Partnership?

[spacecowboy]

Hi, I'm not sure if this is the topic to post this in if not sorry maybe a mod can move it?

I've played guitar for some while now and I happen to be an illustrator. I started designing guitars and asking around and they are a hit. I don't have anything to loose so I will just ask. I was wondering If someone would want to go in partnership with me my design their building capabilities. Possibly make a line of these beauties and try to sell them to a company. Could be an interesting business proposition.

I hope I don't get laughed at or anything. I know I'm talking out of my ass since I'm not posting my illustrations. But If i post it than anyone could take them their not patent. It would be a semi-hollow body electric guitar. Anyways I'll wait for replies, if I'm going about this wrong in any manor please inform me I'm a noob at this.

Thanks,

Vince

[fryovanni]

Hi, I'm not sure if this is the topic to post this in if not sorry maybe a mod can move it?

I've played guitar for some while now and I happen to be an illustrator. I started designing guitars and asking around and they are a hit. I don't have anything to loose so I will just ask. I was wondering If someone would want to go in partnership with me my design their building capabilities. Possibly make a line of these beauties and try to sell them to a company. Could be an interesting business proposition.

I hope I don't get laughed at or anything. I know I'm talking out of my ass since I'm not posting my illustrations. But If i post it than anyone could take them their not patent. It would be a semi-hollow body electric guitar. Anyways I'll wait for replies, if I'm going about this wrong in any manor please inform me I'm a noob at this.

Thanks,

Vince

I am going to keep my opinions to myself on what you are proposing, but you may want to post this in the solid body chat(you will get more attension).

[Drak]

Call me a pessimist (occasionally)...but in this world we live in, there isn't an idea out there that someone wouldn't tell you that it was cool and tell you to build it, probably happens a few hundred times every day across this planet...it's easy to get stroked over a guitar design these days, and it doesn't even have to be half-decent.

And no one would really give you an answer without at least seeing them anyway...I mean, if you were on the other end of the question, how would you answer it yourself armed with nothing but what you've said so far?

Why do you think your illustrations are so valuable? (I'm asking that seriously)

Are you prepared to document and legally represent your ideas to the point of patent?

Because if not, you've got nothing there but some illustrations, nothing more.

Do you know what you have to do to make that happen, timewise, financially and legally?

Do you understand what it takes for any manufacturer, no matter how small or big, to want to put into production a new design of guitar when all you did was to draw a few pictures? Not trying to downplay your work, but this is, in fact, what you're asking someone to do, you draw some stuff up, and want to get paid for it, and someone has to draw up the business plans and put them up to serious scrutiny to make it a profitable venture, do you know how much time and effort that takes simply on the weight of a few illustrations?

It's like you're asking someone else to do 98% of the work so you can make some easy money.

Maybe I'm wrong, that's the way I see it tho.

I think you should build it really, whatever it is.

[spacecowboy]

Hi drak.

Thanks for your reply. I had a feeling i would get these questions.

Lets say you would want to. I would send you an email asking you if in fact you are interested i will send you my design. If you are not interested afterwards all i ask is you do not steal it or share it.

If lets say my partner would agree in with me i would want to patent it, and work finacially and legally.

I understand that its not an easy task and 99% would be pessimistic of the idea. I would pay 50% of construction and other costs. I design someone would build thats the trade off. All the builders imput would be received in the design also. We would be payed 50/50 also. Its a partnert ship. I'm not the boss.

Both would be equal of gain equal the risk.

I would build it myself. But i don't have any tools. And it's not my expertise.

I also know autoCad so i could build a model in scale for blueprints and dimensioning.

I thought it was kind of fair, please reply drak I could be blindsighted. Thanks for your comments!

Edited January 19, 2007 by spacecowboy

[GregP]

Can't PM this, which is my preference since I'm not really in a position to be didactic about dreaming big... I'm a small dreamer... But our PM system seems disabled unless I'm blind.

You're better off working out a deal with a custom builder in which you simply commission a guitar like any other of his/her customers and you retain the rights to the design. If it's truly your own design, I doubt any respectable builder would have any trouble with that. If nothing ever comes of it, you at least get to see your concept come alive as a guitar that you get to keep with no questions asked. You don't own "50%" of a guitar, you own a whole guitar.

I also don't imagine for the life of me that you could sell a design to a company. Sure, some companies get out-of-house work done, but they know who to call and they make that call. And those calls are made to players in the game. Cort liked Pagelli's work, so they called him up and hired him to design a guitar. Samick knew they could leverage Greg Bennett's designs (though, I have to say, I had never heard of him before the Samick relaunch)... and I'm sure there are other examples. But the vast majority of new designs are in-house, with the staggering majority of guitars sold still just being recycled designs (Strat.. Les Paul...) These large companies will have a whole team of people whose job it is just to come up with new designs.

I'm not the sort to tread on anyone's dreams, but I have seen dreams turn to misery when the reality of this world wasn't accounted for, and I would save you that misery with this advice: if you really believe in your designs, you must at least re-think your approach. Building a prototype in order to pitch it to a company just isn't going to work. Either start small building your own (or sourcing someone to build them for you) or try to find out how to get your toe in the industry as a designer. I recommend post-secondary education in some sort of design (commercial, industrial, architectural) but I imagine there are any number of avenues you could take in order to develop a portfolio worth taking to the industry. Your best bet is trying to get one of those jobs I already mentioned-- part of a design team. You won't make millions from a few drawings, but you could design for a living and make a salary. THAT is a pretty cool "realistic" dream... and if your work is truly astonishing, you'll be in position to make yourself indispensible.

There's very little chance that a collection of designs, unless they are truly genius to the point that everyone who sees them says "holy crap!!!" and you suddenly get a phone call from known people saying, "I heard from Bob who heard from Jim who knows Sheryl Crowe's guitarist that my life will never be the same after seeing these." There are such stories that have come true in this world (and therefore are not out of the realm of possibility) but which I suspect won't be the case here. Dream big, dream creatively, but dream healthy.

Greg

[Mickguard]

I say, why not? Most companies have designers on their staff, if they're smart, because they realize that engineers aren't always the most creative types.

On the other, asking about this here or online...nope. I think you're better off looking for a partner in your area ---find an experienced luthier who dreams of building a unique design but doesn't necessarily have the design capability. That way you can work together tweaking the design to make it work for the designer, the player and the builder.

Will you get rich at this? Well, if that's your motivation, I wouldn't bother at all. You never know of course. But if your true goal is to play and see others play YOUR designs, then go for it.

At a minimum, you can always learn how to build them yourself. Might take a couple of years, depending on what kind of skill level you have. But then, you'll truly be able to call it your guitar.

[erikbojerik]

---find an experienced luthier who dreams of building a unique design but doesn't necessarily have the design capability.

Call me skeptical, but how does a person arrive at that situation? And what is "design capability" really? I've noodled with original designs, like probably a lot of people have, and I don't really see what "design capability" I don't already have. It's all between my ears.

For the life of me, I can't see how someone could arrive at lutherie without first having been a player (forgive me Leo, that was almost 60 years ago....). And I'd imagine that most decent luthiers are creative enough to make up their own designs at least in concept.

Greg nailed it, go 100 yards with an established luthier to demonstrate your proof of concept, I think you'll learn a lot from the back & forth even before any wood is cut. I think any design would be much more successful coming at least in part from someone who's already built some instruments. Appearance is one thing, it must be playable...and I think you will be more successful to design it from the inside out with some lutherie experience in hand.

[rhoads56]

---find an experienced luthier who dreams of building a unique design but doesn't necessarily have the design capability.

Call me skeptical, but how does a person arrive at that situation? And what is "design capability" really? I've noodled with original designs, like probably a lot of people have, and I don't really see what "design capability" I don't already have. It's all between my ears.

For the life of me, I can't see how someone could arrive at lutherie without first having been a player (forgive me Leo, that was almost 60 years ago....). And I'd imagine that most decent luthiers are creative enough to make up their own designs at least in concept.

Greg nailed it, go 100 yards with an established luthier to demonstrate your proof of concept, I think you'll learn a lot from the back & forth even before any wood is cut. I think any design would be much more successful coming at least in part from someone who's already built some instruments. Appearance is one thing, it must be playable...and I think you will be more successful to design it from the inside out with some lutherie experience in hand.

Yup, agreed. The guys who are "making it in this business" dont need the design input (eg: here is a model, build it and give me money), and the guys who arent "making it", arent making it for a reason (bad business practices/customer service, lack of knowledge/reputation, bad workmanship, for example). Ok, this is a bit of a broad stereotype, but essentually its true.

I dont get people approaching me with this kind of vibe too often, maybe once a month. My experience is that they think they have the worlds most unique design/idea, when in fact, most of the ideas ive seen have been done before, some even by myself! The others are just a mismatch of ideas that dont gel together, and look hideous. Hopefully this idea is different, and im only going by my limited (been approached by 40-50 people?) experience so far. Every single time, i simply suggest that they purchase the guitar, custom built to their specs, and then they (or me) can show it off. That way im not losing money on someone elses dream, and they can get the thing built to get true responses whilst shopping it around. They NEVER go ahead with it, which is pretty much exactly the responce i was after (some designs are hideous, and i wouldnt take them on even at double my normal rates, but you know, beauty is in the eye of the beholder).

So, my advice is to front up the cash, and get someone to build it for you. No guitar company will buy your "pencil on paper" ideas, but they may be interested if you show you are so enthused and committed to this idea, that you had a working sample commissioned. Know what i mean?? Id rate your chances as very slim to nil, as most companies already have extensive design teams (technical ideas), experienced luthiers (experience) , enthusiastic employees (ideas), warranty repair networks (feedback/experience), retailers (feedback/experience), and customers who support them (feedback/needs).

An example of an idea/concept that was turned down: The PRS design. Paul Reed Smith shopped his designs (actual working guitars) around to NUMEROUS guitar companies, and only one was semi interested... Yamaha, with a offer of a $2000 once off payment (and if i recall 1% of wholesale cost as commission). PRS wanted $75,000 up front and 5% of retail. He obviously ended up in a better spot, but it could have gone the other way.

If this design/idea is truely world beating, stick your neck out and have one built, and patent the hell out of it. Or, invest the required $20,000-150,000 and make some money elsewhere

[Doeringer]

Both would be equal of gain equal the risk.

yes but what you keep missing is one will do the vast majority of the work. I agree with the others that stated that you should commission (Pay for) the work. There are many that will "ghost build" for you and possibly even cut you a deal on several pieces. Good Luck, and since you recently joined, stay awhile, read up on some of the past threads and get a better idea of how the business works and where you truly feel your designs match up to other designs.

[spacecowboy]

Thanks guys for posting, I was curious about what people would say. I mostly figured what would be said but i also got alot of information from the posts. I will use this information wisely!

I will most likely pay a luthier to build me one. Because i do understand how hard it is to put ur foot in that door but I'm fairly confident. I have an Illustration&Design D.E.C. Which has trained me in not just illustration but also designing products and creating blueprints and models.

Anyways thanks!

[thegarehanman]

So it's a marketing excercise design? In that case, pitch it to danelectro or gibson, it seems that they're going that direction lately. As for your blueprints and what not, do yourself a favor switch to SolidWorks. AutoCAD seems a bit archaic when it comes to the world of solid modeling. As for my take on your propposition, I stand by most of what's been said in this thread: pay to have it built, try for the best, expect the worst...

peace,

russ

[spacecowboy]

Thanks thegarehanman. SolidWorks, ya autocad is very glitchy, gives bad geometry, i might just do it in 3dmax, that way i can control the edgeflow. I'll see thanks.

You cant pitch it to gibson. I emailed them as to how to go about pitching them an idea and they said they wont because they have a team, and if they would they can become liable. Maybe Danelectro? I'll look into it thanks.

[rhoads56]

bla bla bla.... They NEVER go ahead with it, which is pretty much exactly the responce i was after (some designs are hideous, and i wouldnt take them on even at double my normal rates, but you know, beauty is in the eye of the beholder).

Actually, there has been ONE who went ahead with getting the prototypes built. One from a previous luthier, and now one from me. I suggested a bunch of ideas which have changed the design somewhat, but essentually its someone elses design (and business). Didnt even think about it, because im not up to that build yet This guy has massive financial backing, and government grants, so he has at least had a head start on the majority.

[Mickguard]

You cant pitch it to gibson. I emailed them as to how to go about pitching them an idea and they said they wont because they have a team, and if they would they can become liable. Maybe Danelectro? I'll look into it thanks.

Danelectro's just making poorly 'updated' copies of the original designs these days. Don't know who the new license-holders are, but they're really botching the job. But there's no point pitching to them, that's not at all what they're about. Same with Gibson, really. They're just brand-holders milking old designs.

I still say, find a compatible luthier and work with him --if your design sells guitars for him, then you're already pulling your weight. No point in working with someone who doesn't believe in you or your designs, that's for sure.

But I agree, if you're really committed to the design, then you'll get one built-- you'll have to, at least a prototype, just to see what it's like, if it works or not.

[Mickguard]

(oops double post)

[thegarehanman]

Ok, the gibson/danelectro thing was a joke. but...yeah...nevermind I guess

[Desopolis]

just to give you a example, because I dont know how far into designing your guitars you've gotten, let me show you what I do when Im bored

That sketchbook is FULL of pages of designs and concepts that are both new or modified to some degree. The note paper is part of a set of double sided drawings when my sketchbook was in the car and I was to cold to go get it. The little graph paper was given to me at the lumber yard and is sizings for a design as well as a lamination idea I have.

Ive been doing this about a year, and my guitars are still in Need of finish(whenever I can get them to Texas)

Im one guy, who plays and now builds..

Now figure, across the WORLD how many people out there have a dream guitar, now figure how many members are on THIS and the other building boards. Then the groups and design teams for the large companies that get PAID to concept and field study. Now figure that the ELECTRIC guitar as WE know it started in the 50's(earlyer I know, but the first that resemble todays). Thats 57 years of time.

this isnt the era of the log, or even the invention of the double cut stratocaster. Hell the explorer and firebird were crazy ideas once. Its going to be VERY hard to come out with a design that hasnt already been done to some degree(in the end, there are only so many configurations for a block of wood) or that is going to change the industry enough for a LARGE company to pick it up.

The best way to make a mark in the Industry is to build, quality artistic instruments and develop a name for yourself. Then after a while let your designs speak for themselves, and we've all heard about companies picking up PROVEN designs, or contact PROVEN luthiers for quality work.

[rhoads56]

I guess we need to pose the question (and use "rock" electric guitars as an example), when was the last great guitar idea designed and released? Of course, this is my view, based on my influences...

Was it the PRS which really took off in 1985?

Was it the JEM/RG (which is a derivative of the Jackson Soloist/Dinky) from the mid eighties?

Was it the Jackson Rhoads from the early eighties?

Was it Eddies frankenstrat which started the whole 'superstrat' theme in the late seventies?

Was it the Explorer/V from the late 50's?

Was it the Les Paul from the mid 50s?

Was it the Strat or tele which started it all?

There are a lot of holes in that timeline... big periods of nothing new and amazing. Its time for a new idea to come out to blow away the marketplace...

[Mickguard]

There are a lot of holes in that timeline... big periods of nothing new and amazing. Its time for a new idea to come out to blow away the marketplace...

No kidding. The fact that there might a hundred, or even many thousands of people dreaming up guitar designs is completely beside the point. And even if many of these were taking a truly professional approach to this, it still doesn't matter.

It'd be like saying, well, since there are thousands of bands making music, no point in trying.

I think the advantage of the 50s era is that they really were coming up with an entirely new instrument, something that simply didn't exist on any kind of scale.

So if you're really looking to revolutionize the guitar world with your design, then look at it from the point of view of developing a new type of instrument based on the old-fashioned electric guitar design.

Could be interesting. Every time I see a video of one of those finger-tapping-doodler types, I have to wonder if they wouldn't be better served with an instrument that fits that style of play.

[GregP]

Chapman Stick.

[Drak]

Steerheads. :D B)

[Desopolis]

my point is that just because you have something on paper doesnt mean people will take it as groundbreaking. There are TONS of designs that were different, but if no one ever built them, they wouldn't mean anything.

[spacecowboy]

Thanks guys! My friend knows a luthier hes known for building good guitars he sells them for around 3k. Hopefully he might be interesting in some new concept designs.

Ya I know everyone designs guitars. Looking at your thumbnails, they dont look like mine I start a thumbnail and if it looks to much like another guitar I'll toss it. I have a way of designing that I've learnt threw schooling and practice (i'm not being rude to your designs their just different).

And I know everyone dreams up guitars. But maybe I'm just hoping mine will make it. Time will tell I guess.

Edited January 20, 2007 by spacecowboy

[GregP]

Any company that I can think of that's achieving moderate success took an idea and found its own funding. Chapman... that newish company with the weird bodies that seems to have found its way onto a few magazine covers (I know, that doesn't help much. <chuckle>)... the original Steinberger.... Part of it, I'm sure, is that you won't hear about the specific "designers" very often when a company comes out with a new model. But I suspect that the majority of it is that the big companies (as stated already a few times) have their own design teams. It's pretty much-- if you have a dream, you have to make it happen on your own. PRS pulled it off and STILL only have 2 basic styles (with a few variations).

Greg

[erikbojerik]

To be honest, most of the new and interesting body designs that I've seen are basses. For whatever reason, bassist are not in such a rut (like guitarists) when it comes to body shape. Guitarists I think automatically connect a sound/tone to a specific body shape and go off that.