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28" 6 String Baritone


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12 hours ago, ScottR said:

Breaking the surface can help the curing (evaporation) process. I like to knock the tops off the orange peel after a week. Maybe go through the two coarsest grits I'm using the first weekend. The next I'll go through a couple more. the third week I feel pretty safe with final leveling and polishing.

SR

 

Good tip! Mine are also rattle cans but from a woodworking company. If only shellac were a more hardwearing finish! Someone really needs to create a rattle can lacquer finish with a UV cure process that can be cured with sunlight like Solarez resin. I would buy that stuff by the case! But alas I'm too poor to afford one of those UV cure lamps... And Solarez cures in layers so it's one thick coat or not at all.

I guess it's just a long wait before I get to test it out. Patience is not one of my qualities.

Mike.

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Damn... Found an acrylic gloss lacquer with a drying time/recoat time of 2 hours and a cure time of up to 5 days at 20°C. It's down-side is that it's brushed... Now, does my impatience over-ride my dislike of sanding...

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15 hours ago, ScottR said:

Breaking the surface can help the curing (evaporation) process. I like to knock the tops off the orange peel after a week. Maybe go through the two coarsest grits I'm using the first weekend. The next I'll go through a couple more. the third week I feel pretty safe with final leveling and polishing.

That's the sort of information I was asking about a couple of weeks ago. A nice little gem of a tip to file in the memory bank :D

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4 hours ago, Mike.Mara said:

Damn... Found an acrylic gloss lacquer with a drying time/recoat time of 2 hours and a cure time of up to 5 days at 20°C. It's down-side is that it's brushed... Now, does my impatience over-ride my dislike of sanding...

If you can brush it, you should be able to spray it.

SR

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1 hour ago, ScottR said:

If you can brush it, you should be able to spray it.

SR

I would totally agree if I had a spray system for my compressor! I did get it for that reason... Well it was a birthday present a few years back and I've never even turned it on.

Anyway... I ended up taking the plunge on the brushing stuff since when I called the rattle can company again today to see if I could get anyone a bit more helpful, they told me 24 hours to be safe before wet sanding and buffing but at least this guy didn't laugh at me. I decided to just lightly scuff the top of the cavity cover with 800 and man it still smells like yesterday under that top bit like I knew it would... 24 hours my ass. So yeah I got the brushing stuff and did a compatibility test and it self levels a dream and even though I rubbed it on with a paper towel it's smoother than the spray. Plus I have an Idea of how long it will take to fully cure as their datasheet included that useful information... And doesn't smell nearly half as bad. Got a decent brush too BTW.

Mike.

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Good call on a decent brush. You can't cheap out on those. I've seen experts complete brushed finishes better than any other. It's worthwhile checking out some of the more reputable educators on YouTube in that respect. There are however, a lot of hacks....and I don't mean the kind that call "tips", "hacks" to give their shoddy ideas gravitas they don't deserve. :D

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19 minutes ago, Prostheta said:

Good call on a decent brush. You can't cheap out on those. I've seen experts complete brushed finishes better than any other. It's worthwhile checking out some of the more reputable educators on YouTube in that respect. There are however, a lot of hacks....and I don't mean the kind that call "tips", "hacks" to give their shoddy ideas gravitas they don't deserve. :D

Lol... Any links you could provide? Brushing isn't something I've done much. About all I know is brushes matter and cheap ones usually don't cut it. My old desk had quite a few shed bristles stuck in it but the surface was OK in the end.

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Phew, good question. A lot of these things I've just absorbed over the years. The way I research is to take in as much information as possible - both good and bad - and focus on the outliers....the claims that don't occur often or are in fact unique. Especially the ones that go against the common wisdom. Mostly I end up with an amalgam of information which is difficult to demonstrate on one or two links. I'd say spend an hour on YouTube watching various videos on brush types, applying different types of finish including stain, etc. I don't think that there's a high level of magic or skill in brushed finishes, simply a knowledge of technique in where to work into/out of and using the right tool and approach for the job. I personally dislike brushed work so I do it seldom. Last time I touched on that was a huge solid white Oak table with black alkyd painted leg frames. Unforgiving paint in some respects, but tamed with a little patience and a reasonably "more expensive" brush.

One thing I can say is that I dislike foam brushes. Those things push bubbles out into the paint/lacquer or whatever, which is a lot of chasing up to do. No thanks.

 

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Thanks for the tips @Prostheta.

I sadly sanded through the lacquer though so It's a complete do-over. Not sure what to do now... I'm not waiting for another paint/cure cycle to just do the same thing again. Maybe I should just use oil and be done with it at a satin finish. At least I learned one thing... Finishing is worse than sanding lol. I was looking forward to getting it finished within the next few days as that lacquer really did cure in the time stated. Maybe my tried and true shellac would be my best bet... I'd just have to handle this guitar with more care than my others.

Time to mull it all over and try not to let it get to me too much, I knew this was a possibility.

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1 minute ago, Prostheta said:

@Andyjr1515 is a master with hand-rubbed lacquer/varnish finishes with the minimum of equipment and fuss. I'd defer to him on this one since I tend to shy away from lacquer at the moment. I can however get behind shellac. That is a zen sort of finish if you're hand rubbing.

Indeed it is! It does take a long time to do but the time goes quickly. I may have to try hand rubbing lacquer on a piece of scrap just to see if I can do it... Sounds interesting and if Andyjr1515 has any tips, That would be greatly appreciated!

I've decided on shellac for this build since I am a hell of a lot better at french polishing than I am brushing lol (I really need to learn better finishing techniques.). Plus It's a beautiful finish, I'll just have to be quite a bit more careful with how I handle this guitar. Not looking forward to all the lacquer sanding before I can even start though... Plus re-dying... Oh well, we do what we must.

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Ah well, if you're familiar with French polishing techniques and can dedicate the time and effect, then you can sack off brushing! That's my personal feeling about this. As mentioned, some people are just gods on the brush but that doesn't easily translate to actually doing it....the standards are good to see being demo'ed, but unless they're taught step by step....yeah....cue expectation/reality meme.

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6 hours ago, Prostheta said:

cue expectation/reality meme.

Exactly... I tried and I know not to try again! (At least on a guitar/anything that's stained.)

I can dedicate the time to it and I enjoy the process, it's just a tad slow. I'll most likely be spraying on the first few coats just to seal in the dye and stop it from leeching when I polish. All the grain filler is now gone but I do love a raw wood finished with shellac so at least that's going for me hey! I'll most likely be going for a satin that's more on the shiny side now. Unfortunately the re-dye didn't go as well, maybe it's the humidity or just slowly being beaten down by finishes. Hopefully from here all will go relatively smoothly.

I just want to play the damned thing! If only there were a service to just send off the sanded body to be lacquered... Or like I've said before, I were rich enough to get a UV lamp and some UV lacquer ^_^.

Mike.

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Ohhh... So there is hope!

I'm in-between shellac coats at the moment and it's coming up beautifully. (On the neck at least... The dye on the body is still drying.) I forgot how much I enjoy french polishing. Unfortunately my "logo" was done in an alcohol based silver ink before when I was going to use acrylic so that came up a mess... Sanded off relatively well... I may use black polish to get one in.

I was going to spray some coats but forgot to grab a respirator since you know... Methanol and all... So I'm just going old-school and hoping it continues to build well.

I'm definitely going to have to look into getting them done somewhere else though provided the price isn't too bad. I have less than adequate spraying conditions and at the rate I'll be building guitars I can't justify kitting out for it.

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On 5/26/2017 at 8:36 AM, Mike.Mara said:

Indeed it is! It does take a long time to do but the time goes quickly. I may have to try hand rubbing lacquer on a piece of scrap just to see if I can do it... Sounds interesting and if Andyjr1515 has any tips, That would be greatly appreciated!

I've decided on shellac for this build since I am a hell of a lot better at french polishing than I am brushing lol (I really need to learn better finishing techniques.). Plus It's a beautiful finish, I'll just have to be quite a bit more careful with how I handle this guitar. Not looking forward to all the lacquer sanding before I can even start though... Plus re-dying... Oh well, we do what we must.

Hi!

Sorry - been a bit distracted the past week and have only just picked up on this.

In terms of tips, I did a tutorial a while back - it's here  

I've wiped-on gloss and satin varnishes for many of my builds having been frustrated by lack of spray facilities and a few disasters trying to use other techniques.  Like all approaches, there are tips and tricks that make the difference... and I'm still experimenting...but this approach can cope with full gloss, satin or matt polyurethane varnishes and can be done - as the 'Bedroom Builders' title suggests - in a spare bedroom with the very minimum of facilities.

Shout if you think there is merit and I'll bring you up to date with some of my further conclusions and trials.

Andy :)

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2 hours ago, Andyjr1515 said:

Shout if you think there is merit and I'll bring you up to date with some of my further conclusions and trials.

Andy :)

Damn straight there is merit to this! Since you're in the UK, what brand of poly do you use? Every can I've seen says do not thin or not recommended.

Also, have you tried this with lacquer? There are acrylic, acrylic/urethane (PRS use this one) and the nasty ones such as melamine and cellulose that are all readily available and in non-aerosol form. Those would maybe mitigate the witness lines if I'm correct in my thinking.

Either way, I would like to be brought up to date! Your description in that tutorial was extremely helpful and thorough.

Thanks,

Mike.

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22 minutes ago, Mike.Mara said:

Damn straight there is merit to this! Since you're in the UK, what brand of poly do you use? Every can I've seen says do not thin or not recommended.

Also, have you tried this with lacquer? There are acrylic, acrylic/urethane (PRS use this one) and the nasty ones such as melamine and cellulose that are all readily available and in non-aerosol form. Those would maybe mitigate the witness lines if I'm correct in my thinking.

Either way, I would like to be brought up to date! Your description in that tutorial was extremely helpful and thorough.

Thanks,

Mike.

Hi, Mike

I use good old-fashioned Ronseal Hardglaze Polyurethane varnish.  It thins with white spirits just fine.  Having said that, they have recently changed the formula a touch to bring it down from 'Very High" volatiles to "High" volatiles and I'm not sure you can quite go to the same degree of thinning without getting other issues.  Still OK to about 30%, though.  I've also recently used it un-thinned (the new formula does seem to be a touch thinner) using a simple cheapish artist's fan brush, with pretty good results.  This is the brush I used:

 _MG_0484.thumb.JPG.4217ae9f351a1046810d822945983da7.JPG

 

....and this was the result:

_MG_0704.thumb.JPG.0a6d672f653c7ccf15b509afaab9e3b6.JPG

I really can't get on with acrylics sold in DIY outlets - they seem to stay soft and tacky.  A lot of the commercial finishes tend to use multi-pack products or accelerated UV curing, etc..  Much of the available household stuff I find on the very edge of 'fit for purpose' at best.  

There's a guy on one of the UK forums who gets spectacular results with wipe-on Chestnut Melamine, but it is far too fumy to use in the house...

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Oh - there is one thing though that I refer to in the tutorial but is worth emphasising:

 Polyurethane varnish doesn't 'melt' into previous coats in the same way as nitro, etc does.  Each layer is a separate (though fully bonded) layer. Therefore, the final couple of gloss coats is just that - the final gloss finish.  You can polish, but you can't buff up to a shine - trying to do so will wear down the fine layers to the ones below and you end up with unsightly contour lines.

Hope this helps

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10 minutes ago, Andyjr1515 said:

 

_MG_0704.thumb.JPG.0a6d672f653c7ccf15b509afaab9e3b6.JPG

I really can't get on with acrylics sold in DIY outlets - they seem to stay soft and tacky.  A lot of the commercial finishes tend to use multi-pack products or accelerated UV curing, etc..  Much of the available household stuff I find on the very edge of 'fit for purpose' at best.

Holy cow... That is one nice finish! The stuff I was referring to is the slightly-better-than DIY store stuff. I used Polyvine Acrylic Lacquer on a test piece and after 3 days it was hard enough to sand and after 5 was extremely difficult to put a nail dent in, and I layed that stuff on THICK and probably trapped the solvents in. Or there is an acrylic urethane that a luthier supply store sells which is nice as trying to find it in bedroom builder quantities is near impossible.

The problem I have with finishes that don't "melt" into the other layers is I'm not delicate with sanding or levelling no matter how hard I try. Your process appears to be more ideal for me though as there is less room for my errors! Plus it's bedroom friendly and you've explained it so thoroughly that it's basically a step-by-step varnish by numbers that I'm sure even I would find hard to mess up.

I'm currently looking into the chemistry of UV cured finishes in the hope I can find a way of making a lacquer cure by sunlight like Solarez but that has the ability to "melt" to the layers underneath. I imagine it will be a fruitless effort since I'm not a chemist and have no desire to dedicate years of my life to become one but something like that for bedroom builders would be an awesome way for people to get high quality finishes in less than ideal conditions.

I think I might grab some poly and use your technique on some scrap pieces of wood to see how it goes... I could really use an easy bedroom finish like yours... Plus it's beautiful so that helps too ;).

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There are some very exciting new products around - but many as you say are nigh impossible to get hold of at all, or in smaller quantities.  It's worth pursuing some of the options you're already looking at.  Ronseal meets my needs - but it isn't 'nail dent' proof to quite the same degree and, as I say, definitely doesn't 'melt in'.

Possible to do outside on a calm, still dry day (mmm...I can see the flaw here already), the Manchester Guitar Tech nitro spray range are excellent  - albeit very expensive compared to some other finish methods.

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23 minutes ago, Andyjr1515 said:

There are some very exciting new products around - but many as you say are nigh impossible to get hold of at all, or in smaller quantities.  It's worth pursuing some of the options you're already looking at.  Ronseal meets my needs - but it isn't 'nail dent' proof to quite the same degree and, as I say, definitely doesn't 'melt in'.

Possible to do outside on a calm, still dry day (mmm...I can see the flaw here already), the Manchester Guitar Tech nitro spray range are excellent  - albeit very expensive compared to some other finish methods.

Indeed there are! Morrells for example make waterborne UV curable lacquers that unfortunately you can only buy 20L at a time, waaayyy more than most people who build alot could use in a few years. And of course there are the companies that sell UV cure polyester, vinyl ester and epoxy resins that are great because before dust has a chance to settle it's cured. But they all have the witness line problems with the possible exception of Morrells, but I haven't looked into it because I don't need 20L when this is my first build and I may not get around to a second until next year... Even then.

There is a surprisingly large market gap here, not just for people who build guitars but all woodworkers. Especially the impatient ones like me <_<. Sunlight or atleast low level UV cured lacquers would be a dream come true since guys like me who don't have access to a reasonable spray environment or a place to hang things for a few weeks/months while a finish cures would love them! If I do come across anything I'll be sure to let everyone here know about it. Something you could decant into a Preval unit for example would be great.

And yeah... Our weather here isn't the best, It's either raining, too cold, too humid, too warm or too windy.

I'll definitely give the poly tutorial you gave a go as it appears to be easy enough to get on with. I'll maybe try it with a lacquer too since my compatibility test came out better than my real finish.

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OK... I have a little progress, But first the upsetting part, sanding off all the lacquer I'd put on after sanding through. I have it re-dyed but it's not quite as nice as it was.

EaSjogU.jpg

And here we have the neck after french polishing... Still don't know if I will take it any further, the finish is quite nice at a satin on the glossy side.

6H9QmH5.jpg

I decided not to fill the walnut pores, It's just sanded to 800 grit then acrylic sanding sealer then smoothing that with 2500 grit and a few sessions with a pad and mineral oil as the lubricant. It's extremely slick and there's more coats on the headstock to give that a bit more gloss than the back of the neck.

And now for some fun! That compressor I mentioned in an earlier post... I went out and got a small airbrush compressor in the hope of using it for a few thin spray coats to stop the dye migrating over the natural scraped edge. Turns out you could only run it for 20 mins at a time so it's pretty useless for it's intended purpose which is something I'd like to learn... Airbrushing! So I took it back and exchanged it for parts to get my bigger compressor up and running, Specifically, a moisture trap and a touch-up spray system. After what I've been informed is about 3 years since I received it, I fired it up and it works... So now I have a choice to make, Learn to spray the first few coats or just french polish and accept there will be some dye migration and try to minimise it by polishing in a certain order... :unsure:

pPerSV1.jpg

You can tell it's never been used huh... If I don't use it on this build It'll definitely be making an appearance on my next... Even if just for sealer. Unless I use an oil finish. I know what the next one will be but no idea of what woods yet so that will probably be the deciding factor on oil, lacquer or poly via Andyjr1515's suggestion.

Anyone care to chime in and suggest spraying or french polishing? Spraying will be followed by polishing anyway just to give a smoother surface finish.

Mike.

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