Tonewood Myth Busting Project

[demonx]

I'm curious to get some opinions before I start this project.

What I'm looking at doing is building an electric guitar from an MDF body and an existing neck I made, assembling with cheapest of cheap china components - EXCEPT I'll use a top shelf high gain pickup.

I'll then compare in a recorded environment this guitar against one with the same model pickup, but made from top shelf quality tonewood and components.

My argument for many years is Tonewood (in an electric) as not as big influencing factor as everyone makes out and my guess is the MDF guitar will not sound all that much different from the tonewood guitar with the high gain pickup. My argument has been that 90% of the sound comes from the pickups and the other influencing factors are divided between the remaining 10%. I've copped some negative responses about this view by many "believers" but I plan to make an example to see how this theory pans out. I've heard recorded examples where a builder has done this with a pine guitar, but pine is still considered a tonewood in some peoples eyes. MDF on the other hand is taking it to the extreme.

So - what I'm asking is:

Can you see any potention problems with this comparison, so I can plan around those into the build

Any suggestions that can help this experiment

Anyone have any ideas how it might pan out! Predictions!

[DropTop]

Seems like fun.There is this guy (researcher) who says the same thing give or take.I would like it more if even the neck was made from a toneless material.Also if somebody could it would be pretty nice to swap PU between a full mahogany les paul and a swamp ash / maple board just to see what happens .

[Dean]

I have believed this for a long time.I think wood is picked for strength and weight.i believe tone comes from the player.

[Muzz]

Yep this will be a fun project, I too have an mdf body

My prediction is yours will sound great with a good pickup and amp.

It is very simple to hear the tone contribution of the wood in an electric guitar. Just get a pick up the same as the one in your guitar, but don't put it in the guitar, wire it up to a bit of ply with the same vol, tone pot set up, then clamp the pick up to the back of your guitar. The pickup will only gather vibrations passed through the wood, plug it in to your amp and you can hear your tone wood isolated. I would guestimate it contributes to about 3-5% of the sound coming out of your guitar. I think that small amount can add some nice individuality to a guitars sound. Are you going to make recordings of timber versus mdf?

[Ripthorn]

I would make sure that the body shape is the same as the one you will be comparing to, just to try to isolate all the variables. So try to replicate the original: carving, finish, shape, etc. This will help minimize some of the effects of the different vibration characterisitcs inherent in those items and further show the differences just between the parameters you are interested in. Having spent lots of time in labs and doing experiments, you want to make sure that you are really only testing what it is that you want to test and not some unknown artifact.

[pauliemc]

Sorry man. But im a believer in timber having an affect on sound. Iv even done your experiment a few years ago. But having said that its still well worth doing this just as a learning experiance for your own building.

But, to properly do it, you have to eliminate all variables except the body timber. So the hardware has to be the same for each guitar. Cant use cheapo wiring for one & good stuff for the other. Thats another experiment entirely.

To do it right you need to make a neck & 3 bodies.

All 3 bodies have to be identical, except for the timber species. So if the first body is a 3 piece ash, then the next is a 3 piece mahogany & the third a 3 piece MDF.

All routed to the exact same depths etc etc. No finishes can be applied. Use the same bridge for all 3 guitars.

I did it with a strat shaped thing. Just assemble one guitar & take a few recordings. Strip it down & transfer the neck, bridge & electronics to the next & record more samples. But you have to record the exact same sound samples as you did with the previous guitar.

For the first batch I mounted the pickups directly to the bodies. Then re-did the experiment with the electronics loaded into a pickguard like a strat. Even that had a bit of an affect on the sound, especialy the clean tones.

I had a mate record the samples & not let me know which ones I was listening to during the comparison. The differences are not too pronounced, but they are definitly there. The MDF was not all that bad, in some ways it was actualy OK. except for the weight & extreme mess working it made. But to an experianced ear there are definitly differences in sound from one timber to the next.

[SwedishLuthier]

I see a risk that some people will attribute the differences in sound (better or worse???) to the different hardware. So if you want a completely foolproof (if there is anything like that at all) you should use the very same neck and hardware (and finish) on the two test vehicles.

But please go on! I would very much like to see (hear) the result. I predict that people can hear a difference but that there will be no distinct consensus regarding which sample is made from what guitar and what sound is best/worst

.

[westhemann]

Like Paulie,I have already done it myself.In fact,my first guitar was Plywood with incredibly cheap hardware.The only good thing about it was the bridge pickup.

It sounded like a guitar,but it did not sound as good as one made of quality wood with quality hardware.This has been done a hundred times even just on this site,and those who know that wood makes a difference will just assume you are tone deaf if you think otherwise.

Still worth doing it for your own knowledge.But you should realize it doesn't help your business to cry voodoo about tonewood.

Since I almost always use EMG or Duncan JB/59 in my guitars,I already know how they sound with maple,mahogany,alder,bubinga,and yes,plywood.

I also know that if I want a dark,deep tone I should look at my stash of Mahogany or Limba,and that if I want a bright guitar I should look at Alder or Maple,maybe a dense piece of Ash...and if I want somewhere in the middle of the tonal range I should go with a light piece of Ash,a piece of bubinga,or something similar...

Good luck selling MDF guitars with cheap hardware.China pretty much has the market cornered there

[Workingman]

I think the test would be more valid if the hardware were the same or interchangeable.

I do have two commercial guitars one with a mahogany body and the other with a maple body that have the same pickups. The hardware (though both are non-tremolo) and scale lengths are different. They sound very different though I don't know what the influence of the hardware and scale length. They were also both made in the same factory though a couple of years apart.

I also installed the same pickup in the bridge position of a fat strat with an agathis body (same scale length as the maple guitar). Once again it sounds different.

I know these are not apples to apples comparisons but they do make me tend to think the wood has an impact, maybe not 50% but more than 10%.

[Our Souls inc.]

here's an example of an MDF guitar body in action.

and one of block.

have fun with your experiment.

[Our Souls inc.]

and finally stone.

[ScottR]

+1 (or 6 or 8 or whatever it is by now) on using the same hardware on both pieces.

SR

[demonx]

I'm not going to be using the same hardware - as the main part of what I'd like to show is the tonewood AND hardware are the least influencing factors. If the pickup is the 90%, then the hardware timber etc etc account for the other 10%. That and I'm not going to sink a fortune into building an MDF guitar.

Ive bought a cheap china floyd rose for $11.00 off ebay!!! Eleven bucks for a floyd, springs, screws, lock nut!!! It's probably made of plastic!

I've bought a set of cheap chine tuners for $7.00... another ebay thing.

I'll be using a neck I've made in the past but didnt install on a guitar for QWC reasons, but it's fine, I just need to fret it.

The MDF I've got piles of down the back of my shed, so the only cost of sinished guitar is the twenty something bucks from the ebay parts, plus the fretwire - all minor. Biggest expense will be the pickup, which I'll try to buy second hand,

Theres no way I'd put this cheap china junk parts on a real build. But it'll serve it's purpose in this case.

Like Paulie,I have already done it myself.In fact,my first guitar was Plywood with incredibly cheap hardware.

Asian guitar factories have been using plywood for years - it's considered a tonewood - believe it, or not.

I've even seen pics of a asian mass produced guitar that is only veneer over a FOAM body... now that is extreme.

[WezV]

I am a believer that wood does affect the tone - but i dont call solid guitar body wood 'tonewood', that is reserved for acoustic tops as far as I am concerned. I also dont believe its everything, you can make up for a less than ideal body wood with careful pickup choice. but even if its only 10% of the final sound, that 10% is very important

the main issue i have with your experiment is the mention of a floyd. I believe body wood choice is less important on trem equipped guitars, at least in comparison to a hardtail where the bridge is in firm contact at all times.

also, everything else should stay the same or your results will not mean anything. - ideally it should be two identical bodies which can have everything else swapped over. but then someone would still point out that the time in between sound takes for reassembly will affect the way you play and could account for any differences, assuming all amp settings are identical and all that stuff.

[SwedishLuthier]

I get that you don't want to spen a bunch of money on this, but if there is a significant difference you will not be able to tell were it comes from. I sugest that you use exactly the same neck, hardware and pickups (moving them from one body to another) if you want to prove that the body wood have minor efect on the sound. Just my two cents...

Wez kinda bet me to this

[Dean]

This debate will never end.I trust the builders of the past, and some of the highest noted in the build community .Tone can be adjusted with carving and bracing.Vibrating a string over a hardwood or a soft wood does make a difference.When electronics are involved ,I think all bets are off.if you want a real experiment , bring three of four different players in to play the same guitar.

[rhoads56]

First of all, the more output from the pickup, the less difference you'll notice.

Secondly, this will become a permanent record that you have discovered it still sounds 'like a guitar', and some people (those who strive to own the absolute best) will view it as 'he's willing to compromise on the quality, because it "doesn't matter, to him"'. Trust me, people remember, the internet never forgets, and clients do research you

Regardless of IF any processed wood based products (MDF, Ply, etc) sound the same, or not, I'll still use natural, beautiful, stunning timbers that inspire feelings, catch someone's eye, and become conversational points.

OR

For the record, back in my first year of business, I did all these experiments. I tried recording the differences in materials, with/without lacquer. What type of lacquer. Does two coats more sound different? Nut materials, headstock angles, sizes and thickness. What effect does it have between bolt-on, set and through pieces. Cut a heap of tonewoods (and junk 'woods') in to the same dimensions and ran a sound source through them to record and analyse it all. The only MDF you'll see in my shop is for shelving.

[MiKro]

Stunning work there Perry!

MK

[killemall8]

Somebody did a test exactly like that a few years ago. Used a duncan JB in 3 different guitars, one of them was an all MDF bodied guitar.

He had posted sound clips of all 3, and nobody could even tell which was which. Even the logner scaled 25.5" one did not sound any different, which threw people off because of the idea that a longer scale will sound twangier.

Same parts and pickups, i still dont hear a difference in any guitar if everything else is identical.

[demonx]

Somebody did a test exactly like that a few years ago. Used a duncan JB in 3 different guitars, one of them was an all MDF bodied guitar.

He had posted sound clips of all 3, and nobody could even tell which was which. Even the logner scaled 25.5" one did not sound any different, which threw people off because of the idea that a longer scale will sound twangier.

Same parts and pickups, i still dont hear a difference in any guitar if everything else is identical.

I did a search before I posted and ordered parts - I came up with nothing, so if these people have done these recordings etc they have not made them easliy available.

As far as everyone saying same hardware yada yada yada - you've missed the complete point (or simply not read my post) or maybe I didnt explain it in the multiple times I typed it

My point is: a pickup in an electric guitar accounts for 90% of the sound and the rest is divided into everything else the guitar is built from.

My point is with a high gain pickup and a tremolo (which pretty much describes all my builds) that the most important decision is the pickup, and then build the guitar around that. Followed by the bridge and then so on...

SO - the only thing that should remain the same is the pickup. Simple.

I can see Perry's point in that people do research etc etc - but I have no plan to sell this abomination. In fact I'd like to keep it here to prove a point to anyone who wonders in. I have no plans to build from shitty timbers - I like nice grain and fancy figuring. But what I want is to be able to say to the people - choose the wood for what you want it to LOOK like - not what some kid in internet land or some fancy marketing campaign reckons it'll sound like.

[rhoads56]

I can see Perry's point in that people do research etc etc - but I have no plan to sell this abomination. In fact I'd like to keep it here to prove a point to anyone who wonders in. I have no plans to build from shitty timbers - I like nice grain and fancy figuring. But what I want is to be able to say to the people - choose the wood for what you want it to LOOK like - not what some kid in internet land or some fancy marketing campaign reckons it'll sound like.

So say that. Advise your client. And if you want to take the risk some 'prefers' the MDF sound, and therefore judge your 'tonewood' guitar against that, then go ahead It would only take one guy, to repost your findings, and send it viral.

If you want to build only high gain monsters, then you may as well build from MDF. I build guitars to have clarity, cut through a mix, and have great tone. I'm not having a go, but high gain pickups just don't do it for me (or my clients once they see the 'benefits'). I'm working with some pretty extreme bands (the one above is for Psycroptic), and I virtually never use high gain pickups. You don't need them with the amps available today. My 'go to' metal pickup is 9.3k. I'm just on the cusp of signing a huge band based on low(er) output pickups. You can't take gain OUT of a high output pickup easily, and you can't replace lost treble without processing.

But, we're getting off track now...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CL4cNthbad0

[rhoads56]

choose the wood for what you want it to LOOK like - not what some kid in internet land or some fancy marketing campaign reckons it'll sound like.

But it's the nuances of tone, not an 'over riding effect' of different woods, that you are looking for. It took me a few years to really appreciate that. A guitar is the sum of its parts x quality of built x construction details. Woods definately do effect the tone.

[RestorationAD]

If you want to build only high gain monsters, then you may as well build from MDF. I build guitars to have clarity, cut through a mix, and have great tone. I'm not having a go, but high gain pickups just don't do it for me (or my clients once they see the 'benefits'). I'm working with some pretty extreme bands (the one above is for Psycroptic), and I virtually never use high gain pickups. You don't need them with the amps available today. My 'go to' metal pickup is 9.3k. I'm just on the cusp of signing a huge band based on low(er) output pickups. You can't take gain OUT of a high output pickup easily, and you can't replace lost treble without processing.

+1 Truth!

I am glad Perry said it because when I say it no one listens.

[rhoads56]

If you want to build only high gain monsters, then you may as well build from MDF. I build guitars to have clarity, cut through a mix, and have great tone. I'm not having a go, but high gain pickups just don't do it for me (or my clients once they see the 'benefits'). I'm working with some pretty extreme bands (the one above is for Psycroptic), and I virtually never use high gain pickups. You don't need them with the amps available today. My 'go to' metal pickup is 9.3k. I'm just on the cusp of signing a huge band based on low(er) output pickups. You can't take gain OUT of a high output pickup easily, and you can't replace lost treble without processing.

+1 Truth!

I am glad Perry said it because when I say it no one listens.

Guess what. Our guitars shared a stage last night. Sensory Amusia and Psycroptic. Got to spend a little bit of time with one of your guitars. Nice work. I offered to re-oil a part of the side where Shaun has literaly worn it out from playing too much. He loves it Shaun's a nice guy.

[Our Souls inc.]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CL4cNthbad0

Thanks for sharing. I hadn't heard of them before. Consider me a fan!