WezV Posted September 22, 2011 Report Share Posted September 22, 2011 the stew-mac has got better since they changed it to cut on the pull stroke - and i think more recently they changed it to a japanese saw anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted September 22, 2011 Report Share Posted September 22, 2011 The one I currently have is a pull stroke saw, so it can't have been that recent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WezV Posted September 22, 2011 Report Share Posted September 22, 2011 could be a few years now - the first i brought (about 9 years ago now) was a traditional gents saw that cut on the push. second was on the pull stroke but this one is more recent http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Fretting_supplies/Saws_and_slots/Japanese_Fret_Saw_System.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackdog Posted September 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2011 I bought the original StewMac gents saw with depth stop about 4 years ago. I'm pretty sure it cuts on the pull stroke. I must have cut about 5 fretboards with that one at most, and it already started to wear out and have problems. I can't say I'm happy with the quality of that product. Then I adapted the depth stop of the SM saw to a japanese saw I bought locally. Immensely better saw, but like I said, it cuts too narrow a slot. The new SM japanese version that WezV posted is the one I just got, and it cuts very well and the size of the slot seems to be just right. Let's just hope it has a longer service life... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted September 23, 2011 Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 Overpriced as usual from SM! Are there any specific sources in the EU for those Japanese saws? There are of course a wide selection at Axminster however many of them have no kerf specs listed. How would it be best to cut holes in those blades for a depth stop? Vertical mill and ball end or perhaps a Dremel chainsaw sharpener bit in a drill press? Sorry for the OT Blackdog. Your tight fret slots are somewhat concerning! I think I might compile this thread into a PDF for personal reference for that time when I eventually make my way around to my own semi archtop. I'll probably be a lot greyer and even scattier by that time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackdog Posted September 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 Overpriced as usual from SM! Are there any specific sources in the EU for those Japanese saws? There are of course a wide selection at Axminster however many of them have no kerf specs listed. How would it be best to cut holes in those blades for a depth stop? Vertical mill and ball end or perhaps a Dremel chainsaw sharpener bit in a drill press? I don't know of any specific source. I bought mine from a local woodworking tools shop. Kerf specs are not necessarily specified, but I guess you can always ask before buying. Drilling the two holes on the blade was not trivial, very hard steel ! I used some kind of precision drill bit for metal that I bought from the local hardware store chain. It is a similar idea to the brad-point bits used for wood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Workingman Posted September 23, 2011 Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 Overpriced as usual from SM! Are there any specific sources in the EU for those Japanese saws? There are of course a wide selection at Axminster however many of them have no kerf specs listed. How would it be best to cut holes in those blades for a depth stop? Vertical mill and ball end or perhaps a Dremel chainsaw sharpener bit in a drill press? I don't know of any specific source. I bought mine from a local woodworking tools shop. Kerf specs are not necessarily specified, but I guess you can always ask before buying. Drilling the two holes on the blade was not trivial, very hard steel ! I used some kind of precision drill bit for metal that I bought from the local hardware store chain. It is a similar idea to the brad-point bits used for wood. More off topic: Is it possible to check the kerf with a mirometer. If so, what is the best way? Thanks a superb build thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddiewarlock Posted September 23, 2011 Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 Stewmac sells what the call the crimper/masher, or something like that. I always mash the tangs of the frets a bit so i don't get that much of a backbow. With double action truss rods it's not too much of an issue, but with single action truss rods it is... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted September 23, 2011 Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 Yeah, having a board backbow on you is an additional pressure you really don't need your single action rod to correct, even if it is possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottR Posted September 24, 2011 Report Share Posted September 24, 2011 Drilling the two holes on the blade was not trivial, very hard steel ! I used some kind of precision drill bit for metal that I bought from the local hardware store chain. It is a similar idea to the brad-point bits used for wood. I've run into that problem building knives, drilling pin/post holes for the handles. I've had good luck with masonry bits. SR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackdog Posted September 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 25, 2011 Time for a bit of a progress report... Like I said, I decided to route the neck pocket with the top removed. First drilled 4 holes on the top, kept aligned to the back assembly by the external index holes, and then put 4 nice dowels to align the two things together. "Like this." Now I could get rid of the tabs, so I cut the front of the body/heel surface. This plane, at 90 degrees of the centerblock plane, will be just in front of the 19th fret position. And needs to be at a proper distance from the bottom of the cutaways to allow proper access to the upper frets. I did this with a straight edge guiding a template router bit, for a straight, square and clean cut. The reworked fretboard ended up very well, so it got glued on the neck. I built a mortise template using the same method I explained earlier in this thread. Once the neck's tenon could be inserted in the template, I drew the lines following the sides of the fretboard on the template to find the true centerline of the template. Aligned the template on top of the body assembly and used a block of wood to angle the template. I just bought this cute angle gauge yesterday, and found that the exact angle that I needed was 5.5 degrees. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackdog Posted September 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 25, 2011 With the template centered and angled I routed the mortise. I went for a depth that would leave the fretboard 2mm proud of the top at the body/neck joint. With this offset and the 5.5 deg angle I have a clearance (from the top of the frets) of 15mm at the bridge position. With the top in place and with a flush-cut bit I cut the opening of the mortise on the top. And now the neck can go in place. Still, the heel to body joint needs fine adjustment, but the top can be glued on to the body assembly. This will have to wait, though. First I need to clean the f-holes of any routing burns, fully mask all these openings from the inside of the top and glue the orange label in place. But I will not be home for the whole week and don't want to rush things. I will resume the work next weekend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted September 25, 2011 Report Share Posted September 25, 2011 "Like this." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackdog Posted September 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 25, 2011 OK, I lied. I am not THAT patient.... I decided to go on a bit more.... Masked all the openings of the top plate. Now these will remain closed until after polishing the finish. Applied my version of the orange label, with the corresponding serial number. Again, I will not see this one again until polishing is over. Getting ready for the top gluing operation. Everything at easy reach, and the dry run was done already (the complete process of closing and clamping without the glue, just to see if I will find any trouble). Notice that I also masked the mortise, I don't want to fight with glue squeezed out in here. Degreased all the surfaces with naphta and starting to apply the glue with the roller, to the top mostly on the contoured bracing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackdog Posted September 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 25, 2011 And to the centerblock and kerfed linings on the body assembly. And put the dowels in place. The top plate was installed, I kept the tail index tab to center it to the jig, and the dowels do the rest. And now the caul goes on top. First aligned by the long screws on the index hole positions. Finally, the complete assembly is bolted down with the 18 screws around the perimeter. The top is now clamped to the rims and centerblock. Tomorrow morning I will unclamp everything, and it will remain like that until next weekend, when I will do the trimming of the top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osorio Posted September 25, 2011 Report Share Posted September 25, 2011 This thread make seems so easy to build a gutiar .... nice, very nice job Black! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted September 25, 2011 Report Share Posted September 25, 2011 Wow. I feel a certain degree of Zen going into this closing of the box, to be completed when you remove that masking tape. I need to find myself the right piece of Mahoganii to stash for my own build one day. Sigh! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackdog Posted September 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2011 This thread make seems so easy to build a gutiar .... nice, very nice job Black! Thanks Osorio. But building guitars IS easy, don't you find ? (You've built some great ones yourself) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackdog Posted September 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2011 This morning I unclamped the beast and everything looks nominal. Now it will have to wait till the weekend, I'm leaving today on one of these silly day-job business trips... (sigh) The things one has to do to be able to afford honduras mahogany !! But there is still time for a little trivia. A small departure from vintage correctness that I forgot to mention. You have noticed that I built this thing with a completely solid centerblock. In the late 50s, this is how the ES-335s were built. a couple of holes inside the pickup cavities wiere drilled for the pickup wires to get into the controls area. In 1959 (probably late 58) the two upperscale sisters of the 335 were introduced: The ES-345 was THE Stereo guitar. Cosmetically, it had a slightly more elaborate binding, the pearloid double parallelogram inlays, gold hardware and an optional tremolo. But the electrics were the big novelty. Wired in stereo, with each pickup going to separate channels, and the all-new vari-tone circuit. The ES-355 was the luxury one. It had the appointments of the Les Paul Custom, with the multi-ply binding, gold hardware, bound headstock with the split diamond and the pearl inlaid ebony fretboard. Tremolo was standard, but upon it's introduction, the stereo/varitone (SV) was optional on the ES-355. From 1960 on, the SV version became the standard one. The vari-tone is a 6-way rotary switch passive notch filter with an array of capacitors and two big chokes (inductors). A big chunk of wood was removed from the centerblock to install these chokes. The opening in the block was under the bridge pickup and extended into the space between pickups, and it affected about 3/4ths of the width of the centerblock. This virtually cut the centerblock in two. In traditional Gibson style, even when the 355 was destined to be mono, the centerblock was sometimes cut anyway. Other times, probably to ease production flow, all the centerblocks were cut, even those used for the ES-335s ! Stuffing the electronics into the guitar through the f-holes is a real pain, and the idea of the cut in the block eventually became standard ES-335 spec sometime in the early 60s. That said, I think that the solid, continuous, block contributes to the signature sound of a classic 335s, and that is why I decided to go with that type of construction on this build. The historic reissues made by Gibson today sport the solid centerblock for the 335s, but all the normal production ES-335s have the cut under the bridge pickup for easier wiring installation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddiewarlock Posted September 26, 2011 Report Share Posted September 26, 2011 Blackdog, looks amazing as always One question, though. How do you glue a fretboard to a neck that has been already carved??? I replaced a fretboard on a prs copy i had built. and had to remove it again, because it had moved towards a side. It was a royal pain in the arse to glue it properly, i used stewmac's neck caul, i tried nails, but it was cracking the fretboard...so with a lot of patience i managed to do it, but i hated it. so, if you could share how you did it, i'd be very grateful. Thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackdog Posted September 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2011 Blackdog, looks amazing as always One question, though. How do you glue a fretboard to a neck that has been already carved??? I replaced a fretboard on a prs copy i had built. and had to remove it again, because it had moved towards a side. It was a royal pain in the arse to glue it properly, i used stewmac's neck caul, i tried nails, but it was cracking the fretboard...so with a lot of patience i managed to do it, but i hated it. so, if you could share how you did it, i'd be very grateful. Thank you! I think I got the solution for you. I use a stapler similar to this one: I use three staples along the length of the back of the fretboard. The stapler is rather weak and the staples will only go a little bit in. Then I nip the "bridge" of the staples off. The rest is simple: apply the glue on the neck, carefully align the fretboard where you want it, and press for the small pins to dig into the neck. It goes very easy, and it doesn't move at all when you clamp. For clamping I use two StewMac sanding blocks. Just added a neoprene padding between the blocks and the fretboard this last time, because the frets will mark the blocks otherwise. Hope this helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddiewarlock Posted September 28, 2011 Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 Thanks a lot Blackdog will have to buy more radius blocks! hehehehe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireFly Posted September 30, 2011 Report Share Posted September 30, 2011 The smallest things can be so innovative lol. I'm gonna try it on my next fretboard repair! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackdog Posted October 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 Back from part one of my business trip I managed to work a little bit on the guitar this saturday… A quick run through the router table with the flush bit took care of the excess top material. Now I have he body assembled and in its final shape. I carved the neck. It's pretty much finished. Maybe a few small corrections are still needed and definitely a lot of sanding, but it's pretty much there. I shortened the heel and left it just a tad proud of the back plate. I will sand this flush after the neck is set. The heel ended up being quite adequate, almost perfect. My fears of a heel too small were unfounded after all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackdog Posted October 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 Fitting the neck is quite an issue with these guitars. Due to the shape and curves of the laminated top the fretboard needs to be elevated. This is not unusual in archtop designs, where the top behaves in a very similar fashion. But this is not quite an archtop. It has a shorter bridge, elevating only about 15mm from the top. In that respect, it is like a solidbody. So the elevation of the fretboard is not nearly as much as on an archtop. That is why Gibson chose to use a neck joint not unlike the one used in the Les Pauls, and to fill the space between the base of the fretboard and the top plate with mahogany wedges. Along the early production years, the elevation of the fretboard evolved from almost nothing, with thin wedges just to make up for the neck angle (the top is pretty much flat up to where the fretboard ends), to around 3mm in the early 60s. With the very shallow ones it was a problem to achieve a reasonably low action, and in some examples the ABR-1 bridges got shaved down by the users. As you can see, lots of manual work went into building these guitars in the Kalamazoo days. This accounts for the wide inconsistencies from one guitar to the next. I went for a healthy 2mm overall elevation, plus of course an equally healthy 5.5 degrees neck angle. This gives me a clearance of 15.5mm for the bridge, between the top plate and the plane of the fret tops. I could live with a mm or so less, so I may adjust this a bit at the final neck fitting. I shaped a pair of mahogany wedges in the belt sander for a good fit under the fretboard. And glued to the fretboard's underside. Sanded them flush with the fretboard sides and end. And right now, the preliminary fitting is good enough to proceed with the following operations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.