DandHcustoms Posted February 7, 2014 Report Share Posted February 7, 2014 I'm looking to build a set of pick ups similar to BKP's aftermaths/ juggernauts. Does anyone have any idea on winds and wire gauge used? Also where can I order rods/slugs similar to what they use? Thanks for your comments Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted February 11, 2014 Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 Surprisingly, this is perhaps the incorrect way of approaching copying a design for a pickup. From what I understand, you should work from the tone of the pickup backwards? Having all of the ingredients to hand doesn't instantly mean it will cook itself if you see what I mean. What is your level of experience in pickup winding? I think somebody like SwedishLuthier or RestorationAD will be good people to ask. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DandHcustoms Posted February 11, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 I'm looking for similar sound to those pickups. I've never tried to wind my own before just looking to get into it. Thanks for the help! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted February 11, 2014 Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 No problem :-) There are a lot more variables to consider. I'll leave this for the more experienced spinners to detail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DandHcustoms Posted February 11, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 From what I've read online thicker gauge wire and fewer wraps will give me more low end and a thiner wire with more wraps for more of a Berger middle range? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwedishLuthier Posted February 14, 2014 Report Share Posted February 14, 2014 I have a bit of experience of pickup winding. Please don't take this wrong but do not, repeat do not, expect the first ten or so pickups to sound good. You need to wind about that amount of pickups to learn to get consistent result. And to copy a design (given that you know all the ingredients) you need to be able to produce pickups in a consistent way. I had to make some 10-15 pickups before I was reasonable satisfied with the results. Having a look at the actual objekts of your desire: https://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/main/pickups.php?cat=humbuckers&sub=contemporary&pickup=aftermath and https://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/main/pickups.php?cat=humbuckers&sub=contemporary&pickup=juggernaut I notice that they are quite different, sound vise. What do you really want to achieve? My initial guess is that you like the looks... Now to the actual question. What strikes me first in regards of construction of these pickups are that the magnet config of both bridge versions are very similar to the old Gibson Dirty Fingers in that they have three magnets instead of the usual single, central "traditional" magnet. This means they have the usual magnet plus two outer magnets. Like this original Gibbo DF: It is highly unlikely that you are able to find magnets that exactly match this configuration, thus making it almost impossible to recreate this pickup. Should you on the other hand succeed in that department there is really nothing special here but a high output, overwound pickup with allen head screw instead of traditional (mostly cosmetic difference), wound to something in the range of 7000-8000 turns of 43 AWG wire, all other stuff pretty standard. Nothing fancy really. Except for the looks... You can get all the parts for this build here: http://www.mojotone.com/guitar-parts/Humbucker-Parts-List Pick this magnet: http://www.mojotone.com/guitar-parts/Bar-Magnets/Mojotone-Ceramic-8-Bar-Magnet-2-95L-196W-500T#.Uv5EXnkrZ0Y in combination with two of those: http://www.mojotone.com/guitar-parts/Bar-Magnets/Ceramic-8-Bar-Magnet-2-35L-x-250W-x-120T#.Uv5EhXkrZ0Y Go with standard pole screws: http://www.mojotone.com/guitar-parts/Humbucker-Parts-List/Mojotone-Humbucker-P90-Polepieces-Nickel-6#.Uv5F3XkrZ0Y It will get you a decent approximation of the original Gibson DF magnet configuration (which I am totally convinced is what BKP have copied). Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwedishLuthier Posted February 14, 2014 Report Share Posted February 14, 2014 From what I've read online thicker gauge wire and fewer wraps will give me more low end and a thiner wire with more wraps for more of a Berger middle range? Don't believe everything you read online... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DandHcustoms Posted February 14, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 14, 2014 Like I said I'm just starting to get interested in winding my own pick ups. I want a lot of mids and lows, but have a good articulation for chords. From the sound clips I've heard online they have a very similar sound to me, but the juggernaut has a bit more of a voice to it. Thank you so much for the help! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DandHcustoms Posted February 14, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 14, 2014 Also is it correct that you under wind a neck position pup? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted February 14, 2014 Report Share Posted February 14, 2014 Partially correct, yes. The output of a neck pickup is higher because the string can achieve a larger deflection toward the centre of the string compared to the ends. I have to say - and this is completely personal opinion - that I can't understand the obsession with high output pickups. It really has become almost a market of itself. The thing is, to make a pickup high output you need to either overwind it to hell, go for particularly strong magnets or monkey with the gauge. There are some great high output pickups out there, but it really is a balancing act to get something that doesn't sound sterile and ice-picky (ceramics spring to mind), dark and muddy (too overwound) or just plain badly balanced. I love my metal, I truly do. Despite people having a massive hardon for valve amps pushed by high output pickups, I still think that the old school approach of a boost between the guitar and the amp is a better solution than hot-rodded pickups which without a doubt become one-trick ponies when they are geared for high outputs. If you're Kerry King then great. One (lack of) tone fits all. I advocate lower output pickups with either a pre-amp boost, pedal or something to produce the high input in front of the amp (if that is what you are after) rather than pouring all that into a pickup which ultimately suffers from a lack of versatility. That's just my opinion though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwedishLuthier Posted February 15, 2014 Report Share Posted February 15, 2014 Also is it correct that you under wind a neck position pup? Well, not necessary. What I do is that I balance the output, meaning that if I have a high output pickup, I might make a normal output neck pickup, or one that is just a tad over wound. If I however make a more standard output bridge pickup, the neck pickup often ends up a bit under wound. I totally agree with Carl, High output pickups became "the thing" in the early 70-s starting with the DiMarzio Distortion and similar pickups. Back in those days the amps didn't have that much gain and you needed a high output pickup to drive the input stage of the amp to get a lot of distortion. Today the amps have much more gain available and the need for a high output pickup just to get the distortion is obsolete. OTOH, a overwound pickup have a distinkt sound that many people like. Me, I prefer my pickups in the range of slightly under wound to just a tad over wound. Often SCs benefit for a bit more "meat" but HBs kan really shine and let so much more of the overtones and sweetness of the string come through if they are a bit on the "cooler" side. But really, that can aslo be achieved, to some extent at least, with different "tricks" on a high output pickup. For the request of "lots of mids and lows" that is really a bit of contra-dictionary to the wish of good articulation. If you overwound a pickup the treble always take a bit of a hit. To counter that you can play with factors like unbalanced coils (wind one up to 10% hotter) or try to reduce any metal, magnetic or un-magnetic in the proximity of the pickups (i.e. covers, base plates etc). Check out the fibre base plates Mojo sells. And go easy on the unbalancing of the coils for the bridge pickup. That is often more beneficial on the neck pickups. Carl, if you think ceramic magnets sound ice-picky, let me share a trade secret: "High power" AlNiCo 8 magnets. The output and "attitude" of ceramic magnets, but with a bit "sweeter" high end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted February 15, 2014 Report Share Posted February 15, 2014 RestorationAD wound me a pair of A8 buckers for my RD bass a while back. I've still to get that one back onto the bench (via a car, bench not at home) to finesse her but certainly it has more kick than I expected. Ceramics really suck at the fretboard slapback when playing hard fingerstyle whereas these "appreciate" it. Yeah. Ceramics are a "cheap man's output". I'll feed back into this one at a later date because I've meant to write about this. An interesting bass. DandHcustoms - if you're really fired up about winding, set yourself a budget that is equal to a few sets of commercial pickups. That will buy you materials and equipment to burn your way through the first few unsatisfactory winds and work on improving from wind to wind. Bit of a loss at first but that is probably the approach you need before you can start tailoring. Writing off the cost of a few sets in order to reach the target. I looked into taking up winding myself but saw the immediate investment and learning curve as a bit steep. Still, within reach if you spunk up the cash and can carry the hit of less-than-satisfactory winds for the first few I guess. Winding just a pair is never economically viable. You need to be winding a small crapload of usable pups to even justify them being more economical than boutique or "normal" purchases. Just a spool of wire costs a significant fraction of a cheap SD pickup! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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