Making "new" Guitar

[ToddW]

I had the Clapton boost kit in my strat plus and took it out. Didn't love it. Like the Lace sensors as they are.

Diggidy is going to change the pick guard, so I actually like the HSS setup for what he's asking. I'm partial to Lace sensors because I hate hum, but a fairly low impedance (not resistance) SC at the neck, a slightly warmer one in the middle position, and a HB at the bridge is pretty darned versatile.

Wire it up with a superswitch and your pretty versatile.

That said, Diggidy, I'd do this stepwise. Get an HSS style pick guard, a push/pull pot for wired as a series/parallel switch (that way you're hum cancelling in both positions unlike a coil tap which is a compromise sound to me). Use two of your current SC's plus whatever HB you like in the bridge position when you go to the guitar center and play a bunch of guitars

After you do that, see what sound you still want to improve or change and change one of the other 2 PUPS.

From curiosity, are you playing at home, in a band, both . . . Amps make a huge difference, and my current home practice favorite is a 3W PP I built myself. Did I miss seeing where you play and at what volume?

Regards,

Todd

[diggidy]

dude that's so cool, you're member number 9999. haha

anyway I gotta go to my guitar lesson right now, so i'll post when I get back

[ToddW]

I've always liked it too, but it would have been cooler to have been member 666

[diggidy]

Ok, so you think it would be better if I got a hum in the bridge (because i'm getting a new pickguard anyway). Do you think I should get 2 texas special in middle and neck or what? Any recommendations for the humbucker. I won't have much time tomorrow, but i'm going to try and reread for of melvin hiscocks book so I can understand electronics and things.

Could you send me some wiring scematics you think I should use, and what types of things I should do for combinging them (coil splitting, parallel, 7-switch). I don't know much about electronics stuff, so I hope you can point me in the right direction so I get it right, and also learn something along the way.

thanks a lot.

[SwedishLuthier]

Here, almost every schematic you can think of:

http://www.seymourduncan.com/support/wiring-diagrams/

And yes I think that with your sound ideals you need a bucker in the bridge. And some strat pups to match it. A really nice humbucker that I like (personal opinion warning) is the Pearly gates. It is a slightly warmer/hotter PAF type pickup. It comes with a four conductor cable so you can do the series/parallel thing. It is hot enough to do the Jimmy Page sound, roll off a tiny bit on the volume and you will have Angus right there and turn the gain up a bit and you will be able to do the Slash parts. Dunno bout Zakk though…And in parallel I’m pretty sure (haven’t tried it in parallel) that it will produce a nice sound. One trick is to turn the pickup 180 degrees. Have the slug (non adjustable) coil closer to the bridge. Few people have any idea of how much that will do for the sound, especially if you are mimicking a SC sound by switching or coil-cutting. The slug coils have much higher magnetic flux and thus will give a treble boost. Place that closer to the bridge and you will have more bite from the pickup. If you do not like it turn it back. I discovered that by mistake when I made a coilcut for a strat with a Duncan Jazz model in the bridge. Accidentally I cut out the screw coil using the slug coil instead. That had one of the best SC sounds from a HB I’ve ever heard. I have even designed a pickup around that concept called The Combo that IMHO produces a really good SC sound combined with a PAF tone in Humbucker mode. Unfortunately the SC mode suffers from what all SCs suffer from…HUM (OK ‘nuff pushing of your own products. Get back on topic!)

Does Duncan still have that “Swap pickup until you are satisfied” warranty they had in the 80s? If so that is a perfect way of testing out pickups.

I have no personal experience of mixing a Pearly with Texas Specials. One thing to look out for in a HSS setup is the balance in volume between the HB and the SCs. But if you switch to Parallel for that sweet 2nd position on the 5-way switch you will probably be fine with a Pearly Gates. An other really nice option is the JB model from Duncan. It has a bit more Oumph so you need to back off a bit more for the AC/DC stuff, or even use the clean channel if it is a hot amp. Listen to both of them here:

http://www.seymourduncan.com/support/audio...humbuckers_and/

Beware that IMO they use way too much distortion to really tell how the pickups sound in “dirty” mode. Too much amp compression and everything sound more or less the same.

[psw]

Another variation on the coil splitting thing is to rig up a tone control or R/C to one coil of a humbucker. DBG Studio call it a "special tone", in one variation it works as a normal tone from 0-8 and above that rolls off the highs on one coil only. The result is similar to single coil split in that one coil is running on full treble, but it is supported by the bass of the other coil effected by the tone control giving it more body and remaining humbucking.

I haven't tried it yet but am planning to on my new project. It sounds promising and may be consideration for pickup designers who could use this effect to get a more decent "split" sound by design perhaps.

Some pickups "split" better than others...the Seymour Duncan JB is renown for this and a pickup I like generally and is a bit of a standard.

I agree that the demo sounds of most of these pickups tend to be processed or distorted and a lot of it amp/effect/guitar/player dependent and so at best a guide...at best!

Such things are very much personal taste...and you won't know till you have tried a few what works for you.

Similarly, a lot of people expect a lot from custom wiring and switching. You should really have a goal in mind and hope for the best. Mostly, splitting an HB and other things of that nature are trying to get a device to work in ways they aren't designed to perform for. Splitting an HB does not get you a "fender" sound for instance cutting out half the windings but leaving an opposite polarity magnet right next to it has never been suggested as something you would seek to do for better tone and performance.

There are times where you can get an addition special sound out of a guitar. My new tele is a case in point. It has a hidden push pull function on the volume control that reverses the phase of the neck pickup. Careful adjusting of the relative pickup heights crafts a fantastic quacky funky sound, but not as thin and nasally as one often associates with phase switching.

I had a guitar that I used to test a lot of wiring ideas including the strat the would eventually become the original "sustainer strat". On this guitar I put a phase switch on each of the three pickups. Combinations of positions 2 and 4 with one of the pickups out of phase with the other produced the opposite of the old dire straits hollowed strat quack sound...giving a really nice full bodied midrange tone.

Even so, a guitar with just one superb sound, or a simple 3 way of different sounds is a joy to play and puts the focus back onto the player to coax the sounds out of it. Perhaps my next guitar will be an esquire or something!

pete

[ToddW]

http://www.guitarnuts.com/wiring/serpar.php

http://www.guitarnuts.com/wiring/sw3.php

Diggidy,

We can't pick a pick up for you Sorry, couldn't resist. But there are too many variables, your ear being one of them, your attack, your amp, the cycle of the moon . . .

Happily, there's also a lot of amount of overlap among the different humbuckers, despite what the marketing people want you to believe, so if you pick a decent HB in the "tonal area" your looking for, you'll do OK. Play a bunch of guitars with bridge position HBs, and see what you like. I'd try to do that with an amp comparable to what you'll be using, because the amps gain and sensitivity will matter. I can overdrive the little 1/2W tube amp I built for my daughter with my Gold Lace Sensors at 4 and the amp gain at 4 or 5, so the PUP and the amp both matter here.

I still strongly suggest you keep two of you SCs and just buy the HB. You haven't hated those SCs, so live with them a bit longer. Wire the HB up with a Series / Parallel switch, and see what you think. You may find that the HB plus the parallel wired HB in series with a SC, or some other combination gives you all the tones you want right now. And if it doesn't, you'll know what tones you still want and can choose your middle or neck pup to get them.

Does that make sense?

Todd

[diggidy]

I think I found the "right" one. What do you guys think about the Dimarzio Air Zone.

he best way to describe the Air Zone™ is to say it’s a vintage version of The Tone Zone®. It's got the same low string-pull as our other Airbuckers™ for singing sustain, plus it has the big bass response and cool harmonics of The Tone Zone®, with extra sensitivity and control. It's a great match for very hot amps, allowing the player to take full advantage of massive preamp gain without turning the sound to mud or fuzzy noise. It’s also a great neck pickup for jazz players who need to get the hollow-body archtop sound from a solid body, and it offers exceptionally good split and series-parallel capability.

Recommended For: Bridge position primarily (see Tech Talk for neck position application) in solid body and semihollow body guitars.

Tech Talk: Ultra-fat PAF® sound with more output. The dynamic range from soft to hard picking is very wide, and the combination of dual-resonance coils with the Airbucker magnetic field allows sustained notes to hang on to harmonic overtones longer, instead of becoming muddy as they fade. Will also work as a very warm, full neck pickup for jazz sound, and combine with Tone Zone®, Super Distortion® and Super 3™ in bridge position.

it says it works good with those, but will it work good with other strat pickups also?

It talks a lot about high gain amps and stuff, but will it be able to pull of a great blues/classic rock sound? Is this a little bit too "heavy metal" for me?

output is 323 and DC resistance is 17.49. can you explain what that means, and how it would work with the other 2 pickups I'm keeping for now.

Oh yeah, where do you think I should buy a HSS pickguard. I dont want to spend a ton of money on just the pickguard. and the pickup is 70$

thanks

[ToddW]

If you plan to buy without playing the PUP through your amp, then :

I think its a moderately hot pickup compared to most blues and classic rock stuff, and the resistance is pretty high to put in line with a SC. When I went to Dimarzio's site I thought the Mo'jo looked like a better PUP for A HSS guitar because of it's lower resistance.

From curiosity, I went to Harmony Central, (home to some of the worst advice in the world since to many people love what they spent their money on . . . ), but the first reviewer of the Mo'jo uses it in a strat, and his comments were in line with what I would have guessed. Seems like a neat PUP for your purposes.

Best,

Todd

[diggidy]

Why does the resistance matter? I'm just looking for ideas that I can go try out, but if I can't really find any of them to try out I may have to settle for internet reviews. Is there any other humbuckers you would recommend for a HSS strat that is used for blues and classic rock stuff?

[diggidy]

sounds pretty good right? Sounds a little bit heavy, but it would probably be better on a cleaner channel? I think that is the way im going to go, unless there is anything wrong with that setup?

[SwedishLuthier]

Why does the resistance matter?

It doesn’t. People keep on confusing DC resistance with output and it is simply not true. It would be true if all pickups were wound with the same gauge of wire, but they aren’t. What matters is turns count, but manufactures doesn’t want to share that information so the list the DC resistance as they can’t hide that info. Anyone with a decent multi-meter can measure it. A “normal” HB will have a DC resistance in the range of 7 kohms. Higher output HBs, still wound with the standard AWG42 wire, will com up to maybe 9-10 kohms depending on if it is a hand wound or machine wound. Higher resistance than that means thinner wire. So in that isolated view (only one size of wire) resistance counts (higher resistance-more wire-higher output), but you will never know what wire the pickup is wound with so it really doesn’t matter. Use your ears instead. And that why I would never ever judge a pickups sound from a youtube clip. Those clips are so compressed and reduced in quality that it is impossible to pass a judgment of the quality. And then they very seldom tell you what amp, speaker, microphone (not pickup), preamp, recording media etc they use. All of that will affect the sound. Not to mention what the recording room will do. The only right thing to do is to find a good music store were they have guitars equipped with the pickups you are contemplating buying and test drive them there.

[ToddW]

+1 on what Peter said.

Resistance doesn't matter much by itself, impedance does, some, your ears do the most.

To add to the confusion, turns count is important, like Peter said, but so so are the magnets. It looks like the airtone airzone air whatnots are using weaker magnets, after all, they're claiming less string pull . . . so given more resistance, I assumed they're making up for it with wire turns. Might be they changed the field shape, but who knows.

I wasn't being too scientific, I figured you're planning to match the HB to two fairly low impedance SCs. Right? I also figured the HB with the lower inductance would probably have a higher resonance frequency. It's not as simple as I'm making it, but we don't know a lot of the variables, so I'm guessing. I know mixing the middle SC sounds good with the bridge SC, so I figure you want a HB tone, but you also want it to sound good with your middle SC . . . so maybe avoiding a HB with a very high inductance would be safer.

Like Peter says, the only right way to do this is to try to listen. I said that a few times above. But since it seems like you don't have that option, I'm trying to guess. Maybe Peter will comment on my guesswork. I think I saw in another thread that he rolls (winds) his own.

Best,

Todd

[SwedishLuthier]

Jupp, I’ve been winding pickups, mostly for own use but also for customers) for a few years now. Todd is 100% when saying that magnet strength is also a very important factor. It is one of four main things to play around with, turn count, magnet strength, shape of coil and magnetic field and last the type of wire. There are a bunch of other factors but those are the most important to watch IMHO.

The DiMarzio “air”-pickups are a bit special in design. Normally the magnet is in contact with the screws and the slugs. In the Air pickups they use a plastic keeper/holder that fixates the magnet so that there is a tine distance between the magnet and the slugs and screws. Hence the name Air. Why do they do this? I *think* it is because this is actually simplet to manufacture as they can use full strength charged magnets but tame the power a bit by this air gap. The alternative would be to use a slightly de-gaussed magnet to cut back the magnetic strength. But that’s only me guessing.

[ToddW]

So the air pickups do have a lower field strength, but don't use weaker magnets. That is clever. . . and efficient from a supply line point of view.

You know, if you could weaken the magnets enough by wacking on them, DiMarzio could throw some in a rock tumbler for a while, and then sell "rocked" pickups.

[psw]

Those clips are so compressed and reduced in quality that it is impossible to pass a judgment of the quality.

Oh good...then it is not just me who finds they all sound much the same!

To me, the difference in the sound of different HB's is slight, there is a difference, but not so much that it comes across on YouTube or often even on a recordings half the time...they all have very similar general characteristics. HB's seem rarely to be heard clean and it is notable that most players who do play clean tend to favour single coils as they tend to have a little more character and detail. Maybe in person there is a difference.

My squier strat came with a "duncan designed" pickup that they said was based on the JB specs. I replaced it with a real one and there is a little difference, but not so much that you don't get essentially the same sound out of it. The build quality was pretty much on a par. I confess to a little mojo attraction of having something that the artist actually uses (though in JB's case, hardly ever) and to get a zebra coil look. Also, I spent over $200 on the neck and middle single coils so I wanted something on a par...

But...in reality, very little difference and it won't add the years to your playing required to get a great sound out of any guitar. Remember the greats that set the standards used standard guitars and weren't confronted by over-choice and anything like as much "mojo"...if anything, they created the mojo!

Now it is simply a consumerist thing (like the nike "air" cross marketing angle) and what is being sold is not anything miraculous but the warm glow in knowing that you bought "the ultimate" or "best" or something. There is no "ultimate pickup". any coil of wire and magnet has the potential to make sound, all the best players will be able to make this sound pretty good if not great.

Still..sometimes you want a little glow in your life... ...pete

[diggidy]

Ok, so between pearly gates and alcino 2, what one would you guess would give me a better blues and classic rock tone. I think i'm leaning towards the pearly gates, and possibly adding some texas specials in the middle and neck.

also, http://www.wdmusic.com/fender_strat_reg_q_ssh_27676_prd1.htm ,

will that pickguard work for my guitar. It is a Mexican made strat, and the description only says it fits American strats and vintage strats. If any of you have bought a pick guard for a Mexican strat the you turned into a HSS, could you lead me to where you bought yours.

for this schematic, http://www.seymourduncan.com/support/wirin..._2s_1v_2t_5w_pp , what is the push pull for. Is it to switch between split and parralell (I think thats what it would be) What config for the pickups would you recommend for my setup? Thanks you've all been a big help.

[digi2t]

OK, here goes.... GFS "Lil Killer". I've got a 10K in the middle of my RG. Sounds great and it's splittable to boot. Personally, I was impressed enough to buy a set of "Dream 180"'s. Then they impressed me enough to buy a set of "Crunchy PAF"'s. So far so good. For about 160$ I outfitted 3 guitars with very decent (to my ears) sounding pickups. If you don't want to break the bank, try them. Besides, with the "Killer"'s, you won't have to route your Strat or mod the pickgaurd. And with some creative wiring, judicious choice of cap(s), and splitting, you cover a whole HECK of a lot of territory. At worst, you can experiment... without having to remorgage your home. Here's the link;

GFS pickups

That's my 2 bits. Good luck and as always...

Cheers.

[psw]

Here is a LINK to a set of three sincle coil sized rail humbucking pickups for $59.95. Perhaps a little filing required of the pick guard to get them in, but a lot easier!

Seymour duncan make a JB jr in a similar format and other models if you want to go up market. This gives you the HB sound is a strat sized package and saving you a lot of work. Of just buy one for the bridge position and mix with your single coils if you like...

I personally don't like the rail sound so much, but then I'd stick with the single coils...probably the ones you already have. I do notice though that GF have sets of new stacked single coil designs that sound similar in design to the newer fender SCn's which might be another option for a lot less than the real thing and no noise.

It is all a bit silly really trying to suggest pickups for you or anyone really.

The only thing I can gather is that you think you want an HB pickup. However, I am not sure that what you have said really supports that, at least two clips like the eric clapton strat are single coil pickups. Regardless of design, an HB pickup will give you a more midrange sound and often a bit more power. It will loose the detail and tone of a single coil, but a lot of people don't want that messing with their distortion. Distortion often hides the true qualities of a pickup and every clip I have seen on this thread is compressed and distorted. If this is the sound you are after, then a good distortion effect is going to be more rewarding than any pickup change is going to do.

The kind of pickup is going to be very much affected by the amp (which you are in the process of changing also), the type of sound you are really after and very much in the way you play. A heavy hitter is obviously going to be putting out a lot more voltage from any pickup than someone who plays with a light touch or varies their attack like a SRV.

What I want to get out of guitar is going to be different to others. I look for a great clean tone and maybe a little hotter than standard but not too much as it will have a poor clean sound. Otherwise, quality of construction. These days I also like there to be no noise. I really like a guitar that is completely silent till I want to make it speak. I also like combinations of pickups and often the interesting combinations come from mixing unlike pickups.

But really, it is each to their own...and everybody in the end has to make up their own minds, try things, make mistakes and change as their playing evolves. Somewhere down the track I predict you are going to want that strat back as a strat and honestly, with an LP in the works, I'd be putting my HB desires into that and leave the strat to do what it does best...

pete

[SwedishLuthier]

You know, if you could weaken the magnets enough by wacking on them, DiMarzio could throw some in a rock tumbler for a while, and then sell "rocked" pickups.

LOL…and they would probably patent the process in the same manner as they patented zebra HBs

Ok, so between pearly gates and alcino 2, what one would you guess would give me a better blues and classic rock tone. I think i'm leaning towards the pearly gates, and possibly adding some texas specials in the middle and neck.

Well, I’m very happy with the Pearly Gates so I’m a bit biased, but I think that it is a very good combo.

will that pickguard work for my guitar. It is a Mexican made strat, and the description only says it fits American strats and vintage strats. If any of you have bought a pick guard for a Mexican strat the you turned into a HSS, could you lead me to where you bought yours.

If your guitar has 11 screws it is highly possibly that it will fit. Funny…I thought that vintage Strats had like 9 screws, but they say this 11 screw pickguard should fit, hmmmm…

for this schematic, http://www.seymourduncan.com/support/wirin..._2s_1v_2t_5w_pp , what is the push pull for. Is it to switch between split and parralell (I think thats what it would be).

In that schematic the switch is coil cutting. You will have to combine this:

http://www.seymourduncan.com/support/wirin...g_1vol_1tone_5w

and this:

http://www.seymourduncan.com/support/wirin...ematic=1h_1v_sp

Couldn’t find one that covers it all, sorry

[ToddW]

Is a strat control cavity deep enough for a push/pull pot in the lead tone control position? If it is, why not just wire it up like a normal strat, but instead of the bridge pickup leads going to the 5-way switch, the two leads off the push/pull switch would take their place?

Or, there's this: http://www.guitar-mod.com/rg_dialatap_11.html which looks interesting.

Todd

[diggidy]

that's really interesting. When a humbucker is split, does either side sound different from one another? Like on the diagram for the humbucker, does red vs. blue sound any different.

If I have this correct, the dial-a-tap shorts out the blue part of the humbucker, and you can have different levels of the coil splitting? or something like that

[SwedishLuthier]

This thread is starting to go a bit in circles.

why not just wire it up like a normal strat, but instead of the bridge pickup leads going to the 5-way switch, the two leads off the push/pull switch would take their place?

That’s what I suggested here and

When a humbucker is split, does either side sound different from one another?

was covered here

Diggidy; Can’t really see that we can help you any further as we have suggested the schematics and we have discussed the basic configurations you can use. It's perfectly fine to ask a lot of questions, but I think it is now up to you to make the decision.

[diggidy]

ok, I was just making sure about everything.

I think i'm going to buy the pearly gates humbucker, and this wiring kit so I am able to do this .

I'll probably stay with the 250k pots, since that's what is already in my guitar, and there isn't really any advantage to getting anything different. Do you think I should upgrade the capacitor or just leave the one they come with.

Sorry for asking so many questions, and if i'm asking the same thing multiple times. I'm just trying to understand this electronics stuff.

Is your suggestion for combining those 2 scematics the same as the one Todd suggesed but just the push-pull on the tone instead of volume?

Also, Todd said that a Push/Pull may be too big to fit, is there anyway I can see if it would before ordering it? Thanks again

If I don't really like how the sound from the single coils I will think about getting something different for those.

[ToddW]

That kit's a waste of your money. You already have most of the parts on your strat now

All you need is a $8 pot with a Push-Pull DPDT switch on it. Caps are under a buck at your local radio shack.

Other than that all you need is a soldering iron and a schematic. However, before you try that schematic, go over to the board at guitarnuts2. ChrisK or Sumgai will be able to evaluate it, and someone else may even have experience with it.

Have fun!

Todd

http://guitarnuts2.proboards45.com/index.cgi

Edited August 13, 2008 by ToddW