In Need Of Brazilian Rosewood

[argytar]

Hello there! this is argytar from greece europe.

I am looking for a couple of brazilian rosewood fretboard blanks but noone sends outside usa and i can t seem to find anyone in europe that has them...

so the question is: does anyone of you have any for sale or know any european suppliers?? I found magadascar rosewood in one spanish site? does it have the same tone with brazilian? by the way i am trying to build a les paul 50 s style.

any help will be super appreciated! thanks fellas!

[Mattia]

Some of the Spaniards might have some, but, mostly, madagascan rosewood will do just fine as a drop in replacement. Nobody will send brazilian over national borders without paperwork, and the paperwork for a single fretboard will be far, far more expensive than that fretboard is worth. If you can find an exotics wood dealer in your country (which is...?), they might have some, somewhere.

[fryovanni]

Mattia is right on the money. CITES paper work, and international shipping of BRW is a mess.

Mad.RW is awsome and count on it becoming just as difficult to get as BRW within a few years. I would bet you would have trouble picking a BRW fretboard out of a lineup with mad rose if you are not very familiar with the difference, and the difference in "tone" on a finished guitar... well the chances of you being able to Identify the difference is slighter than the raw wood. You may even prefer Mad rose (kinda works funny like that, one is not always better just different).

Peace,Rich

[mikhailgtrski]

I found three very nice BRW fingerboards on eBay last year, shipped from Australia with no problem...

And, no, I'm not parting with any of them.

[Mattia]

...given both you and the shipper broke international and national laws in doing so, it might not be the best of ideas to, y'know, advertise that fact. Just a thought. There was a major crackdown in Brazil and the US not so long ago, several arrests, all regarding illegal exports of Brazilian Rosewood.

[mikhailgtrski]

BRW means "black raw walnut" doesn't it?

That particular BRW was quite old, cut well before CITES was even a thought, so it didn't bother my conscience. But I do understand where you're coming from, Mattia.

[Mattia]

Oh, I'm sure it was, as was the stuff I've got (local shop, though, stupidly didn't grab all of it when I could, next time I went it was all gone), but them's the laws of the lands.

[fryovanni]

I think Mattia is just trying to make sure that everyone understands the laws involved with BRW. The people he is talking about did not get a hefty fine, they are looking at jail time. If you buy it from someone in your country and it is old stock and sold as such that is one thing, but as soon as you are part of shipping across borders that is something else. There are a couple of ebayers I have seen that are selling Brazilian Rosewood(did not look like old growth, and definately not "stump" wood(not that it would make much difference) and are shipping it internationally. Some people have been claiming the wood is reclaimed wood from this or that, but again most of the time that is not true. I would personally not deal with them, if you are on the recieving side, you are breaking international law just as they are, and I wouldn't fool yourself into thinking these things are not trackable. Just not worth the risks involved for a fretboard.

Mike I know your a smart guy and wouldn't mess with these things if it was not legit, but for the guys who don't understand, it is better to let them know before they get involved in something they shouldn't. CITES is getting confusing. Most know about BRW, but woods like Genuine Mahogany are now being controlled, and they are looking at several others. Rosewoods from Madagascar(will be a challenge in the near future), Honduran RW, Zircote, Cocobolo, Grandillo and so on and so forth are all being looked close at. I would imagine in the next few years things are going to become a real pain in the butt.

Peace,Rich

[mikhailgtrski]

Thanks Rich, very good of you and Mattia to clarify this issue for the rest of us. I for one wasn't aware of the ramifications of being on the receiving end. Fortunately I'm done looking for any more BRW - got enough to keep me busy for years, at the rate I'm going.

BTW - how's the electrical business "south of the border" these days? We're up to our eyeballs in work.

[fryovanni]

Thanks Rich, very good of you and Mattia to clarify this issue for the rest of us. I for one wasn't aware of the ramifications of being on the receiving end. Fortunately I'm done looking for any more BRW - got enough to keep me busy for years, at the rate I'm going.

BTW - how's the electrical business "south of the border" these days? We're up to our eyeballs in work.

We are still rolling down here. Just picked up a couple nice new projects, it is looking like we will be going into next year strong again. Condo's are slowing, and many are going apts. now. You seeing the same up north?

Peace,Rich

[mikhailgtrski]

Condo's are slowing, and many are going apts. now. You seeing the same up north?

Yup, we're starting to see that trend as well.

(back on topic ) ...argytar, I hope you find some good rosewood for your project. A nice East Indian RW fingerboard isn't such a bad thing... a good quality piece can sometimes rival BRW for looks.

[argytar]

hi again!

i didn t really know all these details so people... thank you very much it really isn t worth the trouble...

is the brw in these guitars only for looks? i mean does it have such a different tone that the warmoth site puts it in a whole different tone category???

anyway madagascar rosewood is sold inside the european union so i guess that might be cool to try

btw does anyone know what constructing differences make those 50s les pauls the 'holy grail' of tone?

is it the pafs with the old Co in AlNiCo? Is it the aluminum tailpiece? the long tenon neck? the honduran mahogany ? the braz rosewood? the hands of eric clapton maybe?? hmm

thanks for your help guys i really appreciate it!

[WezV]

btw does anyone know what constructing differences make those 50s les pauls the 'holy grail' of tone?

is it the pafs with the old Co in AlNiCo? Is it the aluminum tailpiece? the long tenon neck? the honduran mahogany ? the braz rosewood? the hands of eric clapton maybe?? hmm

if i knew i wouldn't tell ya

The truth of the matter is that not all of them were that brilliant. The good ones were being passed between some pretty good players at a golden age in music and they are the sounds we have all grown up with.

Lets focus on one aspect such as the PAF pickups which are often spouted as somehow truly magical . They are quoted as using M55 alnico magnets with around 5000 coils of AWG42 on each coil for a combined resistance of 8Kohms.

The truth is that they used whatever magnets they could get there hands on, and they new that they where not all the same. Gibson even marked the magnets to tell the difference but not many people get to take a PAF apart to know that, they were fully aware that it wasnt the same magnet in each pickup.

Then the windings, it typical could vary by as much as 20% so really a PAf falls somewhere between 6.4 and 9.6kOhms.

I havnt even worried about whether the bobbins had a square hole or what the baseplate was made from.

So what make PAF's the holy grail of pickups???

the same goes for the whole guitars, its possible that a combination of tiny factors somehow add up to make a 50's les paul better than anything anyone else could ever make - - or maybe its all just a little overhyped

[zyonsdream]

Bottom line is, there is a world-wide ban on harvesting BRW (and many other species) and buying it (even on EBay is illegal if it isn’t certified lumber.

My local wood craft had a block of it and I asked to see the certification and they couldn’t supply me a copy of it. Shame on them!

I for one love using exotic woods but I also understand the need for rain forest preservation. Unless it’s domestic I do my part in making sure the wood I buy is allowed to be sold.

I also agree on the fact that most BRW isn’t up to par with the stuff that was out there 10 years ago. I’ll take a nice piece of Bolivian Rosewood any day!

[fryovanni]

Bottom line is, there is a world-wide ban on harvesting BRW (and many other species) and buying it (even on EBay is illegal if it isn’t certified lumber.

My local wood craft had a block of it and I asked to see the certification and they couldn’t supply me a copy of it. Shame on them!

I for one love using exotic woods but I also understand the need for rain forest preservation. Unless it’s domestic I do my part in making sure the wood I buy is allowed to be sold.

I also agree on the fact that most BRW isn’t up to par with the stuff that was out there 10 years ago. I’ll take a nice piece of Bolivian Rosewood any day!

I agree Bolivian RW (Pau Ferro) is a wonderful wood. I think many people look at the price and figure it is not a top notch wood, but it is in fact an outstanding instrument wood. Honduran RW is another one that is overlooked by many for some reason, and the only reason I can figure is it it is just not expensive enough. Maybe if they sold for $200 bd. ft. they would be legendary.

Peace,Rich

[Mattia]

Not quite...you don't need CITES certification to sell Brazilian rosewood within national boundaries. Fact of the matter is, almost all the legal stuff out there has no paperwork, because it's pre-ban, and people didn't get documentation back when it was first listed/regulated by CITES. And getting the paperwork is both difficult and expensive. So the stuff your local woodcraft has may very well be perfectly legit, just like the stuff I have is 99% certainly legit (old, old stuff, bought in bulk by the wood place from some furniture maker when he went out of business, and they're very firm on not selling any more once that's gone)

[orgmorg]

I have a narrow plank of it, about 2bf or so, that turned up at a Habitat for Humanity store. My friend was there looking for tile, and found it labelled "walnut" and bought it for me for $7. He even questioned them about it but they were certain it was walnut. Saving that for something special.

[fryovanni]

I often wonder how many bits of "Brazillian" rosewood that are floating around, are actually older bits of EIR. Some of the old growth EIR could easily be passed off as BRW. With the loose documentation, limited availble, technically no new material entering the system to speak of, and the acceptance of poor quality cuts. I would bet more than a handful have paid a healthy chunk of cash for other rosewoods lable "old stock BRW".

I would really consider the viability of anyone offering to sell old stock. Does it make sense that this outfit would have had that stock just collecting dust. In some cases it makes perfect sense for a higher end custom furnature company to have a small stash, however an ebayer who bought it at a garage sale from a hobbiest furnature maker who had bought it at an estate sale from a carpenter who found it on a jobsite (hard to say). I could even see honest mistakes, such as a person finds a hunk of rosewood at a garage sale, they ask a person they know that builds houses what kind of wood it is, they are told it looks like Brazilian Rosewood to me, from there on out Brazilian it is. My recommendation to anyone that can't tell the difference between these two woods if they were right in front of you. Just don't buy it (and I am speaking to the crazy market prices we see on "BRW"), you wouldn't know the difference anyway.

Peace,Rich

[zyonsdream]

Not quite...you don't need CITES certification to sell Brazilian rosewood within national boundaries. Fact of the matter is, almost all the legal stuff out there has no paperwork, because it's pre-ban, and people didn't get documentation back when it was first listed/regulated by CITES. And getting the paperwork is both difficult and expensive. So the stuff your local woodcraft has may very well be perfectly legit, just like the stuff I have is 99% certainly legit (old, old stuff, bought in bulk by the wood place from some furniture maker when he went out of business, and they're very firm on not selling any more once that's gone)

Old stuff might not have to be certified but there is no way to validate the authenticity of when the tree was harvested and put on the market. I highly doubt that Woodcraft keeps a large stock pile of wood lying around for 10+ years. The manager was understanding and didn’t even try to offer up an excuse. He just said, “such is life” which told me he didn’t care much about the issue.

For me the bottom line is wood X now requires certification to be sold legally and there is very little chance I’ll be able to verify it on old stock so I generally stay away from it. I am a moderate tree hugger (when it comes to the rain forest) so I do my part.

If someone asks me to find them a piece of BRW, I’ll do my best to find some that has a cert but if I can’t find it I offer a substitute and try to sell them on it. It usually isn’t hard since most BRW showing up looks like garbage anyway.

I don’t see how it would be so expensive to get certified wood if they are buying from certified harvesters.

[Mattia]

...because they're not buying from harvesters! There are no certified harvesters. The stuff that's around is either harvested stumpwood (wouldn't buy that), or old-growth stuff that's been lying around in various warehouses, garages, mills, etc. Still a reasonable amount of it out there. The vast majority of brazilian rosewood in the US falls into this category, I'll wager, and even if there's reasonable proof that it's old growth (say, boles with dates stamped on them), getting the paperwork is still a major hassle, and not required for sales within the country. I don't think the Woodcraft guy was indifferent to the issue so much as accepting of the fact the paperwork is near impossible to sort. They probably got it by buying some estate stock/etc., and haven't had it lying in a warehouse for decades, like most wood sellers.

Ergo, people don't bother with the several hundred dollars worth of fees and time (if you're going to say time is money) required to get any bit of paperwork done. Hell, I tried to with the pieces I got, and the guys I bought it from said they might, somewhere, have a proof of purchase from the carpenter they got it from all those years back, but a call to the local people who do CITES paperwork rid me of any illusions about being able to get the paperwork sorted in any reasonable sort of manner. It requires certificaiton to be exported, not sold, which is a crucial distinction, in my book.

What I have done, though, is save every single invoice for every wood purchase I've made, particularly for honduran mahogany (glad I did, too...), because it's only going to get worse. And with this sort of paper trail, I can at least prove the wood was purchased at a certain time. How I'm supposed to prove the wood on my invoice is the wood I've got is something I'm not entirely clear on. At least, not once I cut it into manageable sized pieces.

All that being said, there are folks selling BRW, certified and all, but mostly, I think it's vastly overpriced, and that there are plenty of great alternatives out there.

[zyonsdream]

All that being said, there are folks selling BRW, certified and all, but mostly, I think it's vastly overpriced, and that there are plenty of great alternatives out there.

There is no sense in arguing over two fundamentally different perspectives on what is right and wrong. You are correct that it requires certification to export the lumber and there is no requirement to be certified to buy (in the U.S.) but in the end, if you are buying uncertified lumber you are supporting those who will illegally export it.

It’s more of a will I or won’t I be a willing participant in the process.

It’s good that you keep a paper trail because it is going to get tougher to purchase and validate non-domestic hardwoods. We should also just stick to black walnut! LOL

I will agree that there are much better alternatives out there and the BRW prices are just stupid high.

[Mr.Majestic]

I have a friend I do some purchasing through who is a CITES certified harvester and exporter. He is also classified as a "GOOD WOOD COMPANY", that means for every tree harvested they replant eight. This man has spent millions of dollars to obtain such a high rating and he told me some of the loop holes that others use to go around the restrictions. You see raw wood, or unfinished wood falls under most of these restrictions, so to bypass this they will take and shape a "tongue and groove" into the wood to classify it as flooring. I'm talking about up to 12/4" thick! They will also ship large machinery and use wood to "stabilize" it inside the containers. Mislabling and many, many others. He does not participate in these practices and I do not purchase from them either. I think we really need to protect our older forests. I do however think that the CITES restrictions on Mahogany and Rosewood is rooted more in profit than in protection. The harvesting of wood in most of these countries has slowed very little, but the price has skyrocketed. The profits of most of this wood is now staying within the countries of origin and most of these are considered 3rd world with huge poverty rates. I don't mind paying extra for certified lumber, especially when the money is being used responsibly, but it bothers me that harvesting has not slowed and the world is getting fed this lie about protecting our forests.

cn

[zyonsdream]

Well said Mr. majestic.

There are plenty of places to get great lumber that’s really old. The lumber being pulled from the Alaskan Rivers is an excellent example. You’ll pay premium prices for it but it’s really really old and is worth every penny they ask. Obviously all forests need to be managed for a healthy ecosystem so cutting down trees is not bad but at the rate the rain forest is being cut down we have to do our part to avoid supporting it.

It’s hard when you see a piece of lumber that you really want to say, ‘I’ll pass” but at times you have to do what your conscious thinks is the right thing to do.