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I Can Help You With Your Kahler Questions.


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Sorry, I just got done watching a documentary about Wal-mart. Makes one leery. So if the guy's legitimately here to help out, I apologize.

I'm sure you can find a vendor for your tinfoil hat on Slashdot, Mick :D

In any case, I agree that his first post should have been in the auction/classified section. Since we have a bunch of people, including myself, that do have legit questions about setup and maintenance of the new-generation Kahlers, I don't think a thread in the main discussion will hurt anything.

Are the 2300 units made better than the new 7300s? It seems like it's Fender vs. Squier here or something like that.

Oooh...first thunderstorm of the year...I better shut down!

Alot of people ask me that question. What is the diff? Why the 2 models that look the same. The answer is simple.

In the past things were handmade to some extent. Now just the pro line is handmade.

The hybrid and X trem are factory made and less expensive because of this. They are molded and such, not machined by hand.

The Factory made versions have extra features because it can easily be incorporated in the factory.

The Hybrid is USA made the X-tem is made offshore. The X-trem is for the offshore OEM's and their import guitars. The Hybrid is made for the end user and USA custom guitars.

That's why its made here. If its a Kahler on the guitar it is an import. If its in the store its a Hybrid. It also says the name on it so you will know the diff.

Some may feel this is a inferior piece next to the handmade. Absolutely wrong! The biggest decision we made back in 2004 was to NOT change the mechanics, feel and general tone at all. So they all share the same specs. Just manufactured differently. The pro line also has the choice of cams. I like the Hybrid cam myself, as it not so thin sounding like the steel cams are. Just my biased opinion. Lol

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That arm hole is not badly machined, that is chamfered that way on purpose to eliminate cross threading. All Kahler cam systems have his since the 80's

i think you misunderstand me...the arm drags on the black one i have as if the threads are binding.the chrome one i have does not do this...but that is very minor.

What is not flat on the bottom?

the base...it is slightly warped.it makes a difference because i need them to sit flat.maybe it is just that particulr unit.again the chrome one i have does not have this issue

not sure what this is about....ss? black ones? you talkin rollers?

no just the intonation screw...you know how when you string it up the string almost touches the intonation screw behind the roller?it is an oval head screw and it just causes a bit of a rattle if the saddle is set low.some of us

like pretty low action and having strings close to the body near the bridge as well...don't get me wrong,i know next time to create a neck angle to raise string clearance to the body so the saddles sit higher.i justwish it would have been mentioned in the literature because it is not apparent just by looking at the bridge...and it is very difficult right now to find a working guitar with a kahler to look at in the stores...aside from the haneman model and the kerry king model,i really know of none.

these are just suggestions anyway,because most of us are very unfamiliar with these trems...an installation sheet would be a REALLYgreat thing to include in the box...you know,saddle height,stuff like that

please don't read this as antagonistic.i just have to type in a hurry ecause my net kicks me off alot and i lose my post

I will take your suggestions and apply them. thanks.

Warped ....wow. thats a bizarre one for sure. Hey I will replace it..no prob. Please..I insist!

The black arms plating on the threads will make it stiff for a few days till its worked in. This is normal

About this screw hitting the string.... read the post i answered about this. Your saddles need to be no less than 10:30 oclock. THIS IS MUCHO IMPORTANTE OK? Recess the trem if necessary. I will post some help in this area.

Yeah im getting tired too. be back tomorow.

good nite all.

Wammi

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Thanks for the quick reply to the first question on PG! :D I was hoping Khaler would be my answer, but alas...

It's so dang hard finding headless trem parts. Unless you wanna drop $450 for an S-Trem...

Greg

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mick,you must stop using this forum to spout your political beliefs.you must realize very few in the world are going to agree with you.

i edited your post...try to avoid the politics...especially in the build sections...there is really no excuse to go off on a political tangent like that

edited to reflect mick's sensitivities(j/k)

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i am also curious about the 2300.i find them to be near impossible to buy and i would readily pay extra if it is a flawless unit.idon't buy parts to be cheap,i buy them to be flawless.if i wanted cheap i would buy an already built ltd...they cost less than just the parts and wood for that explorer i built.

not that i am saying the 7300 is cheap or flawed.i justwonder if the machining flaws are still being "debugged"

as far as a locking nut,a behind the nut is already available,and the site says a one piece is coming soon(last time i was there)...but a floyd nut works fine...that is what i used on mine

Wes,

Nothing we make is cheap. believe me NUTHING! It may get a defect here and there but i really don't hear many complaints. Everyone seems to like them.

Flawless? No such animal. Even the Pro line can have a flaw. After all its a hand machined piece. If there are any defects they will be worked out. This happened in the 80's too, in the beginning.

If you remember the Kahler was THEE bridge of the 80's decade. Floyd was but a speck then. I bet a lot of you did not know that Kahler made Floyds for Floyd and not just the Kahler Floyds either, but the Pro Floyds too.

What is a one piece nut? Where does it say that?

The 2300 is available through Kahler USA. It is $329.00. Its not hard to find. just type in Kahler in google and were on top.

Now I also would like to address something important here. I have read some of these posts and I can tell that alot of your members here are really unfamiliar with a Kahler trem and how it is properly mounted and set up. I hear of saddle intonation screws touching strings. I hear rumors and gossip and things that are sparked by misinformation and simple guessing. I am here to help quell this. I will post all the important aspects of a Kahler cam setup for you all to adhere too. Please dont slam me here. I am trying to help, not disagree ok?

First and foremost....You all seem to have this idea that the saddles should be low...so low in fact that the intonation screws are touching the string. This is not setup properly. You have a major loss of sustain and the string can and will fall off during a deep dive bomb. The saddles should be at 10:30 o'clock. With this in mind recess the trem accordingly. That is very important.

Secondly, about string sizes. We really don't see a problem with the string hooks breaking....yet. This has started recently from the heavier guage strings that are popular now. The string hook is only so big - (.60) and is quite strong but i believe it is breaking these days more often because the cardinal string rule for Kahlers is not adhered to. Rule #1 bend the string windings at a soft 45 degree bend to eleviate ball spin in the hook. When it re-seats wrong and get pulled....SNAP.

And # 2.....dont use big strings beyond whats recommended (10-46).

I see a new trend coming. The crossover guitar/ bass. The trend is to make a guitar that goes deep like a bass. To have more strings, farther range...ect. I have already fielded a question asking if a bass string would work on a 8 string! But these trems (the 2300 and the 7300) are made for the 80's era mainly, and work perfectly for those not willing to stretch its limits beyond a 6 string and normal guage strings . This is becoming apparent now I have used kahlers for 24 years and NEVER broke a string hook yet. And I have a guitar with 54's. go figure.

I hope this helps abit.

I am happy to talk to any of you personally if you need some guidence. I will be happy to call you on my dime, just email me your request and phone# to wammi@wammiusa.com

Wammi

Edited by Wammi
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I hear rumors and gossip and things that are sparked by misinformation and simple guessing.

maybe so.but that is my point.that info needs to be easily available.then there will be no guesswork.you of course must know that we are striving to make our guitars as perfect as possible.so if the info is there we will use it :D

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Secondly, about string sizes. We really don't see a problem with the string hooks breaking....yet. This has started recently from the heavier guage strings that are popular now. The string hook is only so big - (.60) and is quite strong but i believe it is breaking these days more often because the cardinal string rule for Kahlers is not adhered to. Rule #1 bend the string windings at a soft 45 degree bend to eleviate ball spin in the hook. When it re-seats wrong and get pulled....SNAP.

I've never used a Kahler, but am considering it. Is this "cardinal rule" included with the instructions for the trem? You've gotta know that 9/10 guys who buy the trem will slap it on the instrument and string up without ever reading any of the scraps of paper that come with it, unless they have a problem. Yes the smart consumer should read the manual before proceeding, but at the same time, a bomb-proof design will have been engineered with this in mind.

And # 2.....dont use big strings beyond whats recommended (10-46).

So, exactly what strings are you supposed to use with the 7- and 8-string trems? Are the string hooks identical to the 6s? The engineers had to have known that those extra strings weren't going to be on the light end....right?

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And # 2.....dont use big strings beyond whats recommended (10-46).

So, exactly what strings are you supposed to use with the 7- and 8-string trems? Are the string hooks identical to the 6s? The engineers had to have known that those extra strings weren't going to be on the light end....right?

Erik, read the entire thread, you will find the answer!

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So, John...

If I had a way to bring the strings up to pitch first (eg., a "surrogate headstock" that's used just for that very job), do you imagine that the Kahler could then "take over" sufficiently, on a headless design?

Man...

Khaler has the manufacturing capabilities. They could make a small profit on headless trem systems if they designed and sold one. It's a niche market, to be sure. Sales wouldn't be even close to traditional Kahler... but you could make it worth the R&D I bet.

---

Regarding installation-- the literature I've read seems to imply that you don't need to recess the trem into a guitar if it has a flat top. It's good to know that's not the case; however, it doesn't make routing quite the "snap" that the literature implies, either. No way to get the baseplate that extra millimetre lower so that it wouldn't be necessary?

Greg

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I hear rumors and gossip and things that are sparked by misinformation and simple guessing.

maybe so.but that is my point.that info needs to be easily available.then there will be no guesswork.you of course must know that we are striving to make our guitars as perfect as possible.so if the info is there we will use it :D

I am learning that...

here are the updated specs. Note the body to saddle height measurements.

http://www.wammiusa.com/Hybrid_specs.html

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So, John...

If I had a way to bring the strings up to pitch first (eg., a "surrogate headstock" that's used just for that very job), do you imagine that the Kahler could then "take over" sufficiently, on a headless design?

Man...

Khaler has the manufacturing capabilities. They could make a small profit on headless trem systems if they designed and sold one. It's a niche market, to be sure. Sales wouldn't be even close to traditional Kahler... but you could make it worth the R&D I bet.

---

Regarding installation-- the literature I've read seems to imply that you don't need to recess the trem into a guitar if it has a flat top. It's good to know that's not the case; however, it doesn't make routing quite the "snap" that the literature implies, either. No way to get the baseplate that extra millimetre lower so that it wouldn't be necessary?

Greg

I love guys like you man. Smart. If you can do that then YES it will work. as for the R&D stuff. I think steinberg has a patent on that. i know we talked about it 2 years ago and let it go. You develop something that we wont have to change on our trems then you got yourself a niche market. hehehe. Smart guy gets worm!

About the liturature and mis-dis information out there. I am writing it all out and actively getting it out there. It is on the site...in the newsletters, NOT in the manual but ....i digress here....we are lax in updating to the new ideas and liturature because frankly we are overwhelmed in the actual act of manufacturing. This year there was 16 OEMs at namm with Kahlers on them last year there was.......1. Its the 80's al over. Floyd id dead. You will see them in every store in the next year or so on 1 guitar or another. You all just feed me your needs and i will post the answers for the world to see. I sometimes am ignorant to others needs. Im in my own little world here. enclosed behind the fish bowl...Lol

Its a rat race.

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thanks for the dimensions and all the help.

one note though.if you really want to kill the floyd market then you are well on the way...BUT as long as floyd can accept ANY guage string and kahler can't,you will find it tough to take over the 6 string heavy guage market.

as you said earlier,if you made larger ball clips available,or even special kahlers set up to accept those heavier strings,then you wold be golden and i would never buy a floyd again.

as i said,i personally use lights,but i am building some on my next run for others...and some of them love the 11s(even though i think that is a silly string gauge to use)

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thanks for the dimensions and all the help.

one note though.if you really want to kill the floyd market then you are well on the way...BUT as long as floyd can accept ANY guage string and kahler can't,you will find it tough to take over the 6 string heavy guage market.

as you said earlier,if you made larger ball clips available,or even special kahlers set up to accept those heavier strings,then you wold be golden and i would never buy a floyd again.

as i said,i personally use lights,but i am building some on my next run for others...and some of them love the 11s(even though i think that is a silly string gauge to use)

Wes,

I have already asked to get heavy hooks as an option for you to buy aftermarket just for the heavies. I did this today. Just because of this forum. I am waiting for the answer. As simple as it sounds to do though...its not. It must be factored in "the big plan" ect ect. So the answer wont be ....tommorow so to speak, but i believe its inevitable. By the way...the fat adapter plate is my brainchild and will help get floyds off guitars and kahler on them....retrofit style. Did you see it? Its not really for you new builders...unless you mess up your route. See it here: http://www.wammiusa.com/Fat.html

Wammi

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This year there was 16 OEMs at namm with Kahlers on them last year there was.......1. Its the 80's al over. Floyd id dead.

With my marketing hat on, I'm curious as to WHY...

Are players getting tired of locking strings and allen wrenches?

Is it the routing thing if you wanna pull a Floyd up?

Does the Floyd have an "image problem" being too closely associated with hair-metal crowd?

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Wes,

I have already asked to get heavy hooks as an option for you to buy aftermarket just for the heavies. I did this today. Just because of this forum. I am waiting for the answer. As simple as it sounds to do though...its not

i understand..i know how going through the proper channels works,but i am glad you are doing it.i think it can only help.

p90...as a long time floyd user(15 years),i can tell you that to this day i don't like the rout involved,the way the edges wear out and affect tuning,cutting off the ball ends,the complicated intonation setting procedure,constantly flipping the guitar to adjust the spring tension,then tune it,then adjust,then tune...

the great thing about the kahler is that all of the adjustments are done from the top,with the strings on....

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p90...as a long time floyd user(15 years),i can tell you that to this day i don't like the rout involved,the way the edges wear out and affect tuning,cutting off the ball ends,the complicated intonation setting procedure,constantly flipping the guitar to adjust the spring tension,then tune it,then adjust,then tune...

the great thing about the kahler is that all of the adjustments are done from the top,with the strings on....

And that's the selling point for me, right there. This is just an awesome thread, and it's cool to see end users talking directly to people actually involved in the product more than just the marketing aspect. Doesn't happen nearly enough, in my opinion.

Not a hardcore trem user myself, I don't think I'll be contributing much to this thread, though having played many a Floyd setup, I can only support the group's collective effort to "kill off" that beast. Man, do I hate that setup... Ere I build a guitar with a trem (proposed build #3), I'm going Kahler definitely.

Greg, when you mentioned building a surrogate neck, the first thing I thought of was just taking a neckthrough blank and slapping a bridge and tuners on it. It could definitely be done.

Just a thought RE: heavier gauge strings and clips, if the 7 and 8-string tremolos are built to accommodate heavier-gauge strings, couldn't one buy the required replacement part from the 7-string series and swap them? You'd have one piece left over, yeah, but if people are running into the same problems as Wes is, it would probably be worth it.

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xanthus,

It would only be the headstock that would need to be surrogate. You could even have a 1-tuner version (tune up one string at a time), but if I did it, I'd personally use 6 tuners in a "paddle", just like a regular headstock. This headstock would somehow form a medium-secure to the headless end of the neck (it doesn't have to actually be a stable headstock), and you would tune up as per usual. You could even muck around for a while and do your best to stretch out the strings, and retune again. Then you would lock down, snip off the excess string, and "remove" (remembering that it's not really all that securely attached to begin with) the headstock.

Then, when your strings go flat from further stretching, the Kahler thumbscrews should provide enough travel to bring it back to pitch.

I can't afford to pursue a patent, and there's probably already been one applied for. :D

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This year there was 16 OEMs at namm with Kahlers on them last year there was.......1. Its the 80's al over. Floyd id dead.

With my marketing hat on, I'm curious as to WHY...

Are players getting tired of locking strings and allen wrenches?

Is it the routing thing if you wanna pull a Floyd up?

Does the Floyd have an "image problem" being too closely associated with hair-metal crowd?

actually its because he now makes his own line of guitars and if you want the new speedloader you have to buy HIS strings. No one likes to be forced. and the fact that you cut the ball end off is a pain for some.

Edited by Wammi
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p90...as a long time floyd user(15 years),i can tell you that to this day i don't like the rout involved,the way the edges wear out and affect tuning,cutting off the ball ends,the complicated intonation setting procedure,constantly flipping the guitar to adjust the spring tension,then tune it,then adjust,then tune...

the great thing about the kahler is that all of the adjustments are done from the top,with the strings on....

And that's the selling point for me, right there. This is just an awesome thread, and it's cool to see end users talking directly to people actually involved in the product more than just the marketing aspect. Doesn't happen nearly enough, in my opinion.

Not a hardcore trem user myself, I don't think I'll be contributing much to this thread, though having played many a Floyd setup, I can only support the group's collective effort to "kill off" that beast. Man, do I hate that setup... Ere I build a guitar with a trem (proposed build #3), I'm going Kahler definitely.

Greg, when you mentioned building a surrogate neck, the first thing I thought of was just taking a neckthrough blank and slapping a bridge and tuners on it. It could definitely be done.

Just a thought RE: heavier gauge strings and clips, if the 7 and 8-string tremolos are built to accommodate heavier-gauge strings, couldn't one buy the required replacement part from the 7-string series and swap them? You'd have one piece left over, yeah, but if people are running into the same problems as Wes is, it would probably be worth it.

I am glad i can help here...I am stoked! About your last statement: That is exactly what i asked them. Can we sell them to those who need them (its not a huge market yet) but its getting bigger. They are looking into it for me. Anyhow it WILL happen one way or another as i am head of the parts department and i have the authority to do what is best for the customer. I will have some in inventory eventually like i have every other part for all the other models here. The new stuff is in short supply right now and will get better as time goes on.

Wammi

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and if you want the new speedloader you have to buy HIS strings.

yeah but to be fair i have one of those systems and they work well.the strings are good too.very similar to dadarrios or dean markely.

which is why i don't understand why greg won't just stop wishing for something else and just use the speedloader on that headless he has been talking about for years now.i keep suggesting it.in my opinion for a headless a speedloader is the way to go

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Guitarpartsdepot doesn't even carry them anymore. I had a look a while ago for a black one, and they only had chrome left. Then I looked a few days ago and they didn't have any at all! Where do you suggest I get one? :D I have very low confidence that the strings will be available past the next few years or so.

Man, it HAS been years that I've been wanting a headless...

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