Myka Guitars Posted January 16, 2008 Report Share Posted January 16, 2008 Rich, my mind has been on acoustics lately and I got to thinking about lattice bracing and remembered this project of yours. Very cool to see it coming together so well. The bracing looks very interesting. As you know I have been working with asymmetrical systems but I have also used the double-X. I suppose lattice is the next step in that evolution? I imagine your unique bridge design working very well with this. So my question is how much of a rotational affect does your bridge have on the top? Is there still an upward pull from behind the saddle? Or is the tension distributed very differently? I am very curious to see one of these in person some day (maybe you'll come to our studio opening Sat, Feb 9th?). ~David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryovanni Posted January 17, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2008 Rich, my mind has been on acoustics lately and I got to thinking about lattice bracing and remembered this project of yours. Very cool to see it coming together so well. The bracing looks very interesting. As you know I have been working with asymmetrical systems but I have also used the double-X. I suppose lattice is the next step in that evolution? I imagine your unique bridge design working very well with this. So my question is how much of a rotational affect does your bridge have on the top? Is there still an upward pull from behind the saddle? Or is the tension distributed very differently? I am very curious to see one of these in person some day (maybe you'll come to our studio opening Sat, Feb 9th?). ~David The last one I did was a double X, and yep this is kinda the next step in the evolution in my head. Of course the strung up guitar will tell the story. As far as the bridge. The bridge does not eliminate rotational forces completely, but by adjusting the break angle to the tailpiece it acts to neutralize the static rotational forces. One interesting test I am able to put to the bridge is to simply stop the strings at the bridge as a normal wrap around and compair it to when the strings are anchored at the tailpiece. This eliminates the effect. There is a difference in the sound, and also you can see a difference in the shape of the soundboard. Of course the comparison was done with 13's, as I have tried to place a heavy load on the bridge to see if it was going to fail. I don't believe what would work well for pinned works best for my bridge. A pinned bridge will place more static rotational force (pre-load in one direction) and bracing needs to counter that to hold the soundboard closer to true. I suspect the board will oscillate around that pre-torqued position. Mine will still be pre-torqued, but not as much, so it will vibrate around a position closer to neutral. I am still trying to figure out if that is good or bad. One thing I believe is happening is that the mids are effected. A top that is pre-torqued more is somewhat stiffer in the belly(my thinking) and I think this is good for nice sounding mids. I am trying to adjust or give myself a bit better control over the mids with bracing (the lattice). If I am able to get the control, then I think I am on track. Which will allow me to use lighter bracing and tops to push the performance up. If not then the pinned bridges pre-torqing has a possitive effect on the mids that needs to be present, and I will probably switch back to pinned. We will see. I am not sure if I am going to be able to get out of town. Work has got me hog tied right now. GW, I will make MPS's if I get around to it(of course I have to finish it first). Peace,Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
verhoevenc Posted January 17, 2008 Report Share Posted January 17, 2008 (edited) So, where do I put in orders for my Rich Fry custom? FWIW I too enjoy ziricote cough cough hahahaha Chris Edited January 17, 2008 by verhoevenc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryovanni Posted January 17, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2008 So, where do I put in orders for my Rich Fry custom? FWIW I too enjoy ziricote cough cough hahahaha Chris Actually, you can place your order through David. Just let me know where you want me to sign it, as soon as David builds it he will send it to me for a my signature, and I will send it straight away to you. My prices are only about $1500 over what David would charge for the same instrument (a bargain ). Bulk discounts apply if you order by the dozen. So how many can I put you down for my friend? You gotta love the look of Zircote. It would be awsome if it didn't have that crack addiction. Peace,Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToneMonkey Posted January 17, 2008 Report Share Posted January 17, 2008 I really wish this bloody server would let me look at pics. COuld someone please post one directly into the body of the text, I can see one then. Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orgmorg Posted January 18, 2008 Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 This is my favorite: Beautiful work, Rich! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim_ado Posted January 18, 2008 Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 it probably isnt finished yet but i reckon the sounds hole needs to be beveled or something Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryovanni Posted January 18, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 it probably isnt finished yet but i reckon the sounds hole needs to be beveled or something Tim, Not sure I follow. Are you thinking I need to clean up the edge of the soundhole, or add a specific bevel to modify air movement in some way? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoodWood Posted January 18, 2008 Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 So, where do I put in orders for my Rich Fry custom? FWIW I too enjoy ziricote cough cough hahahaha Chris You gotta love the look of Zircote. It would be awsome if it didn't have that crack addiction. Peace,Rich Rich, are you using the 'martin' style cloth/glue for side braces to help stop the cracks? Do you use super soft for tight bends? Ive got some killer Zir I want to get to, it is not bookmatched, but it has really nice tap tone. Some of the stuff I got just sounds dead. But I suppose most of it sounds like that. Boingoingouingingngnnnngggggggwraaaa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryovanni Posted January 18, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 Rich, are you using the 'martin' style cloth/glue for side braces to help stop the cracks? Do you use super soft for tight bends? Ive got some killer Zir I want to get to, it is not bookmatched, but it has really nice tap tone. Some of the stuff I got just sounds dead. But I suppose most of it sounds like that. Boingoingouingingngnnnngggggggwraaaa GW, I did use bias tape and HHG for the sides(Zpoxy to seal the HHG, don't forget that), as well as my usual extra wood braces. I don't trust Zircote very much and all preventative measures were taken. I would also note that before I started using the sides I saturated them with CA(do that outside the fumes are awful) and then surfaced them (sometime hairline fractures are basically invisable, but when you apply CA you will see them appear when the CA soaks through them to the other side). I have yet to use supersoft, but it seems like a good idea and will use it in the future I am sure. If I ever do any tight bending I bet supersoft would make it go better. Peace,Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToneMonkey Posted January 18, 2008 Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 Awesome mate. Typically, I'm at the inlaws at the minute so can see the pics anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoodWood Posted January 19, 2008 Report Share Posted January 19, 2008 Yea, Im a bit worried about washing it in CA and then sanding, but I suppose ita a must do? CA is toxic when heated, it turns to cyanide-dyetholone or whatever if it gets too hot. So bending and everything should be done outside I guess??? How long does it take for the fume odor to go away???. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryovanni Posted January 19, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2008 Yea, Im a bit worried about washing it in CA and then sanding, but I suppose ita a must do? CA is toxic when heated, it turns to cyanide-dyetholone or whatever if it gets too hot. So bending and everything should be done outside I guess??? How long does it take for the fume odor to go away???. GW, The fumes from a large quantiy of CA are nasty and you have to keep that work in a well ventalated place(outside is a good idea). It only takes a minute to apply the coat, so you don't need to stick around while it cures. As far as vapors after curing, I didn't notice much. My sander has a pretty good dust collection system and it was pretty fast (never noticed anything). During bending I never noticed any thing that irritated me, of course you are not superheating CA (like putting it to a flame, or extreamly hot heat source). I don't think it reaches the temps that would break it down. Then again do it all outside or in a really well ventalated location and you should be fine. You can wait till the sides are bent, and try to spot problems. It is not as easy, but you can do what ever you prefer. Peace,Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim_ado Posted January 20, 2008 Report Share Posted January 20, 2008 it probably isnt finished yet but i reckon the sounds hole needs to be beveled or something Tim, Not sure I follow. Are you thinking I need to clean up the edge of the soundhole, or add a specific bevel to modify air movement in some way? nope just a simple round over of the edge i think will help it follow better... in a subtle way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryovanni Posted January 20, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2008 nope just a simple round over of the edge i think will help it follow better... in a subtle way Gotcha, It is in the ruff at this point, when I sand everything for finish, I round over sharp edges a bit. Peace,Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim_ado Posted January 20, 2008 Report Share Posted January 20, 2008 yeah thats what i figured the build is looking killer though good balance of imagination and practicality i'd say Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crash6882 Posted January 21, 2008 Report Share Posted January 21, 2008 Awsome build. Great inlays. I was wondering if the rosette inlay helps support the grain of the soundhole?? also how did you do the rosette inlay, did you cut all of the pieces and and then traced out the hole or was it vise versa??? Last question I swear, the Trick with the CA glue before you bend the sides, does this make it less vulnerable to splitting while bending?? and do you have to do this before you thickness sand the sides or is it okay to it after???? Sorry for all the questions, I am new to building on my own, I've had a great teacher, Carl A. Hoyt (don't know if anyone has heard of his work), but I do tend to ask Alot of questions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryovanni Posted January 21, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2008 Awsome build. Great inlays. I was wondering if the rosette inlay helps support the grain of the soundhole?? also how did you do the rosette inlay, did you cut all of the pieces and and then traced out the hole or was it vise versa??? Last question I swear, the Trick with the CA glue before you bend the sides, does this make it less vulnerable to splitting while bending?? and do you have to do this before you thickness sand the sides or is it okay to it after???? Sorry for all the questions, I am new to building on my own, I've had a great teacher, Carl A. Hoyt (don't know if anyone has heard of his work), but I do tend to ask Alot of questions. I don't know if a rosette generally helps support the grain of a soundhole, I would imagine the diversity in materials could help or hurt dimensional stability, it may offer some protection against a split migrating from or to the area. I did add a bit of spruce reinforcement behind the oddly shaped part of the sounhole on this one, and of course the most bracing systems generally reinforces the area about a soundhole. As for the inlay process. I precut the inlay (rose & figure) then put them together with CA, scribed the pattern, then routed and chiseled. The shell for the rosette is precut, then the area is routed to proper dimension, and so the round strip type shell must be placed and adjusted for a good fit (dry and in the routed channel), then assembled in place. As far as stabalizing the Zircote. To be clear, I only do that with Zircote. It from my experience is about the most split prone wood around. I try to take every precaution I can with it (possibly to the extream). I am not worried too much about the breaking during bending (it actually bends pretty good). I am most worried about hair line fractures that are present (but so small they are hard to detect if not impossible). If I can catch and stabalize those fractures(splits) before I start working with the wood, I will do better. I would point out that during the whole build process I am watching for any sign of a split, and will deal with it pronto. If I do this during the build, and then the body gets one last Z-poxy grain fill (with a fairly thin cut which can catch anything I did not see), then it should hold together as well as rosewoods (which should be watched pretty close during building also). My recommendation would be to avoid Zircote until you are comfortable with your methods, as it will add a degree of difficulty (or painfulness) to your project if you are not watching it very close. Beautiful wood though, and has very nice musical properties. Peace, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crash6882 Posted January 21, 2008 Report Share Posted January 21, 2008 Thanks Rich for the info. I only ask about the CA because I am using Black Acacia (Australian Blackwood) for the first time. My mentor has also never used it so I am a little worried about it cracking, and since I only have one shot I want to take all precautions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryovanni Posted January 21, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2008 Thanks Rich for the info. I only ask about the CA because I am using Black Acacia (Australian Blackwood) for the first time. My mentor has also never used it so I am a little worried about it cracking, and since I only have one shot I want to take all precautions. I think your concern with the Blackwood is not so much splitting (so the CA I used would do you no good). You are worried about cracking during bending, and the only things I would suggest are; If you are using a side form- Be sure you have a good solid foundation for the slats. Use slats that are reasonably flexable. Use craft paper to help contain the moisture and control staining. Lightly seal the slats to keep the steam contained well. Don't bend too thick(under heating and bending too tick are reasons #1 & #2 for cracking sides). Make sure you get the temperature up and the wood becomes flexable before you start bending. Use the most even, reliable heat source you can (double heat blankets are very nice for getting the wood up to temp evenly). If you are using pipe- Take your time, keep the wood moist, support the wood well while bending, be sure you evenly heat the area you are bending, take your time. You can get good info on bending from John Hall at Blues Creek. He has temperature ranges for different woods, and is a very helpful and experienced fella. Probably one of the most valuable resources out there, both for tools, materials and information. (good vender to support ) Peace,Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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