Newcomer build "22 Magnum"

[Jdogg]

Out of curiosity, how do you handle fretboards with inlays (other than dots obviously)?  I'm assuming this method would chew up the inlays if done before radiusing?

I do like the idea of a machine cut radius but I'm not a particularly huge fan of inlaying on a pre-radiused board (might be the only option in this case tho....?

 

[Skyjerk]

39 minutes ago, Jdogg said:

Out of curiosity, how do you handle fretboards with inlays (other than dots obviously)?  I'm assuming this method would chew up the inlays if done before radiusing?

I do like the idea of a machine cut radius but I'm not a particularly huge fan of inlaying on a pre-radiused board (might be the only option in this case tho....?

 

I always do my inlays after the board is radiused. Its not any more difficult, and knowing where the final surface of the board is makes it easier to know how deep to put them.

This particular fretboard is getting MOP bird inlays similar, but not identical, to PRS birds

I just wedge the fretboard in between two pieces of 1/4" MDF, and I use a dremel with a router-style base to cut the inlay pockets. The dremel base is wider than the fretboard so it sits up on the MDF boards rather than the fretboard itself, so the radiused surface is not an issue.

Since the dremel is suitting on the nice, flat MDF it cuts a nice flat bottom pocket. Easy peasey.

Glue in the inlays (i use clear epoxy mixed with the rosewood dust) and then sand them flush with a radius beam when its fully cured.

Edited December 13, 2016 by Skyjerk

[Jdogg]

Well, that about sum's that up.

is it any more difficult to trace the inlays out with a scribe vs a flat board?  I'm rather tempted to build one of these contraptions but with a few mods so I can use it after the FB is glued to the neck blank....  I think that would make it even more accurate....  spose it's likely not too bad if a pre radius'd board is glued to a flat neck blank...  and nothing moves...  hmmmmm.....  yeah, I think i'mna try it your way...  cuz my way sucks....

 

[Skyjerk]

1 minute ago, Jdogg said:

Well, that about sum's that up.

is it any more difficult to trace the inlays out with a scribe vs a flat board?  I'm rather tempted to build one of these contraptions but with a few mods so I can use it after the FB is glued to the neck blank....  I think that would make it even more accurate....  spose it's likely not too bad if a pre radius'd board is glued to a flat neck blank...  and nothing moves...  hmmmmm.....  yeah, I think i'mna try it your way...  cuz my way sucks....

 

I'm not sure what you mean about tracing inlays with a scribe vs a flat board.

My process is to cover the board with masking tape and place the inlays where I want them and hold em steady with a teeny drop of CA glue. Once in place I use a pencil to trace the outlines. Then I pop the inlays off and go over the traced lines with a scalpel so they get cut into the fretboard. then  I pull off the tape and route the pockets as described above.

With regard to putting an entire neck blank in the jig, keep in mind that the blank would have to be perfectly flat. If one end was thicker than the other then the fretboard would be sitting at an angle and you'd ruin it.

If you DID manage to rig it up so that you could put the whole neck blank in it, you could only ever use neck blanks exactly like that. If you only ever build one kind of guitar I guess that wouldnt be a problem, but what if you ever wanted to do a neck-through-body build? What if you wanted to do a build with a 25.5" scale length and 24 frets, or anything different.

Its a LOT more flexible to radius the fretboard separate from the neck because you arent locked into any particular style of build or neck dimensions. If the concern is about the fretboard moving when you try to glue it on, heres what I do. Clamp the board in place aligned perfectly, then drill a hole (teeny bit) through a fret slot at each end of the board. the hole goes into the neck under the board. Then I remove the board. I stick a round wooden toothpick into the holes on the top of the neck so it sticks up and cut them off so only a small "pin" is sticking up. The fretboard can be fitted onto those pins through the holes drilled previously. At that point I install the frets. The hole I drilled is a tad wider than the actual slot, but the fret covers it completely, Once I have the frets in, I glue it up, press it onto those pins, and clamp it up. The fretboard cant slide anywhere in any direction. Makes clamping it up easy as pie.

Now I've only built 13 guitars so far, so I'm a long way from the final authority on anything, but I always finish the fretboard completely, frets and all, before I glue it on. The one time when I broke down and listened to everyone elses common wisdom and put the frets on after it was glued to the neck, and fretting it forced a back-bow into the neck. I ended up having to remove the fretboard. Everyone said I must have used wire with tangs too thick. Nope. The tangs were the same thickness as the kerf of my saw I actually glued that fretboard right back on again and the bow was gone

Never did it again. I stick with conventional wisdom for most things in lutherie, but I rejected common wisdom for that step and it hasnt gone wrong since.

 

[Jdogg]

23 hours ago, Skyjerk said:

I'm not sure what you mean about tracing inlays with a scribe vs a flat board.

My process is to cover the board with masking tape and place the inlays where I want them and hold em steady with a teeny drop of CA glue. Once in place I use a pencil to trace the outlines. Then I pop the inlays off and go over the traced lines with a scalpel so they get cut into the fretboard. then  I pull off the tape and route the pockets as described above.

With regard to putting an entire neck blank in the jig, keep in mind that the blank would have to be perfectly flat. If one end was thicker than the other then the fretboard would be sitting at an angle and you'd ruin it.

If you DID manage to rig it up so that you could put the whole neck blank in it, you could only ever use neck blanks exactly like that. If you only ever build one kind of guitar I guess that wouldnt be a problem, but what if you ever wanted to do a neck-through-body build? What if you wanted to do a build with a 25.5" scale length and 24 frets, or anything different.

Its a LOT more flexible to radius the fretboard separate from the neck because you arent locked into any particular style of build or neck dimensions. If the concern is about the fretboard moving when you try to glue it on, heres what I do. Clamp the board in place aligned perfectly, then drill a hole (teeny bit) through a fret slot at each end of the board. the hole goes into the neck under the board. Then I remove the board. I stick a round wooden toothpick into the holes on the top of the neck so it sticks up and cut them off so only a small "pin" is sticking up. The fretboard can be fitted onto those pins through the holes drilled previously. At that point I install the frets. The hole I drilled is a tad wider than the actual slot, but the fret covers it completely, Once I have the frets in, I glue it up, press it onto those pins, and clamp it up. The fretboard cant slide anywhere in any direction. Makes clamping it up easy as pie.

Now I've only built 13 guitars so far, so I'm a long way from the final authority on anything, but I always finish the fretboard completely, frets and all, before I glue it on. The one time when I broke down and listened to everyone elses common wisdom and put the frets on after it was glued to the neck, and fretting it forced a back-bow into the neck. I ended up having to remove the fretboard. Everyone said I must have used wire with tangs too thick. Nope. The tangs were the same thickness as the kerf of my saw I actually glued that fretboard right back on again and the bow was gone

Never did it again. I stick with conventional wisdom for most things in lutherie, but I rejected common wisdom for that step and it hasnt gone wrong since.

 

As far as scribing the lines, I'm referring to the curvature of the fretboard.  You technically cant really glue a flat inlay down to a curved board....  apparently this is much less of an issue than I am making it out to be because you seem to be doing it just fine.

For the radius Jig I was thinking about some sort of adjustable height for the middle piece that swings...  couple that with a gauge block of some sort to get it setup at the correct height before you put the router in and it should work fine as long as you can find a way to hold the neck steady without having the clamps get in the way....  does however seem like a lot more work vs your approach...  but the advantage would be a perfectly level fretboard after it's glued to the neck...  perhaps I'm overthinking it as any MINOR leveling after the fretboard is glued down wouldn't be a major issue.......

 

[Skyjerk]

So routing pockets on a radiused board isnt an issue. As you can see I sandwich the board between a couple pieces of MDF and my router sits on that and cuts a nice, flat bottomed pocket.

 

Laying these babies out to scribe around them is a bit more of a PITA

 

[Skyjerk]

Ok, well its a crappy day out and a good time to install the inlays. Frankly this is my least favorite part of building, and these particular inlays are the biggest PITA I've done so far, but thats how it goes if you wanna do more than dots and blocks...

 

Once I lay them out I scribe around them with a compass point. My scalpel and other bladed tools tend to want to follow the grain which pulls it off line sometimes so the conical point of a compass works better for me.

I set it up in between a couple pieces of 1/4" MDF so my dremel base sits flat and cuts a flat pocket even though the board is radiused.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Some folks like to use CA glue (super glue) to glue the inlays down, and then top fill the gaps with rosewood dust and CA, but I prefer to mix up a batch of clear epoxy and mix that with the rosewood dust. I overfill all the pockets, making sure to fill all the little nooks and crannies, and then push the inlays down into the pockets. The squeezeout pushes up from underneath and fills all the gaps completely from the bottom up. Epoxy is a better gap filler than CA and the inlay is completely supported underneath and around all the sides so no gaps or spaces under the inlays.

Sanding this down takes a little longer but I think its a small price to pay for what I believe are more solid inlays.

 

 

Edited December 17, 2016 by Skyjerk

[a2k]

This makes me want to try some more inlaying on my next build. Do you just move the Dremel freehand through the lines you scribed? And what bit are you using?

Thanks for all of the idea sharing in this thread!

[Skyjerk]

9 hours ago, a2k said:

This makes me want to try some more inlaying on my next build. Do you just move the Dremel freehand through the lines you scribed? And what bit are you using?

Thanks for all of the idea sharing in this thread!

Yep. Freehand. This does mean that my pockets are not perfect and there are invariably some small gaps, especially on small, irregularly shaped pieces like these, but the epoxy squishout takes care of those. Maybe someday I'll join the CNC generation and make perfect pockets. My technique tends to restrict any complex shaped inlays to ebony or rosewood boards.

that bit is a 1/32" I bought from stewmac. 

That little piece of blue tape on the bit blows all the dust away as I cut. Before I started doing that I'd have to pause and blow,it away myself, which can leave you hyperventilated :-)

[Skyjerk]

Now that the epoxy has fully cured I can sand the inlays down flush.

 

 

 

Next I use my japanese fret saw to cut the inlays where they crossed the fret slot

 

 

 

 

Next I put in the side dot markers. These are 3/32" MOP dots from Stewmac.

On my first 6 builds or so I drilled by eye and was frustrated because my dots always had one or two that didnt quite get in the right spot. I had seen a video of another builder that used some kind of template to drill his dots, and looking around on line I found a place that sold them. The chump was selling these things for $135.00. That price was ridiculous. No way I was gonna pay that. So I made up my own template in CAD and found a place (Pololu) that had laser cutting service, and they made me up one from my CAD drawing.

They charged me $35.00 to cut my design, so I got what I wanted and saved myself a hundred bucks

 

Anyway, I line the fretboard up flush with the edge of my tablesaw...

 

 

Then clamp my template to the side. I drew this up with 3 scale lengths that cover about 99% of electric guitar builds. 24 3/4, 25, and 25 1/2.

 

Then I just drill with a 3/32" drill bit through the holes.

 

 

 

Perfect alignment.

 

 

The rest is as you would expect. A drop of CA, gently tap in the dot, and sand them flush once the glue has cured.

 

 

and the top. I'm really happy with how these turned out...

 

[Norris]

17 hours ago, Skyjerk said:

That little piece of blue tape on the bit blows all the dust away as I cut. Before I started doing that I'd have to pause and blow,it away myself, which can leave you hyperventilated :-)

Another great tip!

The inlay work looks fantastic

[Skyjerk]

The greatest tip of all time is using masking tape and CA glue instead of double-sided tape.

put a strip of masking tape on each piece where they will contact each other. Make sure the tape is burnishedmdown well

put a,small line of CA glue on one piece of tape and press the parts together and hold pressure till the glue sets. You can speed that part by spraying glue accelerator on the side you didn't put glue on.

 

sounds like crap, but that will,hold your templates 100 times better than double stick tape. It will resist HUGE lateral pressure without comparing apart. But when you pull the pieces directly away from each other it'll come apart pretty easy, and the best part is it leaves no sticky residue.

 

learned that from one,of,your,own over in the U.K., Ben Crowe at Crimson guitars :-) 

[Skyjerk]

k, to wrap up the weekend work, I installed my frets.

I use a fret tang filer from LMII to undercut the fret tang. Undercutting the tang is common on bound fretboards and theres a multitude of different tools people use. I find that this one is the best. Nippers are a bit faster (not that much) but can leave a ridge that may still need to be manually files off. This tool files the tang away completely leaving the undersuide of the fret wire completely flat.

I do this even on fretboards that arent bound because I personally dont care for the look of the side of the tang showing on the edge of the fretboard. So I undercut the wire, and fill the end of the slot with rosewood dust and CA glue and sand it smooth. I think it looks nicer.

 

This is the tang filer....

 

 

 

 

So this fretboard is just sitting on here. Not glued on yet.

 

 

To head off the obvious question, yes. I do install frets before gluing the board to the neck. I've never had a fretboard "move" on me. The way I build my necks makes that very unlikely since I always do multi-laminate with carbon fiber rods. It

Edited December 19, 2016 by Skyjerk

[Mr Natural]

4 hours ago, Skyjerk said:

The greatest tip of all time is using masking tape and CA glue instead of double-sided tape.

sounds like crap, but that will,hold your templates 100 times better than double stick tape. 

learned that from one,of,your,own over in the U.K., Ben Crowe at Crimson guitars :-) 

I agree- this method works well- and I actually learned it from someone years ago on this very forum- my apologies to the member who posted it- its been too long. 

Totally digging that position marker jig you have there- very clever- I know what I want for my birthday present from the kids now. :-)

this is really looking good. cant wait to see it with finish.

[Skyjerk]

Jumping back to before I installed the frets, I clamped the fretboard in place making sure was perfectly aligned, and then drill through a fret slot at each end of the board into the top of the neck. I remove the fretboard and put a little wooden pin (i use a round toothpick) into the hole on the neck and then cut it off leaving enough sticking ip to keep the board from moving when I glue it. the hole is smaller than the width of the fret so it disappears after I install the frets.

 

 

At this point I double-check the neck for flatness (its flat) and clean the surface with acetone to remove any contaminates. I do the same with the bottom of the fretboard. This is particularly important on oily woods like rosewood which can be harder to glue.

 

then I glue it up, drop the board onto my locating pins, and stick it in the bag for a few hours. the vacuum bag does a spectacular job of clamping the fretboard. Perfect joint every time. No need for a dozen clamps or radius block, etc.

the bag isnt good for everything. I found its not perfect for thicker, less flexible pieces of wood, but for fretboards and other thinner pieces nothing does a better job.

 

[Skyjerk]

Ok with the fretboard glued on its time to carve the neck.

For this I pull out Galahad again

 

 

 

I mark out some rough guidelines on the back and side of the neck....

 

 

 

and carve a big, angled slice off of each side and knock the heel down.

 

 

 

After that I use my dragon hand cut rasps and some 80 grit paper to get it roughly where I want the contours.

For me, I've found the perfect neck is .8" at the first fret and .9" at the 12th, and a gentle C shape.

 

 

This will need more refining at the hell and headstock transitions but this is now at the rough shape I like.

[Skyjerk]

Funny story.

I decided during my last build (blue 22 special) to embed a medallion in the back of my next (this one) guitar.

It will be visible through the finish but embedded in a clear acrylic or epoxy so you can see it but the finish will be smooth and unbroken.

 

It'll be the middle one of the three in this photo...its for my 20th anniversary of being clean and sober, which I celebrated back in April

 

Here's the funny part. Apparently the bird inlays I chose for this build are the same birds (reversed) designed by PRS for their 20th anniversary.
I knew they were PRS style birds. That why I picked them (plus I like them), but I didn't realize they actually were PRS birds, and I definitely didn't know they were 20th anniversary birds.


Just a funny, kinda cool, coincidence

 

Edited December 21, 2016 by Skyjerk

[2.5itim]

I have a knot right in the middle of one of my necks right at the second fret, I had thought about inlaying a penny right there just to cover the knot up lol. 

And congrats on your sobriety!!

Edited December 22, 2016 by 2.5itim

[Skyjerk]

Heres a closer look at the carve around the horns, cutaway, and heel area after some more sanding.

Dont judge my rough spots, bits of glue squeeze out, grubby fingerboard, the smudgy pickup, or my fretwork.

I still have plenty of work to do

The pickup is just dropped in to show how that'll look. Not sure if I mentioned it earlier but these will be direct mounted with no rings.

Doing a direct mount pickup works very well for this design given a fairly slim body and a Floyd Rose tremolo.
Typically the wood between the bridge pickup routing and the spring cavity can get pretty thin in guitars that are slim, in this case there will be a lot of thickness left there because the pickup cavity doesnt have to be nearly as deep

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 22, 2016 by Skyjerk

[Skyjerk]

Given that I probably wont be able to avoid family stuff for the next few days I'm trying to pack in as much as I can before the weekend.

Needed a headstock veneer. Decided to use some of my rosewood pieces that are too small to use for fretboards or anything structural.

I love how the old, dried out hunk of narly-looking wood becomes beautiful

Here it is just up from the basement...

and here it is after planing one side smooth and flat...

 

A good resaw blade is just a joy to work with...

 

Oops. This is actually a little thinner than I wanted, but I love that the blade can cut slices this thin (and thinner))

 

I actually took another slice off the board at .062 which is a few thousandths under 1/16" which was my intended thickness.

I traced out the headstock and rough cut it

Thoroughly wiped the gluing faces down with acetone, the rosewood in particular, glued and clamped it up.

3 hours later I unclamped it, and routed it down to size. This scrap is actually an offcut from the same board of Brazilian rosewood the fretboard is made from.

 

tonite I'll be drilling tunerholes and TR access, and thinning the headstock down (from the back) as its a bit too thick at the moment, and complete shaping the neck/headstock transition on the back

[2.5itim]

Nice work!!! 

.062 is actually only a couple hundred thousandths thinner than 1/16 (.0625) I'd say you hit the nail on the head haha. 

[Skyjerk]

24 minutes ago, 2.5itim said:

Nice work!!! 

.062 is actually only a couple hundred thousandths thinner than 1/16 (.0625) I'd say you hit the nail on the head haha. 

Actually we're both wrong! Wouldnt that be a couple ten-thousandths?

 

Edited December 23, 2016 by Skyjerk

[2.5itim]

No sir, hundred thousandths would be the 0. ten thousandths would be the 6. Thousandths would be the 2. Tenths of thousandths would be the 5. 

I guess a easier way to say it is your half a thousandth thinner than 1/16" haha

 

Edited December 24, 2016 by 2.5itim

[Skyjerk]

5 hours ago, 2.5itim said:

No sir, ten thousands would be the 0. Thousandths would be the 2. Hundred thousandths would be the 5. 

I guess a easier way to say it is your half a thousandth thinner than 1/16" haha

 

it's definitely ten thousandths. I looked it up :-)

The positions are tenths, hundredths, thousandths, ten thousandths, hundredthousandths. Etc

so the 4th digit to the right of the decimal is ten thousandths

the five would be 5 ten-thousandths.

not that my h adstock veneer gives a damn ;-)

 

 

Edited December 24, 2016 by Skyjerk

[2.5itim]

Lol sorry I had a brain fart yesterday, tenths of thousands yes! 

Anyways nice work!!