Further thoughts on fountain-pen ink

[Andyjr1515]

Hi

Following on from Norris's build thread and earlier post in this section, I thought it might be of interest to some of you of my experiences and thoughts of the pro's and con's of using fountain pen inks as stains for guitars.

The whole fountain pen ink thing came about because getting decent non-wood coloured stains in UK is surprisingly difficult.  Stewmac don't ship their spirit stains to UK and the equivalent types that are available here are either very expensive or are very limited in the colour range.

Indeed, the first guitar I tried a colour finish on, a Warmoth flamed maple strat body, I resorted to Dylon fabric dye!  It worked quite well but was messy (mixed from powder with a mix of water and methylated spirits) and, again, pretty limited in colour.

When I was asked to make a 'fancy' red body to fit onto a Hank Marvin signature strat neck, I experimented with a number of dyes but then tried a red calligraphy ink.

It worked!

Since then, I have used inks for a number of projects and have come to broad conclusions in terms of pro's and con's.   If I've sorted the technology out right, there should be a few examples below but in terms of factors:

Pluses:

• Cheap
• Huge Range of colours.  Because ALL stains are affected by the wood colour and type, this is important
• Possible to get small quantity samples to try out on scrap bits of appropriate wood
• Very easy to apply.  I just wipe on with a cloth.  I don't dilute at all.
• Very easy to create multi-shade and / or bursts
• Very forgiving for progressive saturation or end-grain emphasis
• In my experience, un-reactive with most finishes

Minuses

• A concern by some folk over fading.  I'll cover that below...it is not something I have had any issues with.
• .... well, actually, that's pretty much it, really!  I suppose should add that they  are generally water-based so will raise the grain a tad more than spirit stains but, as I said, decent ranges of colours of spirit stains are very difficult to find in UK

So, about the fading concern.  Clearly, I can only speak from a bit of logic and my own experience but there's loads about fading and non-fading of pen ink on paper on the internet and most wood is similar in basic composition to most 'ordinary' writing papers.  The thread that was posted on Norris's recent thread is VERY interesting.  However, generalising mercilessly:

• Calligraphy inks are designed to be readable for at least 500 and sometimes over 1000 years.  I've seen the Lindesfarne Gospels...they are as bright as when they were written in 700 ad.  Great for reds and blacks but relatively limited colour range
• Permanent inks are designed for legal documents - again, they have to be readable over at least 100 years and usually much more (think long-term leasehold or land ownership documents).  Again, relatively limited colours - blacks, blues, reds and greens are relatively easy to find
• Washable inks - these have the greatest ranges of colours but, as the link in Norris's thread shows, a small number of the specific colours do have fade issues

So lastly onto the acid test - what have I found.

• Red is supposed to be the tricky one.  The first shot below (strat) is calligraphy ink on myrtle veneer.  It has hung on a wall next to a window facing the south in full daylight and sunlight for the past 5 years and is still this colour.
• The second shot is an SG-type with burl maple and, again, red calligraphy ink.  Kept out of its case, 3 years old, no fading
• The third (strat) is a standard washable ink in red on burl birch veneer.  Only been done about a year but has hung on my wall near a window for all that time.  I took off the scratchplate about a month ago and no fading evident
• The fourth (Westone bass) is green washable ink on burl birch veneer.  The sunburst has been achieved by adding a tiny amount of black ink to the green.  Haven't seen this one for a while, but no fading reported by its owner 
• The fifth is turquoise and green mix on a darkish figured maple veneer (although this shot shows mainly the same ink on the basswood sides).  Built for a forum fun competition ("take a cheapo kit and do something with it") and now my main gigging guitar.  Kept on a guitar stand in a light room since spring 2014.  Took the scratchplate off recently - no fading.

So, so far, I haven't had an issue.  BUT I am basically a hobbyist - and always explain that to people I sometimes build projects for.  If I was producing commercially, I would need to be sure and would do proper controlled tests ....but I'd do that on some of the commercially available stains too 

 

Hope this is of interest and not too rambly.  

Andy 

 

 

[ScottR]

Good info and very nice work!

SR

[Andyjr1515]

Thanks, Scott 

Andy

[Prostheta]

The veneer on the Westone has always stuck in my mind as something totally insane. Even Luis' (@killemall8) seems to have rational middle-of-the-road veneers on hand compared to that insanity.

I thought long and hard about my opinions on inks. The problem only comes down to a lack of good information. There's two ways we can change this, and that is either by arduous testing and analysis on workpieces or by simply talking to the manufacturers. If I remember (my list of to-do's is insane) I should strike up a dialogue with the guys that make those inks. You can't argue with the results, and if they are economical, stable in the long term and provide more interesting alternatives to what we normally us then we should encourage their use.

After all, normalisation has to start somewhere.

[Prostheta]

I guess the question has to be asked.....what colour are their blacks? Golden black or purple black?

[Prostheta]

Or "blueack"?

[Andyjr1515]

14 hours ago, Prostheta said:

The veneer on the Westone has always stuck in my mind as something totally insane. Even Luis' (@killemall8) seems to have rational middle-of-the-road veneers on hand compared to that insanity.

I thought long and hard about my opinions on inks. The problem only comes down to a lack of good information. There's two ways we can change this, and that is either by arduous testing and analysis on workpieces or by simply talking to the manufacturers. If I remember (my list of to-do's is insane) I should strike up a dialogue with the guys that make those inks. You can't argue with the results, and if they are economical, stable in the long term and provide more interesting alternatives to what we normally us then we should encourage their use.

After all, normalisation has to start somewhere.

It's a great veneer, isn't it . 

I think you are right - the only way to know for sure about colour fastness is to test it.  If I get round to it over the next couple of months, I'll do some samples, including some commercially available stains, and try it over, say, a year?  I'll put the controls in our unused and pitch black cellar, and the main samples on a south facing window cill, then this time next year, compare them...

As I've said, from a hobbyist 'fit for purpose' point of view, it's not something I'm concerned about, but on a broader level, it would be interesting to know.

[Andyjr1515]

14 hours ago, Prostheta said:

I guess the question has to be asked.....what colour are their blacks? Golden black or purple black?

I actually don't use blacks very often, but do I remember the paper chromatography experiments in school where you put a drop of ink on some filter paper and then dip the end in water and the rising moisture separates the dyes?  Might be fun to try it  

my recollection was that the readily available permanent black ink had a tiny bit of yellow and a tiny bit of red in it.  Mind you, that was nearly fifty years ago...

[Prostheta]

Good call. I recall that experiment now, and it'd certainly be fun to try out. Black simply isn't black in most cases for most things. For example, many high-end car makers add a small-but-significant amount of blue to the black; it then reflects differently and looks darker in daylight. Funny how you can fool our perceptions.

[Prostheta]

20 minutes ago, Andyjr1515 said:

It's a great veneer, isn't it . 

I think you are right - the only way to know for sure about colour fastness is to test it.  If I get round to it over the next couple of months, I'll do some samples, including some commercially available stains, and try it over, say, a year?  I'll put the controls in our unused and pitch black cellar, and the main samples on a south facing window cill, then this time next year, compare them...

As I've said, from a hobbyist 'fit for purpose' point of view, it's not something I'm concerned about, but on a broader level, it would be interesting to know.

 

Inks seem to have more requirement for stability in the longer term than the dyes used on guitars. It might even be the case that inks are of a higher standard than the dyes "we" use for fastness. Definitely a good case for future investigation.

[Andyjr1515]

51 minutes ago, Prostheta said:

 

Inks seem to have more requirement for stability in the longer term than the dyes used on guitars. It might even be the case that inks are of a higher standard than the dyes "we" use for fastness. Definitely a good case for future investigation.

Well, certainly calligraphy and permanent inks.  Maybe less so with the washables, which is where the greater ranges of colours tend to be.  Certainly worth a bit more empirical evidence

[Norris]

I have got my sample on a south facing window sill now, although quite how much light it's likely to get in these winter months is debatable. A chap I know was going to lend me a sunlight-simulation lamp - I don't know what he usually uses it for but it certainly doesn't help his short term memory (  ). You can only ask/remind so many times before you give up!

4 hours ago, Andyjr1515 said:

I actually don't use blacks very often, but do I remember the paper chromatography experiments in school where you put a drop of ink on some filter paper and then dip the end in water and the rising moisture separates the dyes?  Might be fun to try it  

Oh yes - school science lessons using alcohol on mashed up grass to separate out the chlorophyll

[Andyjr1515]

53 minutes ago, Norris said:

Oh yes - school science lessons using alcohol on mashed up grass to separate out the chlorophyll

Yes - I seem to remember that the mush was green, and the separated colour up the filter paper was...well..green.  I'll admit it wasn't the most exciting of experiments 

[Prostheta]

I certainly did not permaborrow a Liebig condensor to distill my own moonshine. In addition to the usual hydrogen balloon on the ceiling and burning peanuts to ascertain calorific value.