right product anyway.... dino man..i hope you have developed more ability to handle criticism since that first topic... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dino Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 Not to mention how all those coats of spraypaint will effect the sound of your instrument. i would not even take that into consideration...i used to worry about that...but several guitars later both bought and built,i realize that the difference is so small between finishes that it isn't even worth mentioning... I thought the same thing for the longest time. I was wrong. When using rattlecans (especially on multi-color paint schemes such as stripes, camo, etc..), ALOT of coats of clearcoat are required in order to level out the different levels of paint and to provide enough substance in order to complete the wetsanding.compounding and buffing process. It's an unbelievable amount of paint. I never realized just how much the paint affected the sound until I took one of those spraypainted guitars, stripped it, and repainted it with acrylic urethane. Though the graphics on the guitar were painted exactly the same, the amount of acrylic urethane I needed to use was a considerably less amount. For example, approximately 30 coats of clearcoat was needed to level out and wetsand those striped guitars painted with Krylon. When clearcoating the same guitar using acrylic urethane, only two coats were needed. I'm no "tone freak", but the difference in 30 coats of Krylon versus 2 coats of acrylic urethane is very noticable to my ears. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dino Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 dino man..i hope you have developed more ability to handle criticism since that first topic... Thanks again for posting that link marksound. My apologies to all involved with that embarrassing thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
levelhead86 Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 (edited) Yeah.... if you have the stuff, then it's worth painting the guitar 'right.' But when I was younger, and had no money, I spray painted a few guitars and they worked and sounded fine for me. I did them in flat black,and by not using 5,000,000 coats of clear on it, it still sounded pretty good and cured in a reasonable time frame; while holding up to some abuse. If you have the money, fine, buy the equipment or pay someone else to paint it. But if not, then don't be afraid to throw down something simple in the meantime, and learn from it, while you save for the better equipment. My $0.02. Edited January 18, 2007 by levelhead86 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dino Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 Yeah.... if you have the stuff, then it's worth painting the guitar 'right.' But when I was younger, and had no money, I spray painted a few guitars and they worked and sounded fine for me. I did them in flat black,and by not using 5,000,000 coats of clear on it, it still sounded pretty good and cured in a reasonable time frame; while holding up to some abuse. If you have the money, fine, buy the equipment or pay someone else to paint it. But if not, then don't be afraid to throw down something simple in the meantime, and learn from it, while you save for the better equipment. My $0.02. Absolutely. Spraypaint can be made to work. So can magic markers and crayons. Just be realistic in your expectations and don't expect a "factory finish". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 number of coats is not how you compare...thickness of finish is... my point is this...5 mm of finish is 5 mm of finish...the reason you need 30 coats of spraycan to equal 10 to 15(not 2) coats of the good stuff is that the coats of the good stuff go on much thicker...but you end with the same film thickness...maybe if you don't seal the wood first then there will be a big difference,because the thinspraycanneverreallycures kind of paint will sink alot longer and further into the grain... i have at least 5 pounds of spraycan acrylic on my seven string vee,and the tone is magnificent...but i do agree that the protection from 2 or 3 mm of the good stuff of whatever variety you choose will most likely exceed the protection from 5 mm of the spraycan crap...making more resonance likely...but since the majority of the tone of the electric guitar comes from the tightness of the woodwork and the positive connections at the bridge and nut combined with the choice of hardware and electronics...the "coating" is negligible except to protect allof your fine woodwork... especially after a couple of years when the guitar has settled in and "found it's groove" so to speak,if you see what i am saying. to recap...3 mm of nitro,polyeurethane,polyester,acrylic,spraycan crap,or (my favorite)epoxy hardened buffalo dung are all going to sound very similar ...enough so that the main consideration should always be protection of your work imo...capiche the directionage of my meanderations? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dino Posted January 19, 2007 Report Share Posted January 19, 2007 (edited) number of coats is not how you compare...thickness of finish is... I'm confused ... Wouldn't the thickness of the finish all depend on the number of coats used? my point is this...5 mm of finish is 5 mm of finish...the reason you need 30 coats of spraycan to equal 10 to 15(not 2) coats of the good stuff is that the coats of the good stuff go on much thicker...but you end with the same film thickness...maybe if you don't seal the wood first then there will be a big difference,because the thinspraycanneverreallycures kind of paint will sink alot longer and further into the grain... I disagree ... The "good stuff" is no thicker than Krylon. In fact, I believe it's just the opposite. You have much more control over the amount of paint that comes out of a spraygun as opposed to a rattlecan and the reason you don't need to use 30+ coats of clearcoat is because the finishing process is a little different. With Krylon, the wetsanding process begins with a much lower grit sandpaper (600grit maybe?) and then gradually work your way to 1200, 1500, or 2000 grit before compounding and buffing. That process alone requires you have much more clearcoat. With the "good stuff", you begin the wetsanding process with 1200 or 1500 grit, therefore it doesn't require as much clearcoat to protect you from sanding through the finish. A Krylon finish, if done "by the book", needs to be much thicker because of the process used to finish it in order to achieve the so-called "factory finish". That's not to say someone can't pile on just as much acrylic urethane if they wanted to, but I really don't see the advantage to doing that. Edited January 19, 2007 by Dino Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rahimiiii Posted January 19, 2007 Report Share Posted January 19, 2007 (edited) If you want to use spray cans, reranch offers nitrocellouse lacquer in spray cans. They use McFaddens which is the same thing Gibson uses. It will fully cure in 2 weeks and they will not leave imprints. They have many of the custom and Fender colors available, as well as a sunburst kit. The cans cost some money but if you must use spray cans, they are worth every cent. If you want to get a spray gun then you can buy McFaddens in cans and they do the same as reranch since its the same. I would probably avoid 2 part stuff for now if you are a beginner or got a spray gun but no way of isolating everything because 2 part paint is very toxic. You can wear respirators but your neighbors might breathe it. Also nitro is more forgiving when it comes to cleaning because even if you were careless you can soak the parts in lacquer thinner and they will re-dissolve but once 2 part paint cures, there is no cleaning it. That and lacquer doesnt stick too well to metal without a primer so they will flake off anyways. You can buy an okay compressor from harbor freight for less than 200 dollars and a cheap 30 dollar spray gun which is good for spraying clearcoats. If you wish to do any kind of detailing buy an airbrush, like Paasche H or VL. Airbrush doesnt use much air and can atomize paint very well. This is more important for those not located in the USA because reranch won't be available there. If you want to buy a harbor freight compressor be sure to get one with a good sized tank, at least 5 gallon. This way even if your spray gun exceeds the compressor CFM by 1 or 2, you can still spray a guitar but nothing larger. If you must use spray cans and cannot use reranch make sure you get lacquer spray paint, such as Rutoleum Painter's touch, or Deft spray can. This is more trial and error because you have no way of telling and most the time, especially outside the USA, they do not tell you much more than just resin, pigment, and solvent. If you are located in the USA and want to do more than 2 guitar, then get a spray rig and buy some McFaddens... if outside of the USA get a spray rig, and call or look around for some nitrocellouse lacquer. They are actually easier to find outside of the USA because there are environmental laws regarding nitro lacquer and many countries outside of the US doesn't care. I was able to find some that seems similar to McFaddens. Nitrocellouse lacquer always looks yellow. The key characteristics is that they dry very fast, so fast that if you thin it for brushing it takes less than 10 minutes to become too thick. If it's water clear, then it is most likely acrylic lacquer. Acrylic do not dry quite as fast as nitro and does not dry quite as hard either. Chances are however they will have additives that makes it a little more flexable and have UV inhibitors to prevent yellowing. You can brush on Sanding sealer (it is a must for most wood except maple) but you will use tons of it and if you aren't too good there will be droplets all over the body that turns into pinholes as it dries. So spraying is strongly recommended! If you want to finish ash or other open pore wood, try and find some pore filler, or if not, get some 30 minute epoxy and an old credit card or other hard edge and spread it on. It will fill the wood quite good, however if you want to do clear on ash then look around for a transparant resin because most epoxies are somewhat yellow and using it for filler will make the color look uneven. If you are starting use a closed pore wood or even a cheap import body sanded with 320 grit.... dont try and strip poly for now... just sand it and cover it in paint. If you do not wish to invest in any equipment you can look into tru oil or any other oil/varnish blend. You whipe on the oil, and when it dries whipe on more and more coat and you can actually get a gloss or satin sheen, without any equipments. Be very careful with used rags and dispose of it by placing it inside an empty sealed can filled with water. The oil can react with air which is exothermic and will actually catch on fire if a bunch of rags were in a trash can. Or else take the rag and spread it out on bare concrete floor outside, then dispose of the rag once it turns hard. Edited January 19, 2007 by rahimiiii Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted January 19, 2007 Report Share Posted January 19, 2007 sorry dino..i would love to have one of those spirited debates with you...but your argument is flawed because it is entirely based on supposition...besides my internet connecetion is giving me trouble right now. bottom line...forget the voodoo...the good finish is the good finish..tone plays no part.pick the finish you like and go with it based on durability or whatever else...all the tone stuff is just so much hooey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted January 19, 2007 Report Share Posted January 19, 2007 I'm confused ... Wouldn't the thickness of the finish all depend on the number of coats used? no,thickness does not depend on # of coats...sherwood for example reccomends a coat of no more than .5 mm each time...as many times as you want up to 5 mm... krylon is much less per coat,hence the greater # of coats needed to reach the same film thickness i believe you ARE a bit confused,as you said..hehe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aidlook Posted January 19, 2007 Report Share Posted January 19, 2007 (edited) After reading that "other thread" dino, and now this one as well...My question is, did you refund all those paintjobs you did with rattlecans for other people and charged them for ....Now that you know how unbelievably crappy it is. Edited January 19, 2007 by aidlook Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
levelhead86 Posted January 19, 2007 Report Share Posted January 19, 2007 (edited) After reading that "other thread" dino, and now this one as well...My question is, did you refund all those paintjobs you did with rattlecans for other people and charged them for ....Now that you know how unbelievably crappy it is. Ouch... that sounded like a dig. Anyway, I know you can only get a "single look" out of it, but the rustoleum "hammered" paints go on well, cure quickly, look awesome, and are WAAAAAAAAY durable. I'd imagine of they can pull it off in that, then there's prolly other sprays *clears included* out there with just as much balls. Edited January 19, 2007 by levelhead86 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryema22 Posted January 19, 2007 Report Share Posted January 19, 2007 (edited) I have to respectfully disagree with most of what Dino is saying. I recently had very good results using duplicolor brand metallic spray paint (you can find this at any automotive chain) and Deft nitrocellulose-based clear gloss lacquer (available at lowes, home depot, etc.) Total cost was about $30. There are definately some rattle-can clear sprays that will take a long time to cure and won't hold up, but if you do your research, a decent (read: attractive but not "straight out of the Gibson factory" attractive) finish can be achieved. That's all most beginners are looking for on their first project. I've also heard the ReRanch products work quite well. They have plenty of completed project pictures on their site if you want to get an idea of what can be achieved with their rattle cans For direct comparison's sake, I sprayed a guitar with McFadden's using a friend's HVLP spray rig over the summer and the Deft I used most recently seems to have cured just as well as the guitar sprayed with the expensive equipment. Just my .02, ymmv Edited January 19, 2007 by ryema22 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dino Posted January 19, 2007 Report Share Posted January 19, 2007 (edited) With all due respect, I only commented on this thread to try to help. Everything I've stated is based on my own personal experience, and is not "based on supposition" or made up scenerios. For those interested, I have photos to support my comments but I'm not here to "prove" anything and I certainly have nothing to gain by sharing my experiences. If painting guitars with spraycans works for you, then great! Posted by aidlook: After reading that "other thread" dino, and now this one as well...My question is, did you refund all those paintjobs you did with rattlecans for other people and charged them for ....Now that you know how unbelievably crappy it is. A typical rattlecan paintjob would take me roughly 6-8 months to do. Most of those paintjobs were my own personal projects, but for those that weren't, I would wait a full year for the paint to cure before making it available for sale because I was always concerned about it getting damaged in shipping. So at that pace, you can probably figure out on your own exactly how many Krylon paintjobs (or guitars) were actually sold ... not many. I've had no complaints from anybody I've done work for so far. I've always been honest about the paint I use, good or bad, but if someone purchased a guitar or paintjob that I did with Krylon and would like a full refund, please contact me and I will arrange it. I'm not sure why you feel the need to personally attack me or my business aidlook, but I hope I answered your question. Edited January 19, 2007 by Dino Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted January 19, 2007 Report Share Posted January 19, 2007 well,i am not trying to dig at you dino...but as a matter of curiousity i must say the question by aidlook was fair...although worded a bit harsh.. now...after starting replying to this topic it just so happens that i have started refinishing a guitar i built years ago and finished with spraycan polyeurethane(defthane brand) when i first did the refinish i let the guitar sit for 4 months before assembling,and it was still soft enough that the hardware sunk into the finish....but after sitting in my music room for the last few years,it has hardened to the point that it is extremely difficult to sand off...and i mean extremely.i think it may be as hard as anything else...now to repeat,that was defthane poleurethane...not krylon or anything else. the guitar i finished in krylon is still not as hard as you need guitar paint to be...during sanding it balls up in the sandpaper...and that is after about 3 years of sittingon my wall. but i don't believe the hype on any "brand" of spraycan nitro or anything else...it is NOT the same as what gibson uses....it may well be the same company(mcfaddens)...but to put it in a spraycan and have it sit on a shelf with a pot life of UP TO A YEAR it absolutely HAS to have additives(retarders and thinners of some type)that cause it to be so....and they cause full cure to not be reached anywhere near as fast... it is very easy to put up pics that show a very nice finish upon completion,but that says nothing for the durability...none of the guitars i have refinished have had the durability of the factory finish that you normally see on everything these days...and i have to say that is because the spray can mix is inferior....in every way. and i think all of you that are so dead set on rattle cans are going to find the same thing out on your wn...it gets very frustrating when all your time and effort just goes for nothing in the en. as a hobby,you can paint for fun with spraycans....but if the desired result is to be compareable to what yo see on ibanez,esp,etc...or even gibson with those nitro finishes,the spray cans will not get you there...sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aidlook Posted January 19, 2007 Report Share Posted January 19, 2007 With all due respect, I only commented on this thread to try to help. Everything I've stated is based on my own personal experience, and is not "based on supposition" or made up scenerios. For those interested, I have photos to support my comments but I'm not here to "prove" anything and I certainly have nothing to gain by sharing my experiences. If painting guitars with spraycans works for you, then great! Posted by aidlook: After reading that "other thread" dino, and now this one as well...My question is, did you refund all those paintjobs you did with rattlecans for other people and charged them for ....Now that you know how unbelievably crappy it is. A typical rattlecan paintjob would take me roughly 6-8 months to do. Most of those paintjobs were my own personal projects, but for those that weren't, I would wait a full year for the paint to cure before making it available for sale because I was always concerned about it getting damaged in shipping. So at that pace, you can probably figure out on your own exactly how many Krylon paintjobs (or guitars) were actually sold ... not many. I've had no complaints from anybody I've done work for so far. I've always been honest about the paint I use, good or bad, but if someone purchased a guitar or paintjob that I did with Krylon and would like a full refund, please contact me and I will arrange it. I'm not sure why you feel the need to personally attack me, my business, or my work aidlook, but I hope I answered your question. I might have come off a bit harsh and that was certainly not my intention. The thing is that in the old thread you come of as bragging about how good the rattlecan is and how many satisfied customers you have. And now you're totally flaming everything that comes out of a gun. I feel no need to personally attack you, your business, or your work, but when someone is telling everyone how crappy something is, while having charged other people for the exact same thing, curiosity leads one to ask the question. As for attacking your work, I don't really see where I did that, you did that indirectly yourself. And since your where indirectly critizising your own work so much, one thinks that you might have had a bad conciense about having charged people for something that you yourself find so terribly bad. Anyway, looks like you're very skilled with a spraycan, and it's better than anything I ever painted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigG1986 Posted January 19, 2007 Report Share Posted January 19, 2007 i use the rattle can method on mine 5 coats of clear do me as its only one coulor but then again i stripp mine every year and do it another coulor, but thats just ma project strat, when i wanti nice new paint job on ma gibson explorer its down the local car-re-sprayer and hes does a fanstastic job probably the best shine i've seen and its only away for 5 days and £60 is all for him to work his paint voodoo, i reckon thats probably he best method unless you'r gonna do a lot of guitar then its worth investin in the gear to get it right yourself but as i learnt it takes a lot of practise on lots of spare wood!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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