Robert Mac Millan Posted March 18, 2010 Report Share Posted March 18, 2010 Question, yesterday while doing some internet research I came across an acoustic guitar where the luthier had used plain wood for the back & sides and then laminated high figured veneer on top. Why is it more luthiers do not use this method.? as to me this looks like a good way of using a limited resource. Regards,Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDub Posted March 18, 2010 Report Share Posted March 18, 2010 With acoustics, it's all about the sound... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
verhoevenc Posted March 18, 2010 Report Share Posted March 18, 2010 That and it's more difficult. Bending uses water which usually warps the wood at least a LITTLE bit... which you have to level out before you can accurately route the binding channel. It's usually only .010" or so... but it's still there. Have you ever veneered anything? The water introduced by the glue (especially if you only veneer ONE side) will exacerbate this issue. Veneer is only .023" thick... let's say that the veneer warps it a little more than normal to say... .015"-.02" needing to be flattened. You're left with NOTHING almost. That said, you could use epoxy so no moisture is introduced. But this presents it's own messy issues which I don't really feel like taking the time to explain out... but they exist. Go read that Bogdanovich classical guitar book... he does this but with pretty thick "veneer." Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodenspoke Posted March 18, 2010 Report Share Posted March 18, 2010 I would also add because its cheaping out. manufacturers use this all the time on $200 acoustics not hand made instruments.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B. Aaron Posted March 18, 2010 Report Share Posted March 18, 2010 Go read that Bogdanovich classical guitar book... he does this but with pretty thick "veneer." Chris That's not quite the object of what Bogdanovich is doing though. He doesn't just use a cheap core with a fancy veneer on the outside. Rather, he's making thicker composite sides of rosewood (~1.6mm thick) and sitka spruce (~1.2mm thick) to produce something stiffer and more stable than solid rosewood alone. Once you do the math it works out to being about 2x as stiff as plain rosewood sides would be. Bogdanovich isn't the only luthier who does this. The Ramirez 1a (perhaps the classical guitar by which all others have been judged since the '60s) has rosewood sides lined with cypress (even the old Brazilian rosewood ones!), and Daniel Friederich makes his sides from two 2mm pieces of East Indian rosewood - that's right, he has 4mm thick laminated sides, which produces sides 8x as stiff as usual! There is a method to the madness sometimes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
verhoevenc Posted March 18, 2010 Report Share Posted March 18, 2010 I wasn't saying he does it for those reasons. I'm just saying his book shows how it can be done. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B. Aaron Posted March 18, 2010 Report Share Posted March 18, 2010 I wasn't saying he does it for those reasons. I'm just saying his book shows how it can be done. Chris Fair enough! The math behind it goes like this: cube the change in thickness to find the change in stiffness. For example, if you double the thickness of something (2x2x2), it will be 8 time stiffer. If you increase the thickness by even a mere 25% (1.25x1.25x1.25), it will be 1.95x stiffer. Adding a little bit of thickness to instrument sides with a light stiff wood (such as spruce) adds a lot of stiffness to the final product without adding much mass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
verhoevenc Posted March 19, 2010 Report Share Posted March 19, 2010 Yup. Simple physics that are hilariously just making it to lutherie hahahaha. Ervin's stuff deals with that a lot as well. HOWEVER, if you're interested in the actual physics behind lutherie you should check out a book called "Left Brain Lutherie" I forget who it's by. My friend Todd's an engineer and loves the thing for some "light reading"... I on the other hand have no interest in knowing THAT much about my hobby lol. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B. Aaron Posted March 19, 2010 Report Share Posted March 19, 2010 Yup. Simple physics that are hilariously just making it to lutherie hahahaha. Ervin's stuff deals with that a lot as well. HOWEVER, if you're interested in the actual physics behind lutherie you should check out a book called "Left Brain Lutherie" I forget who it's by. My friend Todd's an engineer and loves the thing for some "light reading"... I on the other hand have no interest in knowing THAT much about my hobby lol. Chris I know! It just kills me that it's taking so long for simple stuff like that to find its way into instrument construction, and that there are people out there who say things like "science has no place in the world of fine guitar construction." Evidently they don't care about accurate fret placement? Thanks for mentioning that book... it looks like something I should add to my collection. I think I'll pick that up some time this week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Mac Millan Posted March 25, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 Thanks for all of your answers this has been a great help. Regards,Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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