Fretboard Fall Off

[madhattr88]

Anyone find sanding some fall off into the FB helpful? If yes, how much and from what fret?

I've been doing this using a string tension jig, but the more I think about it, I may be doing more harm then good. The board is going to have a back bow after the frets are hammered in. (Just the way it goes). So sanding just the fretless neck and board under simulated string tension may be overkill. Just wondering how you guys do it? Fret board leveling, fret leveling, rid adjustments, etc.

Thanks!!!

[Dean]

I stack two pieces of blue tape at the twelfth fret and sand from there to the end of the fret board.

[jessejames]

I sand in 3 thousandths fall off on the last 5 frets when I level the frets.

[Prostheta]

I feel that it depends on a few factors, mostly where the heel lays and where the counteracting force of the truss rod ends. These two factors stop the neck bending above a certain point under tension and prevent useful relief being dialled in so falloff is just a way of dialling this into the fretwork as a controlled extension of existing useful bow.

More traditionally-styled guitars - like Les Pauls, PRS' and acoustics - possess heels starting at or before the mid-point of the strung length and being thickest a couple of frets higher up. A smidge of falloff on those is useful from where the heel stiffens the neck onwards - 15th on an LP for example. A modern neck-through ESP, Jackson, etc. with a sculpted heel right up at the end of the fretwork won't benefit unless you wanted to kiss the top 2-4 for luck. A very big difference that I feel needs illustrating.

Bolt-ons can be an added complication with humping necks around the heel. I would guess that the neck tension jig would be useful for defretting and compensating this out of the fretwork (or even the board) if you can reliably simulate neck deformation. Can they?

I might add that a kindness to the owner and whoever might maintain the guitar in the future would be to make note of the falloff. Shame that guitars don't really come with service logbooks like cars tend to. A subsequent - possibly less-experienced - tech that doesn't read the existence of the falloff might interpret it as a hump in the board or fretwork before proceeding to level the whole lot off unnecessarily....much to the detriment of the remaining fret height and the owner's wallet.

[RestorationAD]

+1 everything Carl said.

Now for my take. You are doing it wrong.

You are making this way to complicated.

Make the neck straight. Adjust the truss rod to a neutral position but take up the slack (right as you see it move the neck stop)

True the fretboard as flat as humanly possible, no relief, no drop off. Follow the path of the strings with the straight sanding block. In order to do this by hand you must support the back of the neck as the pressure from you pushing on the sanding blocks might bow the neck. Check the straightness along the path of the strings using a precision straight edge (rulers are not straight). Blow the dust off and look for daylight under the straight edge. If you see light try again.

Make sure the fret slots are the right depth (a hair deeper than the tang of the fret) because large hollows under frets are tone suckers. Blow the dust out of them and then use a depth gauge to check them and clean any packed dust in.

Fret it carefully. Don't drive a fret too deep or leave one too high. This is why I use a 1-ton press with brass cauls so I can carefully seat the frets. When you eyeball down the neck they should all look uniform in height.

String it for a day tuned to pitch.

Remove the strings, carefully support the neck and tape up the fretboard.

Dress the frets. Ron Kirn explains this pretty well however he forgot to tape the fretboard and he needs a real buffer

Buff the frets to a high polish on a nice buffing wheel with some nice rouge.

Throw out the neck jig.

Use the space for a beer fridge.

Stop sending Stew Mac your money.

Write Dan Erlewine a letter telling him he is doing it wrong.

\m/

[SwedishLuthier]

both pouring tha gasoline and throwing a zippo into the puddle here...

I mostly agree to that. However a neck jig use very helpful when doing repair jobs on factory made necks that twist and such. However, on a new carefully made neck made from good material, I have never had a use for my neck jig or have had to use the "Rick Turner" method (what I mostly use today, in favor over the neck jig)

[Prostheta]

Green buffing compound is better for stainless steel frets....the others won't really touch it at any speed or get it through to the shininess you desire!

[RestorationAD]

both pouring tha gasoline and throwing a zippo into the puddle here...

I mostly agree to that. However a neck jig use very helpful when doing repair jobs on factory made necks that twist and such. However, on a new carefully made neck made from good material, I have never had a use for my neck jig or have had to use the "Rick Turner" method (what I mostly use today, in favor over the neck jig)

+1 on neck jig useful for repairs.

Peter I believe I had mentioned that in the tools section as well.

[madhattr88]

+1 everything Carl said.

Now for my take. You are doing it wrong.

You are making this way to complicated.

Make the neck straight. Adjust the truss rod to a neutral position but take up the slack (right as you see it move the neck stop)

True the fretboard as flat as humanly possible, no relief, no drop off. Follow the path of the strings with the straight sanding block. In order to do this by hand you must support the back of the neck as the pressure from you pushing on the sanding blocks might bow the neck. Check the straightness along the path of the strings using a precision straight edge (rulers are not straight). Blow the dust off and look for daylight under the straight edge. If you see light try again.

Make sure the fret slots are the right depth (a hair deeper than the tang of the fret) because large hollows under frets are tone suckers. Blow the dust out of them and then use a depth gauge to check them and clean any packed dust in.

Fret it carefully. Don't drive a fret too deep or leave one too high. This is why I use a 1-ton press with brass cauls so I can carefully seat the frets. When you eyeball down the neck they should all look uniform in height.

String it for a day tuned to pitch.

Remove the strings, carefully support the neck and tape up the fretboard.

Dress the frets. Ron Kirn explains this pretty well however he forgot to tape the fretboard and he needs a real buffer

Buff the frets to a high polish on a nice buffing wheel with some nice rouge.

Throw out the neck jig.

Use the space for a beer fridge.

Stop sending Stew Mac your money.

Write Dan Erlewine a letter telling him he is doing it wrong.

\m/

i made the neck-string tension jig. Trust me, i am cheap, i would never spend $300+ on that Dan Erlewine thing.

so what u are telling me is, your fingerboard and frets are perfectly straight when it is "stringless" and the truss rod is in the neutral position?

the neck will be concave when strung up....do u use the rod to straighten it back??? how do u add relief at the 8th fret area?

i've done this method before, and did not like the results.... it created a "hump" at the 14th-16th frets. could never get low action after that.

[RestorationAD]

i made the neck-string tension jig. Trust me, i am cheap, i would never spend $300+ on that Dan Erlewine thing.

I saw that and I thought your design was pretty sound. Again I am not saying you shouldn't have a jig. I am saying in my opinion it is for repairs on vintage necks where you have no control over the construction.

I used to use one all the time when I was re-fretting vintage instruments.

so what u are telling me is, your fingerboard and frets are perfectly straight when it is "stringless" and the truss rod is in the neutral position?

Yes. Remember I use modern double action trussrods like the ones from Allied/ALLPARTS/WDMusic. I do not ever use old style compression rod, Stew Mac Hot Rods, or any other type of rod. I have found all other rods to have what I would consider to be fatal flaws.

the neck will be concave when strung up....do u use the rod to straighten it back???

If a neck I built needs more than a 1/16 of a turn of the trussrod to straighten it is a _fail_. I will cut it up and put it in a trash barrel (or give it to a family member).

I use this technique on laminated necks and one piece necks alike.

No I don't use carbon fiber rods.

I do use a modern double action trussrod that is very sensitive.

Most of the time the slight backbow caused by the fret tangs is just enough so that the neck is perfectly straight when strung up. Usually after about 6 months my necks need a 1/16 of a turn. Then they usually need season adjustment depending on where you live.

how do u add relief at the 8th fret area?

I don't. I run my necks almost perfectly straight. You can barely fit a piece of notebook paper under the 12th fret if you lay a straight edge along the neck when strung up.

I consider relief at the 8th fret to be _wives tales_ and old school ideas. No need for relief on a modern guitar. A perfectly straight neck is the only goal.

I did not come to this conclusion lightly. I spent years trying to perfect the relief on the bass side vs almost straight on the treble side. What I have found 100s of necks later is that the relief inherent in a straight neck from the string tension is perfect. Make the neck straight and let physics do what they do.

i've done this method before, and did not like the results.... it created a "hump" at the 14th-16th frets. could never get low action after that.

Sorry never had a "hump" using this process on new necks.

However I also do not do repairs anymore nor do I try to reproduce vintage instruments where this technique was employed.

Trying to predict how a neck will act and compensate for it by doing something silly like adding relief to the fretboard no longer sound like a good idea to me. I am not smart enough to calculate how much a neck will move or flex under tension. In my opinion it was not a better technique but a bad idea propagated through the ages by tradition.

Take all of this advice with a grain of salt as it is my opinion, a process and idea that I have arrived at after 20+ years of building guitars.

[madhattr88]

This is excellent advice. Thank u for sharing.

My next build, I will do exactly what u do.

After reading your post, it looks like I need to start using different truss rods. I've been using the 2-way hot rod from stew Mac (the red wrapped one). Maybe thats my problem. Can u post a link to the ones u use? Thanks again!!!

[RestorationAD]

Please practice first as I am not sure your trussrod is the issue. Getting a fretboard perfectly flat by hand takes some practice. It is very easy to make humps and bumps in neck with 120grit and a long sanding block. Any rocking motion or using too much pressure can cause issues.

I usually use the ALLPARTS Double Trussrod.

[guitar2005]

I always get the fretboard as flat as possible and use the best straightedge to check it as I'm radiusing and flattening it.

I then incorporate a bit of fallout at the end of the neck, typically around the 17th fret to the end. The amount of fallout is slight, less than half a mm.

I find that helps in getting wide bends sound clean higher up on the fretboard.

In terms of backbow being induced when fretting, that should not happen. Make sure your slots are the proper dimension and clean them before fretting.

[guitar2005]

If a neck I built needs more than a 1/16 of a turn of the trussrod to straighten it is a _fail_. I will cut it up and put it in a trash barrel (or give it to a family member).

However I also do not do repairs anymore nor do I try to reproduce vintage instruments where this technique was employed.

Trying to predict how a neck will act and compensate for it by doing something silly like adding relief to the fretboard no longer sound like a good idea to me. I am not smart enough to calculate how much a neck will move or flex under tension. In my opinion it was not a better technique but a bad idea propagated through the ages by tradition.

Take all of this advice with a grain of salt as it is my opinion, a process and idea that I have arrived at after 20+ years of building guitars.

Regarding the truss rod turns - it depends on the TR.

In terms of relief, depending on the guitarists style, more or less relief may be needed. Personally, I have guitars that are setup almost flat and others that have quite a bit of relief. Why? Different guitars for different styles, sounds, music pick attack.

[RestorationAD]

If a neck I built needs more than a 1/16 of a turn of the trussrod to straighten it is a _fail_. I will cut it up and put it in a trash barrel (or give it to a family member).

However I also do not do repairs anymore nor do I try to reproduce vintage instruments where this technique was employed.

Trying to predict how a neck will act and compensate for it by doing something silly like adding relief to the fretboard no longer sound like a good idea to me. I am not smart enough to calculate how much a neck will move or flex under tension. In my opinion it was not a better technique but a bad idea propagated through the ages by tradition.

Take all of this advice with a grain of salt as it is my opinion, a process and idea that I have arrived at after 20+ years of building guitars.

Regarding the truss rod turns - it depends on the TR.

In terms of relief, depending on the guitarists style, more or less relief may be needed. Personally, I have guitars that are setup almost flat and others that have quite a bit of relief. Why? Different guitars for different styles, sounds, music pick attack.

+1

I think I need to clarify. A straight neck is the best place to start. Trying to add relief to a neck by sanding is a bad idea.

Adding relief with the trussrod on a straight neck with the trussrod is the perfect way to do it.

In most cases if a neck is not straight to begin with it can never be straight.

[Prostheta]

I would further emphasise your last sentence by saying, "In virtually 100% of all cases if a neck is not straight to begin with it can only be dialled in between bad and worse".

Interestingly, Warwick/Framus have made their necks so that string tension and rod counteracting force is biased more towards the nut end. It makes sense since open notes will have the greatest potential deflection - and hence higher relief - compared to higher notes which do not require as much. The basic parabolic relief model is a good one but is definitely not perfect. Fretted instruments are by their very nature a set of compromises anyway, and there is plenty for us to bitch and disagree about until we reach the grave/furnace/seabed/wood chipper.

[demonx]

I won't bother writing out my whole process as its similar to what RAD already described. I will however be doing a fret level and dress today and I will be filming it for part 7 of my current video set.

A few important notes though.

Most people think they're getting the board flat/straight at the radius stage when they're really not. Took me a long time (years) to realise mine weren't as good as they could be when I thought they were perfect. I now use a longer radius block and harsher grits of paper. Also control of the block, getting it straight is a major player as well.

A lot of people think that if they mark the frets with texta and level then it had to be flat. It'll only be as flat as you set the supports under the neck, otherwise you're creating waves when you think its level.

Hammering/pressing the frets is an art form on its own. Neal Moser once told me that you'll never get the hang of it until you've done a hundred fret jobs. He uses that hundred number to do with most things when talking about experience building guitars.

The thing is he's probably right, I haven't built a hundred of my iwn brand guitars yet but I've probably done way more than a hundred fret jobs when including my refurb/repair days and I can tell you that as the numbers rise you start to nut out little things that make a massive difference.

Little things like feathering in the frets rather than smashing them in. Little things like hitting the fret in the exact right spot every time so its not moving around wrecking your fret slot. Little things like getting neater at filing and better at levelling all come with numbers. The more you do the better you get.

I still have my first ever fret job here. Its on an old 80's guitar neck and it looks like a crime scene.

[guitar2005]

I think I need to clarify. A straight neck is the best place to start. Trying to add relief to a neck by sanding is a bad idea.

Adding relief with the trussrod on a straight neck with the trussrod is the perfect way to do it.

In most cases if a neck is not straight to begin with it can never be straight.

Exactly... and to go even further, when under string tension, you never know exactly how it will behave