a2k Posted January 4, 2017 Report Share Posted January 4, 2017 Time for my next project! I'm going make a set of guitars for some of the guys I play with (shhh! it's a surprise!). I'll be heading into the shop this afternoon to start prepping the wood. Here's the general plan: Body: I'm using a PRS McCarty template that I plan on modifying a little bit. Wood will be chambered walnut with flame maple tops. One is going to be carved, the other rounded over with an f-hole. Neck: 25" scale, ebony fretboard w. 12" radius. I'll use some leftover wood from my last two builds for the necks. One is a 7 piece walnut/maple sandwich, other is a three piece flame maple/walnut sandwich. The necks are going to be set in. Hardware: I plan on using hipshot tuners and bridge (I've had good luck with them on the basses) Electronics: Humbuckers, TBD. I'd like to have a volume knob, tone knob, and selector switch. Bonus points if I can have a knob that pulls to switch the pups to single coil. Now, some initial questions: First, the pick-ups. I am clueless to the world of guitar pups. I want the guitars to sound distinct and I think this is where I can vary things. Any suggestions of some different humbuckers I can use to get some tonal variety? Next, the pots. My bass pickups came with all of the pots I need. I assume with guitars I need to order them separately. Are there standard tone/volume pots and switches, or do they need to be matched with the pickups? Any guidance here is much appreciated! Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtisa Posted January 4, 2017 Report Share Posted January 4, 2017 32 minutes ago, a2k said: First, the pick-ups. I am clueless to the world of guitar pups. I want the guitars to sound distinct and I think this is where I can vary things. Any suggestions of some different humbuckers I can use to get some tonal variety? Yikes, where do you start? Arguably the pickups will be the principle component in defining the guitar's sound (other than what you're plugging it into). Picking one will be difficult unless you're willing to take a punt or know exactly what you're shooting for. Everyone's perception of sound will be different. You might say "distinct". Somebody else might say "bright", "defined", "harsh", "brittle", "open"...or perhaps just distinctly different to anything else? Maybe a good start is searching for recorded examples of guitar sounds and finding out what pickups were used, then work onwards from there. 37 minutes ago, a2k said: Next, the pots. My bass pickups came with all of the pots I need. I assume with guitars I need to order them separately. Are there standard tone/volume pots and switches, or do they need to be matched with the pickups? Mostly no different to the options available for basses. Actives (EMG, Seymour Duncan Blackout, Fishman Fluence etc) usually all ship with the pots, as the lower resistance requirements tend to be a bit unique, or the active kit is being used to retrofit a passive guitar. 25k is typical Passives expect higher resistance pots, generally 250k or 500k. General rule of thumb is 250k for single coils or humbuckers where a slightly darker tone is desirable. 500k for humbuckers or single coils where a brighter tone than normal is required. A switch is a switch is a switch. Actives or passives don't care. The question is more what do you want the switch to do, what you're preferred look is and how much extra you're willing to spend in the name of quality and ruggedness. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a2k Posted January 4, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2017 1 minute ago, curtisa said: Yikes, where do you start? Arguably the pickups will be the principle component in defining the guitar's sound (other than what you're plugging it into). Picking one will be difficult unless you're willing to take a punt or know exactly what you're shooting for. Everyone's perception of sound will be different. You might say "distinct". Somebody else might say "bright", "defined", "harsh", "brittle", "open"...or perhaps just distinctly different to anything else? Maybe a good start is searching for recorded examples of guitar sounds and finding out what pickups were used, then work onwards from there. Thanks Curtisa! I should have been more clear in my pickup sound request. By "distinct" I mean "different from each other". Let's say I'm looking for one to sound more like Duane Allman and the other to sound more like Stevie Ray Vaughan. Does that help? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightroExpress Posted January 4, 2017 Report Share Posted January 4, 2017 Sounds like these will be great little basses Ok, so you're right: there's an enormous variety of pickups out there. As a starting point, are you aiming for a vintage-inspired tone, or something more contemporary? Without more info, I'd have to suggest that you try to find a bunch of different good quality samples or demo videos online and figure out what you tend to gravitate to. Switches and pots: for humbuckers, you'll typically see 500K pots. Any standard switch can work, it's just up to you to figure out what features/functionality you'd like to have. EDIT: @curtisa- Ah, you beat me to it! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtisa Posted January 4, 2017 Report Share Posted January 4, 2017 Duane Allman's work I'm not overly familiar with, so I'd be heading to Youtube to find some examples (Les Pauls I guess?). SRV you'd typically associate with Strats, particularly the neck single coil and neck+middle single coil combos. So perhaps whatever sounds you're looking for it will be a bridge humbucker with a single coil neck? Or maybe hum-single-single configuration? Edit: just done some interwebs trawling - seems that Duane Allman was primarily associated with Les Pauls. His death largely pre-dates the aftermarket pickup industry, so anything he was using at the time was likely fitted with stock pickups. So perhaps you can focus on something advertising as faithful to a vintage PAF humbucker for a pickup? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjr1515 Posted January 4, 2017 Report Share Posted January 4, 2017 I am soooooooooo excited by this My next project, already on the drawing board is, would you believe, a....piccolo bass! And I'd never heard of them until I got asked to design and build one! Secret Strategy: Learn from @a2k 's mistakes Things to Remember: Don't let on to a2k that that is Andyjr1515's secret strategy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjr1515 Posted January 4, 2017 Report Share Posted January 4, 2017 By the way, I'm assuming that your piccolo bass will be an ..... electric guitar? Mine in theory will be trying to be an actual piccolo bass, although I've a sneaky feeling it might end up being - yes, you guessed it - a 4 string electric guitar!!!! I have some thoughts of how to get it tonally different from a guitar but I don't really know what I'm doing (so what's new, I suppose ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a2k Posted January 4, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2017 17 minutes ago, Andyjr1515 said: By the way, I'm assuming that your piccolo bass will be an ..... electric guitar? Mine in theory will be trying to be an actual piccolo bass, although I've a sneaky feeling it might end up being - yes, you guessed it - a 4 string electric guitar!!!! I have some thoughts of how to get it tonally different from a guitar but I don't really know what I'm doing (so what's new, I suppose ) Busted! 25" scale, 6 strings, tuned EADGBE... How are you going to tune the piccolo bass you're working on? I've seen people just string a regular scale 4 string like the top 4 of a 6 string bass (ADGC) - Victor Wooten often plays a bass tuned that way for his solo stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottR Posted January 4, 2017 Report Share Posted January 4, 2017 12 hours ago, curtisa said: Duane Allman's work I'm not overly familiar with, so I'd be heading to Youtube to find some examples (Les Pauls I guess?). SRV you'd typically associate with Strats, particularly the neck single coil and neck+middle single coil combos. So perhaps whatever sounds you're looking for it will be a bridge humbucker with a single coil neck? Or maybe hum-single-single configuration? Edit: just done some interwebs trawling - seems that Duane Allman was primarily associated with Les Pauls. His death largely pre-dates the aftermarket pickup industry, so anything he was using at the time was likely fitted with stock pickups. So perhaps you can focus on something advertising as faithful to a vintage PAF humbucker for a pickup? Exactly. I normally use pickups made by an outfit that recreates vintage pickups faithfully down to the tiniest detail: things like the magnet's alloy, baseplate materials and shape, bobbin materials and so on. They sound amazing. And are pricey and could be more so to get them shipped to Tokyo. I'm pretty sure they now have retail sites in the UK though so who knows. On the other hand nearly every pickup maker has a PAF type model. SR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Natural Posted January 4, 2017 Report Share Posted January 4, 2017 4 hours ago, a2k said: Busted! 25" scale, 6 strings, tuned EADGBE... If I may ask- what gauge strings do you plan on using? I am assuming here you will tune down your low E one octave below standard guitar low E? unless you have already played a 25" piccolo- Cautionary statement here - at 25" scale- b4 you build- you might want to take a 2x4 or similar scrap wood- put a nut blank on it- slap a temp bridge on there - slap a couple tuners on there.string it up with that low E and high E in the gauge you are planning on using. See what the strings feel like (ie- tension, how much they vibrate when you "dig in" with a pick or fingers- ) just like a 30" scale bass and a 34' scale bass feel and play vastly different-you might find that 25" scale feels "odd". - again-my opinion only- YMMV. I am looking forward to these builds- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjr1515 Posted January 4, 2017 Report Share Posted January 4, 2017 12 minutes ago, Mr Natural said: If I may ask- what gauge strings do you plan on using? I am assuming here you will tune down your low E one octave below standard guitar low E? unless you have already played a 25" piccolo- Cautionary statement here - at 25" scale- b4 you build- you might want to take a 2x4 or similar scrap wood- put a nut blank on it- slap a temp bridge on there - slap a couple tuners on there.string it up with that low E and high E in the gauge you are planning on using. See what the strings feel like (ie- tension, how much they vibrate when you "dig in" with a pick or fingers- ) just like a 30" scale bass and a 34' scale bass feel and play vastly different-you might find that 25" scale feels "odd". - again-my opinion only- YMMV. I am looking forward to these builds- Ah....there's the rub. The EADG strings on a bass guitar is actually one octave lower than a standard 6 string electric. A piccolo bass is generally the same tuning as a bass but one octave higher... ie, exactly the same pitch as a standard electric. Hence my comment above that, it I don't change the tone, then I'm actually just making a 4 string electric guitar. (and by the same logic, a2k is making...an electric guitar!) My understanding is that the baritone guitar is a different tuning and is pitched somewhere between the bass and 6 string electric. Confuses the hell out of me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtisa Posted January 4, 2017 Report Share Posted January 4, 2017 @a2k - I misread your initial post regarding the pickups. It appears you're already planning for a twin humbucker guitar. The SRV single coil comparisons add an extra layer to your search criteria, so you also need to look out for humbuckers that sound good when split. A split humbucker won't sound exactly like a true single (it can't - the construction methods and materials used are too dissimilar), but it will impart most of a single coil's characteristics to get by with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a2k Posted January 4, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2017 Just to clear one thing up... A few years ago a snowboard company called Libtech introduced their "Narrow Ass Snowboards". They sold them in pairs for people who wanted to affix one to each foot. You might say that this approach has inspired my "short scale piccolo bass" design. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Natural Posted January 5, 2017 Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 9 hours ago, Andyjr1515 said: Ah....there's the rub. The EADG strings on a bass guitar is actually one octave lower than a standard 6 string electric. A piccolo bass is generally the same tuning as a bass but one octave higher... ie, exactly the same pitch as a standard electric. I completely mis-read (or rather- didnt read fully) previous posts- I dont know where I got it- but I thought you were thinking of tuning down on a 25" scale- and thus my comment about tension- I would imagine that would be a considerable amount of string "flop" and not fun to play- but again- I mis-read/didnt read and then commented. Brain still on vacation. Foot in mouth. Carry on!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjr1515 Posted January 5, 2017 Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 4 hours ago, Mr Natural said: I completely mis-read (or rather- didnt read fully) previous posts- I dont know where I got it- but I thought you were thinking of tuning down on a 25" scale- and thus my comment about tension- I would imagine that would be a considerable amount of string "flop" and not fun to play- but again- I mis-read/didnt read and then commented. Brain still on vacation. Foot in mouth. Carry on!! Well, if it's any consolation, my brain emigrated to another continent when I first started thinking how to do this From what I have gathered....but I'm probably wrong....piccolo basses are more usually full sized basses restrung and tuned up an octave but would definitely sound different to a guitar. Pete, our bands bassist, didn't want that. He wanted a very short scale 25inches which at first I assumed, like you, he wanted at bass pitch. My thoughts went to taking a low B 5string set and taking the bottom four strings to get the tension. But he didn't want that - he wanted it at piccolo pitch...so the same scale and the same pitch as a guitar. ....which brings us all the way back to @a2k's thread. For which I wait further details with great interest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a2k Posted January 5, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 5 hours ago, Mr Natural said: I completely mis-read (or rather- didnt read fully) previous posts- I dont know where I got it- but I thought you were thinking of tuning down on a 25" scale- and thus my comment about tension- I would imagine that would be a considerable amount of string "flop" and not fun to play- but again- I mis-read/didnt read and then commented. Brain still on vacation. Foot in mouth. Carry on!! I gotta give you credit for keeping an open mind and gently suggesting I string up a 2x4 with 25" scale to see how crazy I was before embarking on a suicide mission. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a2k Posted January 6, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2017 Here's what's currently keeping me up at night: I'm prepping the body blanks and getting ready to cut the outline shape. The plan is to do set neck mades with existing neck scraps. They are pretty thin - 3/4". So when I set them in, they won't be deep enough to go under the neck pickup. That's going to mean there won't be much glue surface area. Seems risky to me. The normal design is to use a thicker piece of wood for the neck and have a heel that sets the neck in deeper into the body. One option is to glue some additional wood to the base of the neck that could create a heel. The other option is to leave a semicircle of wood coming out from the body and have it become the body. I'm thinking the semicircle option is better because there's one less glue line to worry about. Here's a quick side view drawing of what I'm talking about (the top shows the problem, the bottom shows the solution): And here's a really bad drawing of what this looks like from the back. Again, top shows the problem, bottom shows the solution. Thoughts? Is this a viable solution? Or should I scrap the plans to use the scraps and go get some new wood for the necks? Thanks for the input! Aaron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtisa Posted January 6, 2017 Report Share Posted January 6, 2017 I've never done a set neck, but I suspect those in the know are going to recommend it would be better to build it to take advantage of a longer tenon, and thus more surface area for the glue joint to establish strength where it's needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjr1515 Posted January 6, 2017 Report Share Posted January 6, 2017 Have you already cut the body? If not, then rather than glue a heel, couldn't you bring the full neck pocket further out (just a wider deeper version of your bottom photo) so you can have a full proper extended neck pocket rather than just an extension supporting just the underneath? On your original drawing, what is the distance between the end of the body and the pickup? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a2k Posted January 6, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2017 6 minutes ago, Andyjr1515 said: Have you already cut the body? If not, then rather than glue a heel, couldn't you bring the full neck pocket further out (just a wider deeper version of your bottom photo) so you can have a full proper extended neck pocket rather than just an extension supporting just the underneath? On your original drawing, what is the distance between the end of the body and the pickup? Haven't already cut the body. I rough cut a template today. I think the single-cut one is going to work okay. For the double-cut one, I left a heel tab that sticks out quite a bit further than my drawing. The top edge of the pickup is about 1" from the edge of the guitar (if there is no heel extension). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjr1515 Posted January 6, 2017 Report Share Posted January 6, 2017 The single cut looks fine to me. For the double cut, could you carry on the cutout curve to meet at the far end of the tab so you end up with a little more side support? (I'll do a drawing when I get to my desktop) That said, it looks a long enough joint to me, giving you a total glue surface of 3 inches plus? Anyone else got a view? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottR Posted January 6, 2017 Report Share Posted January 6, 2017 I'm a long tenon guy myself and I hate the feel of blocky neck heels. So I would go ahead and glue on a heel and create a tenon that extends much further into the body. That would give you all the glue surface you need. Then I'd carve that heel to blend into the body shape for a smooth organic blended neck join. SR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a2k Posted January 17, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2017 Long tenon it is. I'm gonna lose that dongle I added to the body template and glue on a heel with a proper tenon. Besides being dongle-less, it should make rough carving the heel much easier. So far, I've prepped and glued the body blanks. Doesn't look like much progress, but it feels like it! Action shots: Here's the wood I started with - curly maple and walnut. I squared it all up with the planer and table saw... And then resewed it with the big bad band saw... Glued up the two bodies... Then it went through the thickness sander and I traced the template outlines purely for fun. These will actually be the backs of the lil' mini-basses. I love how that walnut looks. Too bad it's going to have maple hiding half of it (at 1 1/4" it's too thin to go without a top), but at least the back will be visible. Last week I played hooky and headed into downtown Tokyo with a friend to check out a crazy immersive virtual reality game. Think Star Trek holo-deck with zombies and you've got a pretty good idea of what this was. Mind bending. It also meant no shop time for the week. Here's a shot before we headed into the holo-deck: This week my plan is to get the bodies cut out and the chambers routed. If I have more time, I'll get the tops glued together (I book matched the maple) and rough cut so they are ready to glue on. I also ordered all of the hardware, so I've been getting daily care packages with random guitar parts in them. Fun fun! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a2k Posted January 31, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2017 (edited) Moving right along! Last week I got the bodies rough cut and chambered, wiring channels routed,, tops glued together, and templates cleaned up. So far so good. Here's the photo journal progress report: Bodies rough cut... Tops book matched. It's amazing how different the grain is considering they are two ends of one piece of wood. Everything rough cut, assembly line style. Because I'm not using a tone-o-matic bridge, I made a little extension to my template to leave enough wood to mount the bridge on after chambering. Lots of time on the drill press. And then on to the router for the chambering and wiring channels. I tried out the increasingly popular method of attaching the template by putting masking tape on the template and wood and using CA glue between them. Big improvement over double-sided tape! It's easier to get a precise alignment and quicker to clean up. I also made it up to the mountains for the biggest snow storm I've ever seen. 2 meters in less than 3 days. I took this mid-way through the storm: Here's the plan for this week: - Glue the tops on the bodies - Route the bodies to size - Round-over the backs - Route the neck, electronics, and pickup cavities If I get all of that down this week, I'll start working on necks next week. Edited January 31, 2017 by a2k I had an extra picture that wasn't needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtisa Posted January 31, 2017 Report Share Posted January 31, 2017 26 minutes ago, a2k said: Pacman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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