First time anything

[Phaddie]

3 minutes ago, ScottR said:

You may be overthinking this one a little... 

That is my middle and probably 2nd middle name.  It also comes from waiting for things to arrive and not being able to work on it, I think about it most of the time

[Phaddie]

Update : Mistakes were made..

ok.  So I was able to get the veneer glues into the neck pocket.  The neck fit very tight and well now.  

First Mistake. Since the neck was finally in place i figured I would mount the bridge.  I ran some floss in place of the e strings, got everything lined up, marked the holes.  Drilled the holes. Went to mount the bridge. I drilled the holes too big! The screws can almost be pushed into the wood.  I think this is not a huge problem, I can fill the holes and mount the bridge that way.

Second mistake.  I decided to not use the squire neck plate because I was not sure how to line the holes into the body.  I marked and drilled the body, mounted the neck, marked the neck.  Went to drill the holes, first three went perfect, 4th hit the truss rod.  This I also think I can work around be either getting a shorter screw, although I am going to shim the neck pocket so that might give me enough room to get the screw in. 

Other than that everything went swimmingly.  I am ready to start prepping the body for finish and make the neck shim.

[charisjapan]

Phad,

Good show! One of the things luthiers do best is fill holes that are 1) in the wrong place, 2) of the wrong size, 3) unnecessary, or 4) all the above.   Often, a toothpick is the answer, sometimes more than one.  But remember these are not the strongest of woods, so maybe try to have some nice dowels over various diameters handy.

The neck plate is about the strongest way to hold the neck, so find access to a drill press.  Even then, it may be a little hard to match the holes to the existing holes in the neck (even factory holes wander a bit), but it's a good thing to learn.  Good news, the plate covers a multitude of holes.

So I can see your neck is aligned pretty nicely, but how much height will you need for the shim? 

Can't help but mention ... that is one serious shim clamp!! 

 

 

[Phaddie]

4 hours ago, charisjapan said:

Can't help but mention ... that is one serious shim clamp!! 

It is the only clamp I own at this point.  They cost so much money!! 

I think I will keep the neck as is, I was measuring the neck and once it is shimmed to the right height there will not be a problem.

Next project is to get a sample chunk of ash to practice sanding and finishing.

[charisjapan]

1 hour ago, Phaddie said:

It is the only clamp I own at this point.  They cost so much money!! 

I think I will keep the neck as is, I was measuring the neck and once it is shimmed to the right height there will not be a problem.

Next project is to get a sample chunk of ash to practice sanding and finishing.

Hey Phad,

Apparently, clamps "make the world go 'round," so you will need at least 40 more just to get started.    Just kidding, but you should look out for sales on sets of clamps ...  Spring clamps are handy and cheap.  Get a couple sizes ... I have about 10 of the 50mm jaws and 4 of the 20mm.

Bar clamps can apply a lot of pressure and have a wide clamping range.  Too cheap and they can be a bit "wiggly" ... maybe look at Amazon reviews?  I probably have about 20 of these in a few sizes. By the way, the painted wood handle in this picture is slippery ... rubberized handles are easier to grip!

Eventually you will want to clamp something wide, and since these just use water pipe for length, are pretty inexpensive, yet sturdy.  I have 2 pair (for now)

About that neck shim ... make sure your saddles are set at about the middle of their up/down adjustment when you measure, so you can adjust up or down for fine-tuning afterward.  Don't glue the shim in until you have done a basic setup.  You don't want to have to shave the shim!

Indeed, get a "feel" for sanding and finishing before you attack your body.  Especially with stain, which is hard to re-do.  But each piece of wood will react differently, so to get your desired color for the final, stain/paint inside the cavities to see what you have.  Also, remember that your body, being a multi-piece, will have different characteristics of soak and texture.  Keep that in mind to get the finish you want.

Having fun, eh?

[Phaddie]

Update:

 I have been very nervous about finishing this guitar.  It seemed like a better idea to practise on something other than the body.  So i grabbed some ash pieces at a local place. Three boards 8X16x3/4.  I figure I will divide them in half so I can take 6 runs.

I have some powdered aniline dye ,

some tru oil,

some zinsser spray shellac, (rattle can)

some watco rattle can gloss lacquer.

I think I will sand all the boards, raise the grain and knock it back. Then try some of the methods I have read about:

1. sand,dye,shellac,grain fill, shellac

2. sand, lacquer, grain fill, lacquer

3 Same as 1, but then finish with tru oil.

4. Sand, dye dark, sand, dye lighter, sand a little, dye lightest colour (seen this for maple and once for ash)

Not sure what other methods to try, or to just try different amounts of red dye.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

I really want a red finish with the grain very dark black or purple.

Phad.

 

 

[Phaddie]

Sanded all three boards to 220.  My arms were tired from the gym and now feel like noodles 2 hours later.  It turns out the cheap sandpaper I bought from amazon was indeed cheap.  Within 3 minutes on the 220 I had just a piece of paper with no sand on it.   Gave all three boards a water wipe and will knock back the grain tomorrow.  

Question.  Is naptha needed?  I cannot seem to find it here in canada. If I just wear gloves from here on in will that be sufficient to keep oil off of the wood?

 

Thanks in advance guys.

[ScottR]

2 hours ago, Phaddie said:

Is naptha needed?

I've never needed it, or ever really had a problem with skin oil on the wood either. Sweat sometimes has given me a problem. 

SR

[mattharris75]

Naptha is just one way to clean the wood. Tack cloths, a good shopvac, etc, are all viable. Nothing to worry about. I've never had an issue with skin oils either.

[Phaddie]

Thanx guys!  As usual I am overthinking everything

[Phaddie]

Update.

Spent the last couple of days sanding, wetting and knocking back grain.  Today I decided to dye of the the boards to see how strong I needed to mix the dye, etc.

I think it went ok.  First pic is 2 applications of dye, second is with 4.  About an hour drying time between applications.

Then I sealed with rattle can shellac. I was a bit confused here about how much I needed to apply.  I wanted to seal but did not want to hinder the grain filling.  I made 4 coats 2 passes each coat.  About 45 mins to an hour between.  It was going great until I moved too close on my last pass of the final coat and made a run.

Another error I think I made was applying too much pressure on the tack cloth.  I think I transferred some wax only the wood. Lesson learned.

Question.  What is the best way to take care of that run?  Should I use 220 and sand it down? Or maybe alcohol?

Any advice of how I can tell when the wood is sufficiently sealed but still able to accept grain filler would be appreciated. 

Edited April 12, 2017 by Phaddie

[ScottR]

I'd say you've got enough coats of shellac now. But if you want to learn more, cut that board into several lengths and leave one as is, add a coat to the next, two coats to the next and so on. Find out how many coats works best. As far as the run goes the easiest thing to do is nothing. These are test boards right? You've learned to not get a run. You can also use it as a way to test recovery methods, and sand a bit of it, hit another bit of it with alcohol and see how it goes. @Prostheta's favorite method is to burnish a curl onto a utility knife blade and tape up both ends of the blade leaving a narrow scraper in the center. Maybe he'll show you some pictures....

I think most of these will end up with a need to touch up the red dye and shellac though.

SR

[Phaddie]

I actually have 2 more boards so i was thinking about just moving forward with this one and seeing how it goes.   I might cut them all in half so I have more "learning" lee-way.

 

Thanks @ScottR

[Prostheta]

Very true Scott. I'm not at a machine with access to my photos though. I'll try and remember when i get back from work. I'm a bit sick right now so it might be a short day. I should write that method up.

[Phaddie]

Update:

It turns out it was not enough shellac.  This I know for next time. I could tell as soon as I started to sand the shellac before grain fill.  1 stroke of the sanding block and red started coming up.

I went ahead and grain filled anyway to get that process down.  The grain filling actually went really well. I used timbermate. After a couple of hours I sanded that down. Even though it was not that result I was looking for I learned a tonne and the board looks kinda cool.

 

For next board:

1. The dye as I mixed it was to pinkish.  Going to add some black and a touch of orange.

2. Will not use so much pressure on the tack cloth and may just skip it and go with compressed air.

3. Will use a lighter touch on the shellac spray to prevent runs, and do 2 additional passes.

 

Thanx for all the help guys and wish me luck on the next board.

 

Scott.

[mattharris75]

That may not have been the look you were going for, but it should be. It looks awesome.

Just kidding. Sort of. It does look really cool though. Playing with finish options is a really enjoyable part of the process, in my opinion, as you end up seeing a lot of results that you didn't expect, and sometimes it can change your perspective on what you want the instrument to look like. 

[Prostheta]

Generally, one should be using a different solvent base in the dye/stain to the sealer, otherwise the sealer's own solvent can remobilise the dye underneath it like you've found. This is not a hard and fast rule though. I prefer not to use water-based stains because they raise the grain, which is another stage of work on top of everything else. They do however play better with alcohol/shellac. Staining with alcohol-based dyes and then sealing with shellac does mean you have to have a light touch on the first application and then allow the shellac to flash off before building it up. And not too much at once, otherwise it burns through.

I'm sure that by now the experience will be teaching you way more than I can relate. Part of the beauty of this game I guess!

[Prostheta]

Additionally, you'd be surprised how nice the tiniest amount of blue added to red looks. Adding black seems to be the obvious solution to darkening, however black is rarely true black and often imparts a poor look to strong colours. The tiniest homeopathic amount of blue really deepens red well before it turns to purple or crimson.

[Phaddie]

2 hours ago, Prostheta said:

otherwise the sealer's own solvent can remobilise the dye underneath it like you've found

 I am not sure this is what happened.  I think what happened is that I did not have enough shellac over the red dye so when I put that water based grain filler on the light rubbing of my hands to get the filler into the grain was enough to get through the shellac.  The grain filler then started interacting with the red dye.  Next time more shellac, and maybe not sanding the shellac at all before I grain fill.

2 hours ago, Prostheta said:

Additionally, you'd be surprised how nice the tiniest amount of blue added to red looks. Adding black seems to be the obvious solution to darkening, however black is rarely true black and often imparts a poor look to strong colours. The tiniest homeopathic amount of blue really deepens red well before it turns to purple or crimson.

 This is a brilliant idea!  Thank you.  I am pretty badly colour blind so I was just shooting into the breeze and what I should do to give the red the right "feel".

Cheers all.

[Prostheta]

Test on scrap. The local mantra. 

[Phaddie]

Update.

I died the next 2 boards.  I think I dialed in the red I want (Thanx @Prostheta for the blue tip!). I liked the red so much I attempted a burst on the last board.  It sucks but I learned how the dyes mix with each other and such. Also developed a way better feel for getting the shellac on without running.

These have not had the grain fill done yet, just dye.  Weather has not been great so not able to grain fill.

 

I sanded back the burst board and it looks a bit better.  Going to grain fill it just to see what it looks like.

I also decided it was time to start sanding the actual body. Man I wish I knew more about wood when I bought it.  Whomever routed/cnc the body did not do  great job, and the glue job was also poor.  After 3 hours with 60 grit paper my hands and a 3m sanding block it is close to moving to a finer grit. I no longer have high expectation for the finished product and will attempt to learn as much as I can from this.

 

Not sure how to sand this to prevent it from chipping.

And this glue joint also is not good to sand

There are some deep gouges that are slowly going away with 60 grit.  

Thanx for all the info so far!

 

Phad

Edited April 20, 2017 by Phaddie

[Phaddie]

Lesson learned: Make sure timbermate is dry completely before you sand it. Pulled it all right out of the grain.

I did use enough shellac this time! <--- Bright side

[Prostheta]

There's a learning curve with grain fillers. You can either take the easy-hard route of letting it dry (easy) then sanding it all back (hard, or at least "annoying") or learn how to apply it and buff it back when semi-dry before a light finish sanding. I'm still mastering the second and almost there.

[Phaddie]

35 minutes ago, Prostheta said:

learn how to apply it and buff it back when semi-dry before a light finish sanding

I did some searching and have been unable to find more information about this method.  Can you point me in the general direction?

Thank you in advance

[Prostheta]

I haven't written anything up about this as of yet, however I've discussed it briefly with @Norris and maybe @Andyjr1515 a little. Basically, the grain filler is rubbed into the wood with the grain, then buffed off against the grain with jute or other coarse sacking when it starts to set up. That removes most of the surface filler, leaving the pores more or less filled. Same as always, grain filling benefits from a couple of rounds at least so you can get some of the more stubborn ones nailed.