levelhead86 Posted January 19, 2007 Report Share Posted January 19, 2007 What about the spray polyurethane *minwax* that so many people herald in this forum? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted January 19, 2007 Report Share Posted January 19, 2007 been a long time since i looked into the minwax...but i believe it is the same formulation as the defthane...i think it is made at the same plant.. like i said,the defthane ultimately gets pretty hard...but it takes forever to cure...though not as long as the deft nitro... but seriously...all spraycan stuff is messed with to increase the shelf life...it has to be made to cure slower in order to increase the shelf life...i just don't see any way around that. lok...i have a reasonable solution for ya'll...try out the preval sprayers at stewmac....all in all i think they come out as only slightly more expensive per guitar finished(if at all)...i would have to do the math though... the preval unit comes with a jar and the aeresol part...the aeresol refill is available seperately...so if you clean your jar often,you only need one of the entire units with many aeresol sections... so far,one aeresol unit sprays a little more than 120 cc of liquid...you can buy a 2 part finish or a catalyzed varnish(which is what i am using right now)and spray according to the paint directions on the paint you buy(mine is 3% catalyst/15% thinner)and it sprays right through the aeresol...all it is is a compressed air canister.it works very well. so i spent $65 total on paint,thinner,and catalyst,then a little more(don't recall the #) on the preval sprayer and replacement power units...and i have enough paint(high gloss clear)to spray roughly 10 or so guitars(i think..) personally i think it even comes out cheaper....defthane is nearly $5 a can if i remember right,and it takes like 7-10 cans per guitar. and with the preval unitys there is nothing to clean except a jar...right after painting you swish some thinner around in the jar and that's it.i think it's pretty cool... i'm not saying it's the be all/end all...but it's pretty easy and you can use it to spray a better product...any type you want...but i would look into each finish and make sure it can be sprayed thin enough to go through it...my varnish sprays quite well through it at the reccomended 15% thinner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
levelhead86 Posted January 19, 2007 Report Share Posted January 19, 2007 (edited) I have sprayers and an air compressor *I do automotive work as a hobby* My biggest goal here, is to have a clear coat which I can buy in one of the major stores *Wal-Mart, Home-Depot, Lowe's, etc.* that'll be a high quality finish. I don't like buying from specialty stores online *like stew.mac.; cause the shipping and the markup is outrageous in my opinion, plus I'm impatient when it comes to waiting for things paid for* and there's not exactly a cache of luthier supply stores in central New York. So... what options are open? Edited January 19, 2007 by levelhead86 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaintIt Posted January 19, 2007 Report Share Posted January 19, 2007 I have sprayers and an air compressor *I do automotive work as a hobby* But I've never used my equipment to spray guitar finish... can the minwax in the can be thinned and sprayed for clear coat; thus bypassing the stuff they use in the rattler to increase shelf life? My biggest goal here, is to have a clear coat which I can buy in one of the major stores *Wal-Mart, Home-Depot, Lowe's, etc.* that'll be a high quality finish. I don't like buying from specialty stores online *like stew.mac.; cause the shipping and the markup is outrageous in my opinion, plus I'm impatient when it comes to waiting for things I paid for* and there's not exactly a cache of luthier supply stores in central New York. If you have automotive equipment and do that as a hobby it is you should have the materials for the guitar also. The materials I use do not differ whether it is a guitar, bicycle or guitar. Use 2k auto clear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted January 19, 2007 Report Share Posted January 19, 2007 if you have a spray set up already,and you do auto painting,then why are you messing around with wal mart,etc?they have nothing you want...all those places you mention are nothing but hobby houses,more or less. you need a specialty paint store that deals in high quality finishes...like sherwin williams or any place that sells 2 pac laquer/varnish/or polyurethane.. http://www.tcpglobal.com/kustomshop/itemde...IT-KC210/212-QT i know you said you don't want to order online...but you need to get over that or else find a specialty store local.those places you mention do not have high quality clear...not in any i have ever been in...they have house paint and hobby spray cans.the big cans of one part paint are not any more quality than the rattlecan stuff...they still have been adapted for a longer shelf life...if they were not,they would harden in the can 2k auto clear is exactly what you need...and sounds like you already know where to get it. just so you know,most guitar manufacturers use the same paint as the auto houses Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
levelhead86 Posted January 19, 2007 Report Share Posted January 19, 2007 (edited) The Dupont clear at the local shop is $185 a gallon. I'll spend that on my '68 'stang, but I'm not going to spend that on clearing a couple guitars. EDIT: BTW, there's a Sherwin Williams store in the city where I work; so after seeing your posts *WES*; I'm guessing I can get something from there? Edited January 19, 2007 by levelhead86 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted January 19, 2007 Report Share Posted January 19, 2007 sher-wood water white conversion varnish...it is a catalyzed varnish which has a timetable of 45 minutes from spray to sand,then spray again and repeat until finish is as thick as you want it,then stop,wait ,buff,and let sit i would reccomend a week before checking the hardness before assembling(it claims full cure in 24hours,but at the thickness of most guitar finishes,i would wait a week and check) it costs $35 for a gallon...plus $22 for the catalyst,plus about $10 for the thinner...be sure to specify full gloss because the catalyst varies depending on desired gloss...it claims "bartop durability" and it hangs well on a vertical surface. i am not going to say it is as hard as auto poly,because i don't think it is...but it seems to be as hard as proffesional nitro finishes...but it claims more resistance to fading and checking ask for the info sheet with it,they will make a copy of it for you. one very important couple of things...has to be at least 70 degrees f to spray and during cure....it also has a chart saying how fast cure is at higher temperatures,it has a pot life of 24 hours,but i have been using a pot up within 30 minutes or so,then cleaning the pot and mixing more...read the info sheet for the full spraying and sanding schedule... make sure the dyes or pigments you use are compatible with varnish also....5 mm is maximum thickness of finish to prevent chipping....but each coat should be no more than 1/2 a mm thick until it cures,then add another until you reach what you want.ask as many specific question as you can think of while you are there about it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted January 19, 2007 Report Share Posted January 19, 2007 by the way a gallon will do considerably more than a couple of guitars Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaintIt Posted January 19, 2007 Report Share Posted January 19, 2007 The Dupont clear at the local shop is $185 a gallon. I'll spend that on my '68 'stang, but I'm not going to spend that on clearing a couple guitars. EDIT: BTW, there's a Sherwin Williams store in the city where I work; so after seeing your posts *WES*; I'm guessing I can get something from there? Dupont clear is also available in quarts so for around $50.00 you could clear 4-5 guitars with one quart. I like the Chroma Clear but they also have Nason clear that is less expensive at the dupont dealer. PPG also has a Omni line that is cheaper. But at $10.00 per guitar for clear how much cheaper does it need to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted January 19, 2007 Report Share Posted January 19, 2007 oh...one more thing...don't be confused by the "water white" term...it's not water borne,water based,and it is not white water white just means it is clear....rather than amber tinted like some laquers and such Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
levelhead86 Posted January 19, 2007 Report Share Posted January 19, 2007 (edited) I guess it was starting to sound like an argument of "inferior for cheap" versus "superior for $$$" finishes, and so in bringing up auto clear I didn't want to discuss using cheaper stuff *like nason* unless it came to that because I've already had that argument. But, after reading everything, I think we're all speaking the same language. I'm much more partial to the "sher-wood water white conversion varnish" idea, simply because I'm not cool with spending the $100+ on a gallon or $50+ on a quart of the other stuff plus reducer and thinner; especially cause if something goes wacky and my supply goes bad, I'd much rather lose the $35 gallon, then the latter. Maybe later on though. Edited January 19, 2007 by levelhead86 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpa Posted January 19, 2007 Report Share Posted January 19, 2007 All of those cons mentioned previously about rattlecans are not absolute. If the equipment isn't available then what is a beginner guitar builder supposed to do when its time to put a finish on the guitar? I've had success with Duplocolor acrylic lacquer, Zellers brand nitro-lacquer and Minwax poly in rattlecans. Of course you have to apply them properly and under the right temp and atmospheric conditions. Laying the stuff down too thick WILL cause problems and WILL take a long time to dry. Just follow the directions, lots of coats over a long period of time and make sure conditions are optimal. Allow sufficient drying time between applications. I don't know what you are doing wrong but I've achieved totally cured finishes with those products inside of 2 months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdismuke Posted January 19, 2007 Report Share Posted January 19, 2007 All of those cons mentioned previously about rattlecans are not absolute. If the equipment isn't available then what is a beginner guitar builder supposed to do when its time to put a finish on the guitar? I've had success with Duplocolor acrylic lacquer, Zellers brand nitro-lacquer and Minwax poly in rattlecans. Of course you have to apply them properly and under the right temp and atmospheric conditions. Laying the stuff down too thick WILL cause problems and WILL take a long time to dry. Just follow the directions, lots of coats over a long period of time and make sure conditions are optimal. Allow sufficient drying time between applications. I don't know what you are doing wrong but I've achieved totally cured finishes with those products inside of 2 months. I have to agree with dino. I've painted a few guitars with Krylon and have experienced all the bad stuff just like he said. The only con mentioned that is not absolute, is chemical reaction, but it happens more often than not. For the beginner guitar builder, I'd recommend putting that Krylon money towards a spraygun and compressor. Even a beginner wants professional results and there's nothing in a can that will give you that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted January 19, 2007 Report Share Posted January 19, 2007 well...alot is dependant on what you expect from a finish..."what is a beginner to do?"i firmly believe all told the preval sprayers plus a "reasonable cost" finish such as catalyzed laquer or varnish is much more cost effective than the spraycans...but again,if you want only a decent but not really durable finish,then minwax(defthane)polyurethane is fine...but you really must wait alot longer for cure... let's do the math http://reranchstore.stores.yahoo.net/clearcoatand.html nitro in a spraycan from reranch...16 oz for $13...how many cans would you say it takes for a guitar body?let's go conservative at 5...thats $65.. wait...now that's what i paid for the catalyzed varnish....thinner,catalyst,paint...everything...an entire gallon of it.and it cures much faster and harder than any spray can nitro i ever used... but you still need spray equipment preval sprayer from stewmac...$6(actually a little less)...power unit replacement...$5...probably 5 power units and one jar to do the body...that's $26 so really...even if you buy a quart of 2 pac...it is still more cost effective to do the "expensive" finish...plus you get the benifit of a better end product and an easier time making the finish presentable to begin with..... i don't know...i mean i have done my share of spray can finishes...and the defthane poly was by far the best of those....but it still makes me sad that i spent so much time on a finish that doesn't really last. to be honest,i doubt i will use the varnish for more than just redoing some guitars i have lying around...practice and such...it is better by far than the spraycan stuff,but i still want to go the whole nine yards for my explorer... my plan is to play with the varnish for the next month or so,then finish the explorer in 2 pac auto poly.......probably with the preval sprayer(yeah i know) this summer i plan to build a spray shed...at that point i will get spray equipment and start shooting it properly. bottom line is that spraycans are a stepping stone,nothing more....by all means start out with spraycan pain(defthane or minwax polyurethane)...but eventually everyone must move ahead to the next step in one form or another.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted January 20, 2007 Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 dino...you mind explaining why the guy agreeing with you has your same ip address before i must send you on vacation for breaking forum rules and having two memberships?what else am i to assume here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted January 20, 2007 Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.ph...mp;#entry310415 and why in this thread do you answer your own question?again...the one post is the same ip as the other post(msduke and dino)but yet a different ip than the ones in this thread. i think you are playing the forum..or trying anyway...if the "other guy" is not you,but just someone else at the shop or at your house,why would you answer the question on the forum instead of person to person?if you know this "other guy" why is it not mentioned? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted January 20, 2007 Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.ph...mp;#entry310071 once again you are agreeing with yourself...i am turning this matter over to admin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpa Posted January 20, 2007 Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 Nuthin' like a rigged discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
levelhead86 Posted January 20, 2007 Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 (edited) Wes, you make a lotta valid points, but to a "beginner" *implying, not having done it before* sinking any significant amount of money into equipment before they start seeing results may not be the most desirable approach. I ask you... when you first started, did you mechanically go through and buy various pieces of equipment first, or did you jump into it? I understand if we're trying to discuss the most "well thought" approach, but I know my first paint job was pretty shitty, but so was the guitar so it was no loss, and I learned a lot from the experience. All the talk and advice is great, but there's no substitute for experience, and by trying the "cheaper " *even though, your breakdown implies it's not; which I disagree with* approach, the painter can draw their own conclusions on whether they a satisfied with the results or not. According to Southpa, he's decided that the rattler finishes were reasonable for him, and though they weren't to you, that doesn't mean it's not for this guy. Sorry if I railroaded this discussion at all, but I think we should be looking at THIS PARTICULAR thread/discussion as "what a reasonable method/type/brand of rattler finish, than can deliver descent results FOR A BEGINNER" and we can use the extra "advice" as just that... "advice." Edited January 20, 2007 by levelhead86 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rahimiiii Posted January 20, 2007 Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 If you are a beginner who wants to use rattlecan and dont want to buy the equipment, then buy 3 reranch clear and whatever color needed. Reranch clear may be expensive but it's the best you are going to have in spray can. However by the time you got enough to buy the needed cans you can buy a compressor and a spray gun and an airbrush for a little more... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted January 20, 2007 Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 Wes, you make a lotta valid points, but to a "beginner" *implying, not having done it before* sinking any significant amount of money into equipment before they start seeing results may not be the most desirable approach. I ask you... when you first started, did you mechanically go through and buy various pieces of equipment first, or did you jump into it?i jumped right into it with the spraycans...like i said before...it's a stepping stone..but all sides need to be brought into the discussion. alot of guys here are getting the message that certain rattlecan finishes are as good as the professional grade 2 pac finishes on the guitars they see in the stores,but they should know that is not the case so they can make an informed decision...i did not know when i started that the good paint laid down so much better,or that it hangs on vertical surfaces better without curtaining,or that it takes less effort to do the finish with the right products rather than spraycans...but it is all that. the simple truth is that if you can do it well with spraycans,you can do it better and faster with the 2 part chemical reaction coatings....it's just a fact.a fact everyone should know before making the choice. if you are going to only finish one body and be done with it...then maybe the rattlecan is for you...but the one guy said he already had the spray equipment....so really,what;s cheaper and better for him? I think we should be looking at THIS PARTICULAR thread/discussion as "what a reasonable method/type/brand of rattler finish, than can deliver descent results FOR A BEGINNER" and we can use the extra "advice" as just that... "advice." i'm sorry,but that is just a different way of saying "lets limit the discussion so it sounds like my way is best" the best threads on this site started with one simple question,and ended with everybody with knowledge chiming in,disaggreeing with each other,arguing,and researching to validate their points... doing anything other than that only tells part of the story...think of me and dino(though i hate to lump myself in with him considering the sneaky conversational tactics)as telling the "tried the spraycans,was very dissapointed" side southpa is the "tried the spraycans and like them well enough to stick with them" side and you and ramiii are the "some spraycans are good,some aren't" crowd. but keep in mind EVERYONE has had equal time for their viewpoint,and that is what a learning discussion is about,is it not? but you said you don't believe the pro rig is cheaper calculations i made based on reranch prices vs sherwin-williams and preval...why is that?in my experience it takes more than 5 cans anyway...so all of my spraycan finishres were more expensive than that... you can get defthane polyurethane for about $6 a can...and that is the best rattlecan i have tried,with deft nitro being next...but even so your finish is going to cost over $40 for one guitar i garantee...but keep in mind i do neck through or set neck only...so it takes more paint to cover it than just a body. so...type out what it costs you to paint one guitar....i guess you could brush on the minwax poly and then sand like crazy...that would save a bit of money... the cheapest finish i ever did was tru oil....you put that on with a rag... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpa Posted January 20, 2007 Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 Three cans of Minwax poly is all it takes on any one guitar I have done. I can't imagine there being such a difference between whats in a rattlecan and the same product being sold by the gallon. The idea that rattlecan poly will somehow fail quicker later on doesn't cut it for me. After all, this stuff is used to coat hardwood floors. If that isn't durability then I guess I just don't know what is, . I only build about one guitar a year. I WOULD like to buy a spray outfit, but what I have in mind is way out of my budget. I would want something I can use all the time, ie. I'm a residential painter, and those portable airless machines cost a bundle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxi450 Posted January 20, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 i didnt want to start a big argument between the spray can guys and the spray gun/compressor guys. i have acess to a paint booth and spray equipment, i was just wondering about the spray can finish. when i bought the guitar kit i saw the paint-your-own link , so i was curious. thanks for all you opinions and experince. i have never painted a guitar, and i think i'll ihave my cousin do it for me . he's a paint rep so he knows his stuff. if anyone is interested in a paint job, let me know . he might do some on the side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted January 20, 2007 Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 Three cans of Minwax poly is all it takes on any one guitar I have done. I can't imagine there being such a difference between whats in a rattlecan and the same product being sold by the gallon. The idea that rattlecan poly will somehow fail quicker later on doesn't cut it for me. After all, this stuff is used to coat hardwood floors. If that isn't durability then I guess I just don't know what is, sorry southpa,you misunderstand me...i am saying ALL of the off the shelf one part paints are not as good or as durable and they don't cure as fast as their 2 part counterparts. if they WERE just as good,then every car in america would sport a minwax poly rubbed on finish...and the automakers would save the extra money 3 cans is a very thin guitar finish if you are spraying the neck as well...that might be what you prefer,but i am talking about the thick factory style finish that protects the wood come hell or high water. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rahimiiii Posted January 20, 2007 Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 Three cans of Minwax poly is all it takes on any one guitar I have done. I can't imagine there being such a difference between whats in a rattlecan and the same product being sold by the gallon. The idea that rattlecan poly will somehow fail quicker later on doesn't cut it for me. After all, this stuff is used to coat hardwood floors. If that isn't durability then I guess I just don't know what is, sorry southpa,you misunderstand me...i am saying ALL of the off the shelf one part paints are not as good or as durable and they don't cure as fast as their 2 part counterparts. if they WERE just as good,then every car in america would sport a minwax poly rubbed on finish...and the automakers would save the extra money 3 cans is a very thin guitar finish if you are spraying the neck as well...that might be what you prefer,but i am talking about the thick factory style finish that protects the wood come hell or high water. I guess it depends on what you want. If you want a finish that is bullet proof and can withstand even the worst abuse, then you must go with polyester sealer and cat poly topcoat like all factory Fender finishes. The cat poly is like liquid concrete nothing, even most paint stripper will touch it. Thing is for some people they said that cat poly feels like plastic. Also even if you can spray cat poly or get a shop to do that, it is very difficult to polish poly finish because they are so hard. Pedistal buffer is a must in this case, you can do it by hand but it will take forever. Also another thing, if you do manage to scratch or gouge or chip cat poly, you can never repair it to where you can't see the difference. Some of us do prefer the nitrocellouse lacquer of the 1950's Fender and most modern Gibson. While nitrocellouse lacquer is not as durable as cat poly they are easily repaired, it is easier for most of us to spray because they are not as toxic as cat poly, and some said that it allows the wood to breathe better... Yes you have to wait 2 weeks or more to buff it but they are easier to buff compared to cat poly. If you chip nitro you can drop fill them then buff it back in and it will be good as new. Finally, if you wish to have a relic finish you must use nitrocellouse lacquer because poly will not age as well as lacquer. If you want to use lacquer go with McFadden or reranch cans if you wish to use aerosol can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.