LightninMike Posted September 18, 2011 Report Share Posted September 18, 2011 I get it.... and trying to get a lot of fiddle players to get it is just as hard as trying to get them to change.... i have held Vassar Clement's Gaspar, and was really amazed at the work that went into her... i would like to think it was him that got me into actually listening to the instrument, altho it probably happened years earlier... a traditional fiddle and an electric fiddle are very different animals.... and guys have tried to take the knowledge of a guitar and apply it to a fiddle - they might as well have been applying it to a tuba.... as you have stated there is a lot of bad info out there.... anywho, back to your original idea: it makes a lot more sense now.... unfortunately i think that the conversion would need a bit of beefing up around the jack to make it substantial enough to last... if you wanted to be able to go back to just an acoustic instrument, i think the additional bracing would indeed make a sonic difference Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpm99 Posted September 18, 2011 Report Share Posted September 18, 2011 I have two thoughts. First, one of the things you're going to need is metal string. I'm admittedly ignorant about fiddles. Do they make nickel/steel strings for fiddle? I don't think nylon/cat gut/whatever strings will get picked up by a magnetic pickup. Second, I think it's worth an experimental build just to prove those guys wrong. If you can figure out the string issue, try putting a tuner on one end of a 2x4, improvise some sort of nut and saddle, put a pickup in the middle somewhere, and bow away. Like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZNk76_4lds If it works, you prove your point. If not, you're not out a lot for the research and you learned something along the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Svento Posted September 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 18, 2011 I don't understand. What is it that I should test with that stringed log? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpm99 Posted September 18, 2011 Report Share Posted September 18, 2011 Because you probably have one lying around already. I was just suggesting that you could prove your theory with a Diddley Bow you built in five minutes before you spend months working on the real deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Svento Posted September 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 18, 2011 (edited) A traditional fiddle and an electric fiddle are very different animals.... and guys have tried to take the knowledge of a guitar and apply it to a fiddle - they might as well have been applying it to a tuba.... as you have stated there is a lot of bad info out there.... Yes. And regarding some other details, I wish e-violin luthier had taken a lot more knowledge from electric guitars, like the general construction of the instrument. There's no knowledge at all about how vibrations go from the string via the bridge and further to the body. A body is built with the shape of an acoustic fiddle, only with solid maple instead of a resonant box. That would require a rather solid bridge or the energi would just feed back into the strings. And even if they made that transfering work, solid maple has a quite painful sound... With a body made from light weight and resonant wood along with a stiff and solid bridge, no rubber dampening would be needed. The thing wouldn't sound like an acoustic, but I'm not sure that's the purpose of an electric fiddle. Anyhow, back to your original idea: it makes a lot more sense now.... unfortunately i think that the conversion would need a bit of beefing up around the jack to make it substantial enough to last... if you wanted to be able to go back to just an acoustic instrument, i think the additional bracing would indeed make a sonic difference I wonder... The question is whether or not the ribs make any sound. The ribs and the bottom are made from maple and as far as I know they're supposed to be stiff, non-vibrant and silent, but I'm not sure about that. Mounting things on the strings, the soundboard or the bridge would definitly mute the tone, but the back and the ribs, as far as I know, only serves the purpose of containing the air that amplifies the vibrations of the soundboard. Edited September 18, 2011 by Svento Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LightninMike Posted September 18, 2011 Report Share Posted September 18, 2011 well, the back and ribs are attached to the soundboard.... if either of them were thicker, it would change the way in which the soundboard resonates.... now, would adding mass in the form of a jack plate be enough to change the resonance...highly doubtful.... would the rib be substantial enough to hold up to repeated use, that i really do not know, but have a suspicion that it would not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Svento Posted September 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 18, 2011 Maybe there's some way of testing? If I'd attach something heavy to the ribs and try and hear if it makes any difference... maybe I could put a plate behind that mechanical thing that holds the chinrest? A carpenter is fiddling with my violin right now, but I'll make some experiments when I get it back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim37 Posted September 19, 2011 Report Share Posted September 19, 2011 i honestly wouldnt worry about the jack harming tone. just make sure you dont harm structure. you should just build you own solid body fiddle maybe out of a warmer wood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Svento Posted September 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 19, 2011 i honestly wouldnt worry about the jack harming tone. just make sure you dont harm structure. you should just build you own solid body fiddle maybe out of a warmer wood. I wouldn't worry if there weren't so many people saying that adding extra mass to the ribs and making them stiffer would mute the acoustic output considerably. I have very hard to belive that but I'd rather not take risks when the operation is irreversable... I do have a solidbody that I'm not very pleased with, and in time I will have a solid body made for me. In fact I have the instrument planned into the last little detail. The project will consume some money though and I'm not ready for that, especially as the setting up of this acoustic one has required some investments. Regarding playability, this very special acoustic will match all my need, so I don't believe I'll use neither my old solid nor my old acoustic anymore. So for a considerable time this acoustic will also function as electric and I have aestethical objections against cables hanging on the outside - I want it to look as a fullblood electric. I also like the idea of having one alround instrument that works for all purposes. Last summer we were going to do some small semi-electric gig where there were no amps, and I plugged right into the PA, which I'd normally never do. An acoustic body would probably have made it sound a lot better. Besides, on the way to the gig, we did a minor fully acoustic gig on a parking lot, which I did on my acoustic, an instrument having that very limited access to the fingerboard of a normal fiddle. Okay, the whole project was a big mistake, but with this new fiddle amplified, I'd had one single instrument that would have served me all the way. We might even had done a fully electric pub gig or something in the night - without needing to carry more than one instrument. But like I said, I will also have a solidbody made in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Svento Posted September 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 This is interesting: I made an experiment to see what happens when adding some extra mass to the ribs. I took a table knife and wedged it in behind the chinrest holder. When I played a string with the bow, the knife vibrated, which indicates that the ribs do have some sound. I wedged it in a little harder until it appeared to be mute, and I experienced that I had a slight loss of tone. The volume became a bit weaker and the tone a slight bit shorter. However: I did the same thing with a teaspoon and got the opposite result! Still the difference was barely noticeable, but to me it sounded as if I got some more sound. Longer tone and louder output. Made me think of sustain blocks, perhaps the right amount of added metal sings along with the instrument? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim37 Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 well a tele jack doenst have near the mass of a spoon or knife plus its anchored better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Svento Posted September 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 well a tele jack doenst have near the mass of a spoon or knife plus its anchored better. It's the jack plate too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LightninMike Posted September 22, 2011 Report Share Posted September 22, 2011 it also comes down to the type of tele jack plate you use.... here's some Google images of different types, some are meant to be added to the body using a "compression fitting(but only for a thick body)" some are alike, but using screws to hold it, not compression, and others are like a Gibson, with either a football shape or a rectangle http://www.google.com/search?q=telecaster+jack+plate&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=qHo&sa=G&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=s&biw=1280&bih=894&prmd=imvnsfd&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&ei=inN7TqOPLsiSgQeU_8mxAQ&ved=0CF0QsAQ i think you will need to add something to the rib to beef it up to, to use a tele jack .... this is where the new mass would come from.... you wouldn't be adding just the jack, as that would not hold up to repeated use and hold up to the weight of a cable "tugging" on it during play.... now, if you were to use a Switchcraft mono plug, you need a 3/8" hole in the body..... this still doesn't change the amount of tension the cable will add to a fairly light construction.... so, at the least you have light metal set into a 3/8" hole in the side of a lightweight structure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Svento Posted September 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2011 This is the one I'd use: http://shop.textalk.se/shop/4079/art79/h5471/2245471-origpic-64a874.jpg I hope the plate itself is reinforcement enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LightninMike Posted September 23, 2011 Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 with any of the screw in plates, i'd be concerned that the screws to hold it in would strip out too easily...unless it was epoxied in place in which case there could be sonic dampening created by that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Svento Posted September 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 Maybe I could epoxy-glue some nuts on the inside of the ribs and use metal screws... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaycee Posted September 23, 2011 Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 The sides on an acoustic guitar need to be stiff in order for all the energy to be transmitted to the soundboard which vibrates. When I built my 12 string I left the bracing quite deep as I didn't want to experiment to much. I glued ribs onto the side which made the them very stiff and in my opinion helped the energy transmit into the soundboard very well, the result of which helped the sound project excellently. I would use a cylinder jack into the side.Cylinder Jack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Svento Posted September 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 (edited) The sides on an acoustic guitar need to be stiff in order for all the energy to be transmitted to the soundboard which vibrates. When I built my 12 string I left the bracing quite deep as I didn't want to experiment to much. I glued ribs onto the side which made the them very stiff and in my opinion helped the energy transmit into the soundboard very well, the result of which helped the sound project excellently. I would use a cylinder jack into the side.Cylinder Jack I think the sides are stiff for a different reason. I don't think that energy goes from the ribs to the soundboard. However. the sides should be fairly stiff not to absorb the vibrations of the soundboard. The bottom and the sides - as far as I know - are meant to contain the air amplifying the vibrations of the soundboard. A less dense material like mahogany would vibrate more than for example maple and some energy would be lost. Some of the highs would be cut and the sound would be warmer and less pronounced. There's a problem with the cylinder jack, I believe. Isn't it supposed to be fixed with one nut on each side of the wood? I can't get my hand into the body... The good thing with a jack plate, is that I can attach it there first, then attach the plate into the wood. I believe I'd have a slight extra reinforcement of the thin wood too. Edited September 23, 2011 by Svento Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaycee Posted September 23, 2011 Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 Ah I see, it's already built Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Svento Posted September 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 Ah I see, it's already built It's built and I want it amplified. Ideally I'd install electronics permanently and integrated, but I'm not willing to sacrifice acoustic sound quality for those operation, for I really need a loud acoustic instrument that can be heard unplugged over the drums and over my voice. In that case I'll have it be an acoustic instrument with a pu instead of an electro-acoustic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeithHowell Posted September 25, 2011 Report Share Posted September 25, 2011 I don't know much about violins but why don't you install a 1/8" jack somewhere under the chin rest thingy. The smaller plug is much lighter and the socket is too. You could run the much lighter cable to a box attached to your belt with equalisation controls and then a standard 1/4" jack socket for connection to your amplifier. I saw this setup with the violinist in a band called DNA Strings at live concert a while back. He used a radio system on his belt and an electrified acoustic violin as well. Keith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Svento Posted September 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 25, 2011 The only reason is that I don't wan't that. If electronics can't be integrated without ruining sound, of course I'll use some external electronics, but I'd prefer it permanently installed. Those electric chinrest cost fortunes too, I'd have to save money for some half a year... Compare that to a jack plate. Preamp won't be needed. I plug right in to a guitar amp. Done that for years and it works very fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeithHowell Posted September 25, 2011 Report Share Posted September 25, 2011 I'm not saying use electronics! Just install a 1/8" plug under the chin rest somehow. That way you wont have to worry about the integrity of the rest of the instrument. You can then run your cable straight to a guitar amp if you want. Smaller plug, lighter wont poke you in the throat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim37 Posted September 25, 2011 Report Share Posted September 25, 2011 You could evem rout it to the rear of the chin rest and have the cable go down your back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Svento Posted September 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 25, 2011 Indeed there are quite a few ways to handle this without doing any damage to the instrument. That's how I'll handle it if it turns out that I can't install the electrics permanently without destroying the instrument tonally. However, I'd prefer integrated electronics if that's possible. I'd like this instrument to become a true electric one, though with full acoustic tone ad output volume. Chinrest mounting is something i do consider but a normal chinrest wouldn't have room for anything like that. I'd need to mold the jack into epoxy or something and stick it to the chinrest. Acceptable but not elegant... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.