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First time anything


Phaddie

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Hey Guys,

     I am about to start my first ever build.  I have played on an off for the last 20 ish years.  Went about 6 or 7 without a guitar.  Just had my 40th birthday and my friends and family all pitched in a got me a Les Paul.  First thing I realized was that you can forget a WHOLE bunch about playing in a short amount of time.

When going through the process of selecting the guitar I realized I knew very little about setting up or maintaining a guitar.  After fiddling with this gibson for a while I have decided I want to build a guitar.  

A few problems. 

1. My experience level is at about -1 right now.  I have limited experience with some of the tools needed and no experience with others.

2. I have not established access to a shop yet and my wife is skeptical about any mess I will make here in the house.

My solution:

Thinking about starting with a DIY kit.  There is a place here near Toronto that has full kits at super cheap prices.  I realize the quality will be low, but it seems like a logical place to start to see if I enjoy the process, and can develop some of the skills I need.

My questions:

This is the kit I was looking at.  It is a tele kit with what they call an "ash burl" top.  I am going in a few days to check it out but I am assuming that the top is a veneer.  If this is true how much does this limit my options with finish?  I was hoping to fill the grain with something very dark and stain/dye the rest a red colour.

Next question.  I was hoping to engrave a logo on the back and maybe the front of the guitar.  See attached. My hope was to make the logo a couple of mm deep and fill it with the same colour as the grain.  Then finish with clear over the entire body.  I was hoping someone could point me to some tutorials on that process.  I do have access to an X-Carve cnc machine and possibly a laser cutter which I think will help with the logo.

Thank you in advance for any help and tips.  There look to be some skilled people on this forum!!

 

Phad

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Welcome aboard. You're right, for an absolute beginner with limited access to tools and workshop space, a kit is an excellent way to get your foot in the door.

2 hours ago, Phaddie said:

This is the kit I was looking at.  It is a tele kit with what they call an "ash burl" top.  I am going in a few days to check it out but I am assuming that the top is a veneer.  If this is true how much does this limit my options with finish?  I was hoping to fill the grain with something very dark and stain/dye the rest a red colour.

Even with a  veneer top, I see no reason why that may alter your finishing technique. The only issue I can see is if the veneer is particularly thin you'll need to ensure that you don't get too heavy handed with sanding in case you sand straight through to the wood substrate underneath. 

 

2 hours ago, Phaddie said:

Next question.  I was hoping to engrave a logo on the back and maybe the front of the guitar.  See attached. My hope was to make the logo a couple of mm deep and fill it with the same colour as the grain.  Then finish with clear over the entire body.  I was hoping someone could point me to some tutorials on that process.  I do have access to an X-Carve cnc machine and possibly a laser cutter which I think will help with the logo.

Assuming you have experience with CNC, that should be a doddle to engrave into the guitar. You could engrave the recess into the face of the guitar using the image as the template, and then fill the cavity with tinted epoxy. Sand/scrape back the epoxy flush when it's dry. That's been my preferred method for doing single colour headstock logos on a CNC

Or create an inlay on the CNC that is the negative of the image out of some timber or plastic. The inlay pieces can then be set into the guitar with epoxy. Kinda like a giant fretboard inlay.

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I jumped into this knowing nothing and have ended up building some pretty nice basses. It's totally doable! Read a book or two, follow along on a few threads here, and get to know the workflow before you get into the shop. At least that has been my plan.

Depending on where you are located there might be a maker space with everything you need, or a community college that teaches woodworking that will give you shop access if you take a course. And of course there's youtube to show you how things are done. 

Anyway, I look forward to seeing your build. 

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Hey Phaddie, welcome!

I'm a relative newcomer here, and still in the middle of my first scratch build,  I have also built a kit L-P type guitar, so maybe I can add a few ¥en from Japan.  And just for reference, I didn't start playing the bass until I was past 50 years old, the 6-string a few years ago, and my kit  build was last year. 

Problem1), I was a framing carpenter in another life, but about the only tools that were in any way relevant to luthiery are a hammer, cordless drill, and a circular saw, and "finishing" to me was spackling and latex paint.

Problem 2), I fully understand about working in the house and remember well what my wife thought about it. (Yikes!) I just recently made a workshop after I came to the conclusion that I might stick with this hobby for a while.

Solution ... don't kid yourself, and don't think you can fool your wife!  Even a kit is going to make dust and fumes and noise (the bane of most women, btw)

As a2k said, look around for a rental workspace, hobby school, or a local community college to learn about tools AND use their shop.  I have heard that some high schools have evening classes to utilize their shops and pull in a little income.  If you feel really manly, demand a part of the house for a work room.  (this sometimes doesn't work so good :P)

About that kit ... if you have an L-P, you will probably find it woefully inadequate.  At that price level, the wood might not be very high quality, the joinery iffy, and the parts pretty bad.  Yes, you will gain valuable knowledge, but you should really restrain yourself from trying to "fix it up."  You could end up spending a lot more than the initial investment, and in the end still be kind of disappointed.  I know folks that ended up spending $1K on a $200 kit, and still not very happy.  To build a nice instrument, you will probably end up spending quite near $1K if you include tools and finishing stuff anyway, so I suggest two alternative paths ...

Get a quality kit, and use nice parts.  I bought an L-P style kit from Precision Guitar Kits, and with pickups I already had finished it for about $500.  That's not including tools, but a wise husband will probably not mention that subject for a while. :thumb:

Jump right in with a scratch build.  It will probably cost more than the above kit if you use nice wood, but nice wood is not just appearance.  A quality body blank, neck blank and fretboard blank will often be a lot easier to work with that inexpensive wood.  You could even get a pre-slotted fretboard that will save you a lot of time and tool investment.

About finish, don't think you have to have a spray gun ... rattle-can paint can do an amazing finish if you search build threads.

Blah, blah, blah ... hope this gives you a few options to think about, as well as provides a bit of a reality check.

 

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Thanks again.

Money is not really the driving force here.  I have secured the use of the makerspace very close to my house, so most tools are available as well.  I think it comes down to not having done something like this before.  Most of my new endeavours do not usually require me to be so "handy" (Last year was whiskey, year before that was learning to smoke meat, making bread before that, etc..).  

I want to see if I will enjoy the process, I am not expecting to build the best guitar in the world from a kit.  Just to get exposure.  

My wife has promised me and my son 1/4 of the garage for whatever we want.  If I like this, I will turn it into a workshop, if not I may make a clay pizza oven instead.  I do not want to waste this wife generosity :)

Going tomorrow to look at the kits.  If they are total trash I will pass and rethink.

Phad

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Hey Phad,

Good idea to take a look at the kits.  If at all possible, ask if you can check the neck fit, by far the most critical joint.  Since the body and neck are already sealed, painting should be pretty straightforward.  A tip from my own experience, don't use lacquer unless you are willing to wait some time for polishing. My first tele build came out great, polished it up nice and shiny after about two weeks.  We were moving, so I put it in a soft case, and forgot about it for a month ... when I pulled it out, the finish was "flannel texture!"  Go with a spray poly or something so you can polish it up and play (and show off) immediately. 

Warning!  Building guitars is highly addictive ... and sites like this are like gasoline on a fire. :hyper

Haha! I can identify with food hobby, as I suddenly developed Celiac Disease, and Japan has very little Gluten Free food.  Between my wife and I, we have explored nearly every major cooking regimen.  Also, my alcohol adventures were along the lines of Italian Limoncello, Meloncello, and Japanese plum wine.  Other hobbies are motorcycles and building tube amps.  Watch out with the last one ... a simple 5-watt all-tube amp cranked into a nice 12" cabinet is also dangerous ... leading to a push-pull Deluxe ... leading to ... cascading gain, reverb tanks, tremolo circuits, custom stompboxes ... I stopped about there. :)

And by all means use that quarter garage for father-son time!!  Best investment possible.

 

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Update.

Well today I went to see that DIY kits.  They are for sure on the lower end of quality but they are affordable.  The veneers were VERY thin.  So thin that they recommend avoiding sandpaper!  So I opted for a solid alder model.  Before I agreed to it my friend suggested I see if I could get the neck straight with the truss rod.  I was able to.  It may need a bit of fret work to level one or two frets but all it all it looked ok.

This is the unit I decided on.

A couple of questions.  I really wanted to fill the grain dark and dye the body red.  I have been reading that this does not work that well on alder.  Can I attempt this and then sand it back to try something else?

@curtisa You had mentioned filling the logo with epoxy.  Is this something I do after or before initial sanding?  I assume I can put whatever I plan to finish the guitar with (clear, tru-oil, etc) on top of the epoxy?

Thank you in advance for any help.  I am open to any info about getting a decent natural wood look with alder.  I do understand its limitations, I just thought a solid piece of wood would give me more options than paper thin veneer I cannot sand.

Phad

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41 minutes ago, Phaddie said:

@curtisa You had mentioned filling the logo with epoxy.  Is this something I do after or before initial sanding?  I assume I can put whatever I plan to finish the guitar with (clear, tru-oil, etc) on top of the epoxy?

Assuming there are no major flaws in the body that need fixing up (dents, deep scratches), epoxy is infilled before sanding.

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3 hours ago, Phaddie said:

Update.

Well today I went to see that DIY kits.  They are for sure on the lower end of quality but they are affordable.  The veneers were VERY thin.  So thin that they recommend avoiding sandpaper!  So I opted for a solid alder model.  Before I agreed to it my friend suggested I see if I could get the neck straight with the truss rod.  I was able to.  It may need a bit of fret work to level one or two frets but all it all it looked ok.

This is the unit I decided on.

Hey Phad,

Good choice to avoid a too-thin veneer.  Any sand-through and you would probably end up removing all the veneer ... and who knows what is behind it!  But please note that it is not a solid, one-piece alder body, but a multiple-piece (at least the picture looks to be so).

Quote

A couple of questions.  I really wanted to fill the grain dark and dye the body red.  I have been reading that this does not work that well on alder.  Can I attempt this and then sand it back to try something else?

Dark grain-fill then dye is a standard practice.  It can be done with alder, but it really depends on the particular piece.  Because you have a multi-piece body, the dye will probably react very differently to each piece, which can look kind of weird (or cool, if you're into that kind of thing). Some dyes applied directly to wood can get pretty deep, so could require a lot of sanding to remove ... ask me how I know this. :P You can test a little patch under the "ashtray," pickguard, or inside the cavity before doing the whole thing.  Often, the stain is in the clearcoat, which can help blend across the multi-piece body. They have rattle-can tinted clears also.  I live in Japan, so don't know what's available in Canada ... and flammable, pressurized stuff doesn't get put on airplanes or cross borders very well.

Quote

 

Thank you in advance for any help.  I am open to any info about getting a decent natural wood look with alder.  I do understand its limitations, I just thought a solid piece of wood would give me more options than paper thin veneer I cannot sand.

Phad

 

Have fun!

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  • 2 weeks later...

Update.

 

  After going back to look at the kit again I was just too skeptical about the quality.  I decided to go a different way.  I traded a pedal board I had for a squire Tele.  The neck is very good (may need a bit of fret work) and the hardware is at least better than the kit.  So this guitar will be my parts.  I am going tomorrow to check out an ash body which will hopefully work out, because I really like the look of dark grain filler and red dyed body on ash.

I am bringing the neck with me to test the fit in the body, what else should I be looking for/at?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Phad

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1 hour ago, Phaddie said:

I am bringing the neck with me to test the fit in the body, what else should I be looking for/at?

Because you're going to marry a neck and a body that weren't created at the same factory, be prepared for the neck not to fit the pocket properly - too loose, too tight, wrong shape, not deep enough, too deep. It's something that can be fixed, but weigh that up against the effort, tools and skills required to correct it.

Any pre-drilled screw holes in the kit body may not line up with screws holes on the donor hardware either.

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2 hours ago, curtisa said:

 

Any pre-drilled screw holes in the kit body may not line up with screws holes on the donor hardware either.

  I am avoiding the kit completely.  I am going to see about a custom ask body that someone has made themselves supposedly to fender specs.  It has no holes for the neck in the body as of yet.  I realize I may need to do some work to get the neck to fit properly.   The body is less than $100 so the price is attractive if the neck can be made work.  

  Any tips on what I should look for when I attempt to fit the neck in the body?

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Update.

 

Ok.  I saw the body and for the money ($80 CAD) I could not say no.  The neck pocket is a hair loose bur based on youtube videos I think it is manageable.  Grain looks pleasing enough.  It is a 3 piece body but not really symmetrical.  One piece is just about 2 inches wide only. If It was for a later build I would have passed but for my practice build I think it is ok.

The neck pocket on the new body is much deeper (see pics).  I think this is fine because I am not sure how to line up the existing holes on the neck to the body.  But if I add some wood to the neck to widen it,  I can just screw in to that. (I think).

One surprise, when taking apart the squire tele I realized that the pickups had been changed, after some research it looks like there were changed to the pups from a US standard Tele.  So that was a bonus!

I think my next steps will be to fit the neck and get that straight, then start sanding the body, it has some rough spots in the shape that need to be fixed.

 

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Hey Phad,

Nice score on the Squier, and great about the pickups, too!  How was that neck pickup held in place with only one screw adjuster?  ;)

About using that neck in the unfinished body, it might be easier to add a wood shim in the pocket of the body than to add wood to the neck.  You will be finishing the body, and can find some way to hide the addition, which is probably easier than trying to match the neck's maple.  The other concern I can see is that the neck seems to be sitting in a different fore-aft position.  You should check the Squier neck's scale by measuring from the nut to the 12th fret, which should be approximately the same as the 12th fret to the "e" bridge saddle.  make sure your new body has the pickup rout in about the same place as the donor body.  Or just measure the back of the neck pocket to the front of the pickup rout ... they should be about the same.  Often, a kit-making outfit will change some of those measurements to suit their manufacturing facilities, to keep from being exactly the same as the real Fender, or ... just because.  Check that scale before you do any work! 

An aside, but for further experiemce, why not strip that Squier body (which is a chore!) and then finish that first?  It will really help you to "know" the Tele shape more intimately, and how to go about sanding and finishing your kit.

Have fun!! :thumb:

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The scale length checks out.  The body was just cut differently around the neck.  

I think I do plan on stripping the fender body at some point for sure.  Although I am in no way sure how to go about that.  

There may be more issues with the neck pocket, I will post pictures later on.

Phad.

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The scale length checks out.  The body was just cut differently around the neck.  

I think I do plan on stripping the fender body at some point for sure.  Although I am in no way sure how to go about that.  

There may be more issues with the neck pocket.

Phad.

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4 hours ago, Phaddie said:

The scale length checks out.  The body was just cut differently around the neck.  

I think I do plan on stripping the fender body at some point for sure.  Although I am in no way sure how to go about that.  

There may be more issues with the neck pocket, I will post pictures later on.

Phad.

Hey Phad, saw the pics.  That's about what you expect from an inexpensive body, but not a "firewood" situation. ;)

I would imagine a piece of quality card stock would just about make that neck fit in the pocket tight.  Not the best material, but quite nearly as hard as that body wood.   And put it on the treble side, which is shorter and not quite as visible from the players POV. Again, shim up the pocket with a light-colored piece of wood and then rout it down to exact height, or (gasp!) use a few layers of card stock. I know it sounds terrible, but a high-quality white card stock is going to be easier to make flat and will be just as solid as inexpensive wood.  And when you paint or stain, nobody will know what the material is.  I know are just using this as a "test" of your abilities and interest, so don't try to make a silk purse ... just get that neck in there reasonably tight and it will sound like a Telecaster.

Taking that paint off the Squier is going to be a chore, period.  I have used paint stripper, heat gun, and sandpaper ... and all three on one body.  I liked the paint stripper best, but still had to sand out .  Remember, they use thick paint to cover imperfections in the wood ... hopefully not to much bondo. (that's a joke, but you never know!)  Don't mess with the Squier neck, as you may end up putting it on that body someday.

I am in the midst of making my first scratch-built neck.  It's a chore, but you might get the bug bad and be looking for mahogany or maple soon. :thumb:

 

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Thanx again.  I do have one question.  The bridge does not have a lot of play due to the pickup cavity being pretty snug on the pickup.  In the small amount of play it does have which saddle (and positioned where from front to back) to a put exactly at scale length?

 

Phad

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Hey guys,  I just stumbled across $150 and want to put it into this.  I just noticed the neck is twisted and the frets are terrible, Some has attempted a fret job and most of the are flat and to short to do much about, and the fretboard is marked up in a few places.

There are some kmise necks on amazon for $50CAD.  It looks like the next options is mightey might but they all seem to be $160US plus.

Any suggestions would be great. I was thinking I check pawn shops and see if I can get a whole other tele for $150 one with a serviceable neck.

Thoughts?

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Hey Phad,

As much as I hate to say it, you might want to re-boot.

Any neck you purchase (even a very expensive one), runs the risk of not fitting your body.  There just is no reliable standardization except a true Fender or a Fender-licensed product.  Apparently, your body is not that.

Choice 1) Stick with what you have, make it work the best you can ... gain experience for the building process, not a perfect result.

Choice 2) Get that inexpensive kit ... honestly, it might not be much better quality than what you presently have.

Choice 3) Get a proven quality kit  ... Precision Guitar Kits - Tele Style

My experience was much the same as yours ... bought a cheap guitar and a few aftermarket bodies and necks.  After a lot of failed (and embarrassing) guitars, ended up buying licensed parts, then later got a quality kit from Precision.  Wished I had just got the Precision in the first place.

Cheers!  Randy

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