pan_kara Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 Hi everybody, and Happy New Year! Long time no see... I'm trying to ramp up a new batch of builds but I want to finally finish Etna first. see this: well I thought she was all done, even played a show with it, but when I wanted to do final proper setup I ran back into something that was bothering me earlier on: the Hannes bridge sounds weird. Especially the higher strings have a weird "dead" sound, kind of like when the string has a "kink" close to the bridge. There's also a tone to the strings like as if they were attached to a match box, for lack of a better explanation. If you know what I mean. I tried to track this issue down but I'm running out of ideas: I need help. Here's what I have figured out so far: - the issue seems to be coming from some sort of "looseness" in the saddles. I can feel them vibrate when I pluck the strings - I tried lowering the saddles and raising them as high as possible. I originally though it's something about the saddle edge that's not right and changing the angle by raising the saddles up should cure (=diagnose) it. It doesn't. - I tried tuning the strings to higher pitch to have more force pushing down on the saddles. Maybe there is a slight improvement, but it's very small. - Supporting the string with something hard between the bridge and the bridge pickup makes the guitar sound normal (->the problem IS in the bridge) - I took all the strings off and put three G or B strings in different places. They seem to all suffer from the same problem (->it's neither the saddle nor the position that's causing this) - Finally I just clamped a saddle down with a clamp, this appears to improve the situation to a point when the tone becomes acceptable. I have yet to try to do spectral analysis of the sound, maybe that will show me what's going on there. Has anybody had similar problems with this bridge (or others?)? Any ideas on what this could be? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottR Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 I've got two of those and haven't had the issues you describe. That being said, I'm not a huge fan. They look great and feel great, but the saddles can move left or right with hand pressure. I suspect it is inherent in the design that isolates the strings from outside vibration intentionally. My ear is likely not as discerning as yours as well. SR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pan_kara Posted January 5, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 I'm pretty sure you'd hear it Scott. It really sounds weird. Problem is I can't see anything wrong with my bridge, it looks more like a design flaw or some strange mistake in my build. Though I remember I was having doubts about this bridge already when I tried it in the test where I tried to "measure" the impact of bridge on "tone". That never converged since I coudn't see any pattern in the data that I had, its possible that the weird properties of this hannes are the cause. I just never found the time to do another set of measurements with different hardware (or different guitar). So anyway - while writing the earlier post I realized that I can still try the spectral analysis route. Maybe that will tell me something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 Hi Piotr! Nice seeing you after such a break. Congratulations on all of the great work you guys at the CMS experiment are continuing to do. The design of the Hannes doesn't look like it has anything that is not under tension when in use. Are the intonation lash springs compressed properly? I doubt they would be rattling nor resonating. Those cap screws at the front of each saddle look a little odd. Without laying my hands on a unit I couldn't really say one way or another. I'm interested in the answer myself though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottR Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 The screws in front of the saddles are for saddle height adjustment and are one of my biggest complaints about this design. They are directly under the strings and are fairly wide. You have to de-tension the string a lot to move it out of the way to make an adjustment. SR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pan_kara Posted January 6, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2016 Hey Carl, thanks! Its good to be back, hopefully for longer Yes, the screws in front are not the best idea, I agree. Anyway, I spend a long evening yesterday on this, basically the spectrogram shows that in the higher harmonics the string produces a few notes close to the actual harmonic note, causing some weird interference pulsing (like tuning two strings to each other but with only one string playing) and general sustain issues. I found one stupid mistake of mine also - it turns out that the bridge was a little loose since the screws holding it down to the body blocked not because I pressed it down hard enough, but because I screwed them in as deep as they'd go into the bridge. For some reason I hadn't noticed this earlier. I cut the screws today in the morning and reinstalled a few strings .. seems to be better now, though I'm not sure it's completely fine. But if the effect is still there, at least it's less obvious. I'll look again in the evening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pan_kara Posted January 7, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2016 Ok, looks like that was it. I could test this hypothesis by loosening the screws and seeing if the effect comes back, maybe I'll do it when I get back home (just thought of that now while typing this post). I've put all the strings on and played a little, the conclusions are basically as in the post above - the weird tone in the treble strings is gone to the point that the guitar is actually usable. I still think I hear some weirdness especially up beyond the 12th fret .. dunno. I think I can safely close this project soon, just need one small change in the electronics and a proper set-up and I can move on. I'll post updates in the main thread for this guitar. And since a guitar thread with no pictures would suck, let me close this one with one live pic of Etna in action: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted January 11, 2016 Report Share Posted January 11, 2016 Any updates on this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pan_kara Posted January 11, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2016 I just tried to loosen the screws and indeed it becomes worse again. So the most obvious effect was due to that. I'm still hearing some weird tone in the strings, but that can be due to anything in the guitar's construction at this stage or even the strings themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted January 11, 2016 Report Share Posted January 11, 2016 Huh. A real conundrum. I bet it's almost keeping you awake at night, eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted January 11, 2016 Report Share Posted January 11, 2016 Talking of which, how are those two signal bumps panning out? Heavier Higgs maybe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pan_kara Posted January 13, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2016 Re the bumps - we'll have to wait until Spring, when we fire the LHC back up so there's gonna be pretty much nothing new until then. Still, the possibility that there's something new there is pretty exciting! It can be many things, heavier higgs is just one of them. The good thing is that if it turns out to be real, whatever it is - it will be a completely new thing. Now, the guitar. I did spend another evening on it. I went back and forth between Etna and my Mayones and decided that some of the strange tone in Etna is simply due to there being more high frequencies in the notes, that I wasn't used to. Then I played her plugged in a bit to see if the tone through the pickups is also strange, and I almost convinced myself again that all is well. Until I listened to the G string (which is the D string a the guitar is tuned down to baritone). That one above the 14th fret sounds super-weird. I tried to see what is resonating with the string, and I thought it was the truss rod, or the neck itself (I can feel it vibrate)... Then as a last resort I took the string off (it's an unwound 22) and put a wound 23 (or 24) there. Phew. All good now. So maybe it was just the string? It is a little bent in a few places ... dunno. Right now the sound is ok all over the place. I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted January 13, 2016 Report Share Posted January 13, 2016 Huh, so more experiments are going to be needed to be done on that one? I figured that a lot of the heavy lifting might be found in the masses of existing data, however I guess would act more as a teaser than providing any proof as such. Smash away! A bent string can do all manner of crazy stuff. Does the Hannes respond well to string stretching when you install new ones? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pan_kara Posted January 13, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2016 The Hannes seems to be behaving ok now. What kind of response to string stretching do you mean? Some tuning hiccups due to the string being put under tension for the first time on that guitar? I just changed one string so there's not much happening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted January 13, 2016 Report Share Posted January 13, 2016 I've not used one before so I am unsure about the free string length beyond the saddle. Usually when I put new strings on different instruments, stretching drops it a fair amount on some bridges and tuner setups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pan_kara Posted January 13, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2016 Its a thru-body string anchoring design so there is something like 5cm of string behind the saddle. Tuning up does require a few go's, I can't tell how stable it is after that, I need to get a feeling of this guitar over time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted January 13, 2016 Report Share Posted January 13, 2016 How did the bends get in the strings? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pan_kara Posted January 13, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2016 it could have been many things since I think I've been using the same set of strings since I first assembled the body and the neck together. At least one of the bends was around the 14-16 fret problem area, maybe I pressed a loose-ish string down with a capo too hard at some point or something ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted January 13, 2016 Report Share Posted January 13, 2016 In the absence of other potential issues, I think that could be it you know. Are you sure that the kink wasn't buzzing against the upper frets a little? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pan_kara Posted January 13, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2016 yea, I suspect it could have been the kink. or other smaller ones in other places. don't think it was buzzing against the frets, but having a kink e.g. near the saddle does produce a similar sound - the sound wave bounces in all sorts of funny waves in the string. I should probably just get a fresh set of strings and put them on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pan_kara Posted January 26, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2016 I'm beginning to think this guitar is cursed and I will forever try to make it work and in consequence never build another one. I bought a fresh set of strings and put them on to finally have everything straightened out. Well guess what - the sound was much worse than before, with a strange "paper-y" overtone back in all its glory. I managet to figure out what was causing it. This time it really WAS related to the Hannes, at least. The reason was because the bridge is too much in front (too close to the nut). In order to get proper intonation I had to move the string saddles nearly all the way back. I just now noticed that at some point they start to press against the bridge creating a small lever arm that effectively lifts them up into the air. The back-bottom part of the tusq saddles hits against the metal bridge piece and as the intonation screw pulls the saddle back, the saddle front it raised up. Which causes the saddle to loose contact with the guitar body and vibrate when the string is plucked. I'm fixing this by filing away a bit of the saddle at the back (its completely invisible as its at the bottom of the saddle) but now my electronics are acting up (there is a small thing in there that lights a diode under the piece of Etna in the center of the guitar as I play). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottR Posted January 26, 2016 Report Share Posted January 26, 2016 Did you move the bridge forward of the templates location, because I warned you of the intonation issues I had with my first one? I nearly ran out of screw trying to move the saddles closer to the nut. If so, I'm sorry. SR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pan_kara Posted January 27, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2016 So you tested the other limit of this bridge Scott. Here the limit is hidden - it looks like there is still 2-3mm of room for the saddles to go back, but underneath the sneaky metal plate is already raising them up into the air. Really, with a slightly different shape of the saddle back "wings" it could easily go back by 2mm more. Plus, my action is a bit on the high side at the moment - it's a baritone tuned in drop-A.. I may still need to tweak string gauges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted January 27, 2016 Report Share Posted January 27, 2016 I'm glad you don't have these kinds of problems with the big toys at CERN. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottR Posted January 27, 2016 Report Share Posted January 27, 2016 4 hours ago, pan_kara said: So you tested the other limit of this bridge Scott. Here the limit is hidden - it looks like there is still 2-3mm of room for the saddles to go back, but underneath the sneaky metal plate is already raising them up into the air. Really, with a slightly different shape of the saddle back "wings" it could easily go back by 2mm more. Plus, my action is a bit on the high side at the moment - it's a baritone tuned in drop-A.. I may still need to tweak string gauges I will say that I moved the bridge forward about a 1/8th" on my second Hannes, which was on my horny SS and it intonated nicely, with everything falling right in the middle of the adjustment range. At least the saddle construction makes them easy to modify. SR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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