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Are we talking a guitar that's smaller? Or an ACTUAL smaller instrument... like a fiddle or mando? It's pretty simple... if the structures don't change and you're just putting a pickup somewhere that doesn't interfere with moving parts, it's not going to change tonally. If you change size, structure, bracing pattern, or pop something in there to weight down the top (like a pickup) it will.

Chris

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Are we talking a guitar that's smaller? Or an ACTUAL smaller instrument... like a fiddle or mando? It's pretty simple... if the structures don't change and you're just putting a pickup somewhere that doesn't interfere with moving parts, it's not going to change tonally. If you change size, structure, bracing pattern, or pop something in there to weight down the top (like a pickup) it will.

Chris

Yes, let's say it's a fiddle.

Very interesting. I've posted the questions on some fiddle forums and the only ones actually trying to answer my question say that it would have great effect and only leave acoustic output volume for practicing purposes. I can't believe that. But I'm not surprised, fiddlers are complete idiots...

About the pu, this one will be mounted at the end of the fingerboard, so it won't touch the soundboard.

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Not at all. I'm asking about how the acoustic sound would be affected. I want an alround instrument for acoustic as well as electric playing, but if the output jack would kill the sound and make it suitable only for amplified playing, I rather leave it untouched and use an other instrument for electric playing.

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Not at all. I'm asking about how the acoustic sound would be affected. I want an alround instrument for acoustic as well as electric playing, but if the output jack would kill the sound and make it suitable only for amplified playing, I rather leave it untouched and use an other instrument for electric playing.

You could use a strap button jack socket, replacing the body end strap button. That way, you don't need to make a hole in the body :D

Like the one shown on this page, 4th item down the list, http://www.axesrus.com/axeElectronicsJacks.htm

or you can get a tapered one that doesn't need any screws.

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Not at all. I'm asking about how the acoustic sound would be affected. I want an alround instrument for acoustic as well as electric playing, but if the output jack would kill the sound and make it suitable only for amplified playing, I rather leave it untouched and use an other instrument for electric playing.

You could use a strap button jack socket, replacing the body end strap button. That way, you don't need to make a hole in the body :D

Okay... It's not a guitar, it's a fiddle. Still, it's the general principle I'm out for and that should be the same for bowed and plucked instruments.

Edited by Svento
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well looking at the pure phisics of it your adding mass thats gonna change how the the instument vibrates and transmints the sound also a pickup takes mechanical energy and changes it to electrical energy so your gonna naturaly take some volume there. but in the end. im guessint there would be such a small diffence that you wouldnt notice.

if i were you i would pm FireFly about where the best place to place the jack would be she builds violins and could probably give you some good advice.

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a piezo pickup on the bridge and the jack mounted to the side of the chin plate is pretty customary any more.... if you can hear a gnat fart, you will hear the difference having those mounted makes.... make sure you have a good pre-amp as the first in line...running a 3 foot cable to a belt pack is the best way to keep it simple.... if you run it through an amp, take your time to find the correct amp first.... a good tube pre-amp is very beneficial

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a piezo pickup on the bridge and the jack mounted to the side of the chin plate is pretty customary any more.... if you can hear a gnat fart, you will hear the difference having those mounted makes.... make sure you have a good pre-amp as the first in line...running a 3 foot cable to a belt pack is the best way to keep it simple.... if you run it through an amp, take your time to find the correct amp first.... a good tube pre-amp is very beneficial

Amplifying won't be a problem, I'll use the same amp as I use for my electric. Magnetic pu, no preamp needed. My only concern is about taking up a whole in the ribs, as it is irreversable. What worries me is that some people - most of them - says that the sound won't be affected in any way, because the the ribs aren't any vibrating parts. Others say that any surgery in the ribs will have very big effect because they're so thin from the start.

Edited by Svento
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if you cut into the body of a fiddle, it will sound different.... not to mention the fact that most fiddles have strings that will not pick up on a magnetic pickup.... you need steel strings to get the pickup to work.... most guys who play fiddle will not use the steel core strings because they do not sound "right".... another thought on this is that a violin has a fairly hard radius on the fingerboard.... how will you get a pickup to fit this radius?

with using the same amp as your electric guitar, you will need to set up some EQ and volume pedals in line before the amp or one of the instruments will not sound good.... fiddles and guitars are strung instruments, after that there are lots of changes.... a fiddle will amplify the high end upper order harmonics and drive anyone around absolutely nuts.... i would strongly encourage you to re-think this as sound men will hate you for putting two wildly differing eq's on the same instrument amp.... for the average sound guy out there, they will just cut the EQ to fit the fiddle and leave it there, leaving your guitar sounding like crap

there have been a few fiddle makers who made a magnetic pickup.... they are not in business anymore.... there is a reason for this.... just google violin pickups and find something simple and go from there.... even with the simple pre-amp, you will want to use an EQ pedal in line before any amplification....

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I didn't ask about pickups and amplification... I've been using magnetic pu for seven years. Two small coils made molded into plastic, arched like the fingerboard, made exclusively for fiddle. It works fine and I'd never rely on anything else. All these years I've been playing it through a guitar amp and it works fine - no need for preamp. I've never given gut strings a single thought. I wouldn't dream of using anything other than steel - even for acoustic playing.

The only commercial manufacturer of magnetic pu:s for fiddles that I've heard about is Bowtronics. My pu is made from them and it works because it's made with two individual coils, one for each string-couple, placed between the strings. They disappeared mainly because fiddlers who'd never tried it insisted in the fact that magnetic pu:s don't work with violins... I took part in several discussions on the subject a few years ago, but my opinion was irrelevant. I wasn't reliable because I actually used a magnetic pu... Now there's a German fiddler - Uli Bösking (from whom I bought my Bowtronics) - who's developed a pu from the same principles as Bowtronics, only it's adjustable. The big problem with making magnetic pu:s for fiddles is the intelligence level of the average fiddler. Fiddlers who never tried them know that they won't work... I've never had problems with sound guys. I adjust my amp until it sounds good and the guitarist does the same with his. I don't understand what would be the problem.

So I know what kind of pu I want and need and how to amplify it. My question is whether or not a tele jack in the ribs will ruin the sound. Some fiddle people say it would but I'm sceptical, because the ribs aren't really supposed to vibrate.

Edited by Svento
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in theory the ribs, or sides as guitar makers would call them, should not affect the sound...but, put a hole in them and add mass in the form of a metal plug and it could affect the sound.... as well, i would be concerned with the structure around the plug being sufficient enough to hold up with repeated use of plugging and unplugging the cable

internet sites don't reflect "known" knowledge, only "stated" knowledge.....I wish you had provided the additional info from the start as it didn't seem like you had much of a grasp on the topic, which now doesn't seem to be the case

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I wish you had provided the additional info from the start as it didn't seem like you had much of a grasp on the topic, which now doesn't seem to be the case

When I discuss this on fiddle sites, it's well known to any decent citizen that magnetic pu:s simply can't work with bowed instruments. The empiric proof is that fiddlers traditionally use piezos... There is so much superstition and anti-intellectualism that any serious retard would have nightmares. Other examples are how e-fiddles are constructed, a massive lump of maple because maple is the material (acoustic) fiddles are made from, 35 mm thick, then a thin flexive acoustic bridge standing on top of that. For some reason this bridge doesn't manage to transfer string vibration onto the heavy piece of wood. A scientific approach would be to examine the properties of the bridge and the body and realize that the body should be made from a less dense wood and the bridge should be made more stiff and heavy, but no... Instead a rubber plate is placed between bridge and body so that the transfer is cut completely and the tone is killed; the body becomes dead weight. If they'd asked any maker of electric guitars they would have had some relevant guidance, but they won't ask. I had my electric made from mahogany and semi-solid, yet the bridge was too weak, so I got some painful and weird overtones. I had a bridge made from ebony and brass and led the strings through the body instead of using the floating trapeze acoustic tailpiece and got good sound without those painful overtones. No fiddler or fiddle luthier would ever had gotten that idea, it came to me after years of activity on guitar forums. People there usually aren't familiar with the misconceptions in the fiddle world that are considered scientific facts.

Therefore I usually don't have to explain all those things with guitar people. With a little insight in the fiddle world, though, I guess that one may have heard about some of those old wisdoms, for example that magnetic pu:s don't work with bowed instruments. That's not very strange because normal guitar type magnetic pu:s certainly won't work because they're sensitive to the vertical movements of the string, while the bowed string moves horizontally. It's easy to solve this problem though. Individual coils placed between the strings will read the horizontal movements and work with bowed instruments. Of course the pu must be arched like the fingerboard and the coils should have the right angle to eachother.

I avoid those discussions because there are those old misconceptions about bowed instruments plus some facts that's not common knowledge in the guitar world. The sensitivity of the guitar pu isn't known by makers of guitar pu:s because it's not important. Those pu:s reads the vertcal movements and obviously that's enough. To make a pu for bowed instruments though, that knowledge is essential, and the pu must be constructed differently. I've had this discussion with some extraordinary pu makers and they won't believe me... Therefore it's hard to find someone to make a pu for me because they've tried the plucked instrument approach with no success. That kind of construction with individual coils between the strings sounds completely weird for most pu makers, so they won't try even if they get paid!

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