The Black Queen

[Prostheta]

I'll follow this as best as I can! March Of The Black Queen was totally the precursor to Bohemian Rhapsody....

[ScottR]

18 hours ago, komodo said:

The coco neck will be set through, under top, and since it’s not regular HB routes, the cap will go on after the neck is glued.

That's my standard method....

18 hours ago, komodo said:

 Not to mention I was thinking flame on the outside bevel and quilt on the heavy center carve. 

Wow! I want to see you pull that off. I want to see you pull the whole thing off! It's going to be epic.

SR

[komodo]

My head hurts thinking about it. My plan is to have that small inner bevel around the carve will be a natural flame “binding” like PRS. The larger outer bevel would still be the flame but trans black. I need to look at some of your build threads to get some tips on setting a neck under a cap.

Contemplating an ebony neck. I’ve got a very large piece.

[ScottR]

1 hour ago, komodo said:

Contemplating an ebony neck. I’ve got a very large piece.

Ooooooooooh. Wicked.

SR

[komodo]

Scott I just re-read through your last build around the set neck / top / neck pocket stuff. That’s what I’m worried about LOL.

[ScottR]

Yeah, well that was a stoopid mistake. You should be able to avoid those kinds of things, especially since you've seen at least one what not to do example.  You have to make a template for the neck pickup that has relief for the fretboard, and you have to deal with the neck being in place when you do your routes and carves.

Nothing to it.

SR

[komodo]

Looking at the end of my proposed FB, it doesn’t really have a relationship with the neck pup, and I want it to overhang. The Trisonics have a very shallow route. I’m more concerned with thicknesses and angles of the top and neck pre-carve. Full sized plan and full sized templates are in order here. Probably laser cut.

Or even a full sized dummy from balsa? foam?

[komodo]

I had this in another thread, but I'll add it here as well for posterity. 

"Here's a horrible Illustrator sketch of some crude geometry of the build I'm heading into. This more of an exploratory proof of concept, seeing if I can do a thin, radiused body with a carved top - with the top being attached flat. If that makes sense. The carve is a bit weird, because Im doing something almost identical to am ESP FRX. This is an end on view with a bunch of reference lines and depth measurements. The red lines are the body, the intersecting red line on the left is an idea of a belly carve. The idea is the left and right "body blocks" are glued proud of the neck through blank and then carved into shape. I was trying to see if I could do this and keep 1/8" on the sides to allow the top to have a natural binding. Neck blank is ebony, "side blocks" are swamp ash, top is maple. Pups are Trisonics so no depth required, the only thing for depth will be pots and the trem block but that's fairly shallow. But that gets into the weeds, as this is more about the layers and geometry."

"The "right" way to do this would be to route the radius onto the body blank, and bend a top onto it. But for the depth of carve I want, I can't imagine bending that thickness. I could shape the underside of a thicker top to match the radius of the body? That gets complex and needs a very thick quilt top to butcher. I do have some very thick flame maple, so this is a possibility."

 

[komodo]

I'm leaning very heavily to the solid Macassar ebony neck through. With swamp ash body that is STOOOPID lightweight, and a maple carved top. It'll be like having a treble booster built in. HA. Some would say "that will be way too bright, way too heavy". When somebody tells me that you can't (or shouldn't) do it, I'm interested. 

Whenever one of my co-workers leaves somewhere, I say "Don't do anything I wouldn't do!" and they always stop and have this funny look on their face as they process that - because they realize that means they can get into ANY kind of trouble imaginable.

So, no rules?

[mistermikev]

i would think you could cut a top like that with a radius jig and a chamfer but making it follow the curve nice would be complicated.  Could glue a template to the top of the top and follow it with a top bearing, while the router was riding on a radius jig.

[komodo]

Not exactly following you. To be clear on my end, everything on the topside will be hand carved. outer bevel, inner small bevel and center LP-like carve. What I'm really exploring here is the radius of body, and how that may be achieved. I could either: A. glue top plate on flat, and carve top and back of body (illustration explores this), or B. radius body convex, and radius bottom-side of top plate concave and then mate together. All of this would be pre-body cut out.

[mistermikev]

I hear ya, was just saying you could probably do it with a router.  carving it by hand is an honorable approach.

[mistermikev]

now that I've read this a few times (I like to read the directions once I realize I'm lost) I would say either way is about the same.  You aren't going to save much material bending that top over a body, and it looks like your min height could be around 5/8 if you bent it... depending on how you wanted to do it.  I think at the very least that would require some serious steam work.  what if you took a piece of 5/8 or 3/4... cut the middle section down to 1/4, then bent it over.  that'd work and be easy. ie just cut your inner carve with a chamfer and plane the center down to 1/4.

[Andyjr1515]

4 hours ago, komodo said:

I'm leaning very heavily to the solid Macassar ebony neck through. With swamp ash body that is STOOOPID lightweight, and a maple carved top. It'll be like having a treble booster built in. HA. Some would say "that will be way too bright, way too heavy". When somebody tells me that you can't (or shouldn't) do it, I'm interested. 

Whenever one of my co-workers leaves somewhere, I say "Don't do anything I wouldn't do!" and they always stop and have this funny look on their face as they process that - because they realize that means they can get into ANY kind of trouble imaginable.

So, no rules?

Kindred spirits, you and I

[ScottR]

On 3/16/2019 at 11:50 AM, komodo said:

"The "right" way to do this would be to route the radius onto the body blank, and bend a top onto it. But for the depth of carve I want, I can't imagine bending that thickness. I could shape the underside of a thicker top to match the radius of the body? That gets complex and needs a very thick quilt top to butcher. I do have some very thick flame maple, so this is a possibility."

I think your original plan is the way to go.....because that's what I always do. Start with a thick top and thick body and carve it into what is ultimately a rather thin shape, albeit wickedly curved.

SR

[komodo]

I've been working on some full scale geometry in Illustrator - broad brush strokes at this point.

Because of the limited availability of ebony in any decent size, I'm figuring that I'll be laminating a couple pieces together with a large body scarf. Alternative would be turning my boards sideways and laminating a skunk stripe in the middle to make the width. A 1/2" flame strip would do it, but I like the idea of full ebony. Plus my board seem to be quartersawn (not in my hands yet. They are 3" wide and full 1" thick. Behold my crude scribbles hinting at the double scarf.

 

[komodo]

On 3/16/2019 at 5:52 PM, Andyjr1515 said:

Kindred spirits, you and I

Sounds like I need to get to the UK and sample some pints with you while we share war stories.

[ScottR]

15 minutes ago, komodo said:

Sounds like I need to get to the UK and sample some pints with you while we share war stories.

Can I come?

SR

[komodo]

4 hours ago, ScottR said:

Can I come?

SR

Hell yeah! I'd go in a heartbeat. England is one place I've always wanted to visit but never have.

[RestorationAD]

@komodo This is going to be a cool build.  I have always wanted to do a project with Burns Tri-sonics. I wish I had the machinery to build a set. Several years ago I wrote Adrian Turner of Adeson Pickups who is legendary at Burns and asked about the Tri-sonic. He responded.  Subject: Question about Tri-Sonic pickups. Hello, I am in the process of making some 8 string pickups for a customer and they really like the Tri-Sonic sound.  I am not going to reproduce actual Tri-Sonics but I was going to review the construction method and see if I can emulate some of the sonic properties in my 8 string single coil. I realize this is an odd request but you are the most well know producer of Tri-Sonic pickups and I was hoping you could help me one luthier to another.  I understand if you do not want to answer for business reasons... I assure you I am not going to start producing Tri-sonic pickups... I have done a lot of research and still can't manage to answer a few questions. Are all the pickups wound in the same direction? If not what direction is the middle pickup wound? What is the wire gauge? What is the orientation of the polarity of the magnets? Thank you so much for your time. Adeson - Adrian <> Wed, Dec 22, 2010, 3:27 PM to guitarlogistics Hi there   No, I don't mind answering any questions - just don't know if it will be any help...... Firstly, original 60's Tri-sonics - were normally wound and fitted in the same direction ie: similar to an early Strat, there was no reverse wound pickup. However, Tri-sonics were actually assembled by a few different companies - so it isn't unusual to find original units/guitars wound in different directions, they were simply assembled by different companies. People tend to think that everything built by Burns came out of one large factory - this was never the case. Much of the work, especially the electronics assemblies were farmed out to outside electronics manufacturers. The original 60's units all had tape-wound coils - which utilises a specific machine -  which is part of the original sound of these units - differing from most US type pickup coils. There were also three different size/types of Tri-sonic over their original production run - they weren't all the same. All of these units differed with wire gauge/magnet types etc... Each different type were destined for specific guitars in the Burns model range - so re-producing the sound/characteristics of a particular Tri-sonic means isolating a specific time-frame in original production - and matching it to that particular unit. Your customer is obviously presuming that they were all identical pickups - unfortunately, this wasn't the case. Wire gauges varied from 0.04/0.05/0.06 depending on which size pickup/instrument the pickups were intended for. Unfortunately, magnet polarity also varied between whichever company had assembled the units - as long as each unit had the same pole facing upwards, it was considered fine in those days ! Most of the confusion/clouding of these units has basically come from the "aftermarket - generic" units which have been made in the Far East from the mid 80's onwards. These are just simple traditional single coil units with a large block magnet and a simple coil wound on a basic bobbin in a lookalike "over heavy" casing. Unfortunately these units have very little in common with the original production units, and has also given people the impression that there was only one single type. Sorry to drop this on you - but you did ask..... Hope you have a good Xmas and new year......     Ade.

[komodo]

Thanks @RestorationAD, that's awesome. I also contacted Adrian and asked about Trisonics, and have kicked myself ever since then for not buying a set from him as he stopped selling them. When I contacted this replica builder I found, he said "talk to Adrian, if you still can't get them, contact me in a month.". He then agreed to make a set if I didn't tell anyone the source, but I know he is building them exactly as Adrian did - and - with these Greg Fryer parts . . holy holy cow.  Also, when you see the Macassar I just got for the main core of this . . . I'm very excited about it, and am going to take it slow and get it right, 

I'm feeling pressure to move quick though as some nice spraying weather will come quick.

8-string Trisonics?!?!?

 

EDIT: Here is my correspondence, I had asked about overwound Trisonics, and the differences in his models.

"Hi there
 
We have supplied overwound sets in the past - a couple of USA manufacturers regularly use them. They are no louder than the standard sets - but just saturate quicker and have a bit more in the lows/mids if used with the B May type series switching. 
Regarding the differences in the pickup sets - the internal coils are normally supplied exactly the same in all models, with the standard BM type coils/magnets. 
The Classic Brit's have blank non engraved covers and no inner Araldite etc...
The Ultra Sonic's have the original Vintage 60's "Flat" base plates and are ideal for restorers etc...
The BM Supers are the sets supplied to Guyton/BMG with all the BM mods and have the long reach base plates, so they are fairly easy to retro-fit. These can be supplied with the "Super" engraved covers or the original 60's Burns engraved covers. 
 

[about the overwind]
No there is no extra charge - just make a note at the time of ordering. The standard BM sets are around 7k - 7.3k. We are limited by the amount of room inside the covers as to how much extra wire we can physically get in there - but I think around 8k and a bit more is normally achievable. 
 

Ade."

[Mr Natural]

thank you both @RestorationAD and @komodo for sharing these communications. Stuff like this is valued communications among  us stringed nerds. 

I still think a lot of the mojo of the original red special comes from the scale length, in conjunction with of course the player- and the pickups, and the switching- etc- but I always thought that rubbery awesomeness that happened when a power cord was struck had to due with the string tension/scale length. kinda like a ricky 4001 scale length- 34 is close- but just not like a 33 and change. or for that matter a 36" scale. you can hear that piano like sound when picked due to the string tension- and you can get an almost cello like thing going on with a fretless 36" scale in the (>12th fret) upper positions

of course- ears, like opinions may vary. YMMV. 

[Andyjr1515]

11 hours ago, komodo said:

Sounds like I need to get to the UK and sample some pints with you while we share war stories.

Pints?  Did he say pints??    You certainly know the way to a guy's heart @komodo 

[Andyjr1515]

11 hours ago, ScottR said:

Can I come?

SR

Of course!

[RestorationAD]

I understand the "Red Special" thing. I have the same fondness for "Old Boy" (Iommi's main axe).

I am thinking I can replicate the coils as I have a knack for the impossible. I can source the A2 magnets. The problem is the beautiful chrome covers.

Anyway here is some more since we all decided to brain dump in @komodo thread.

More info Regarding the coils - all early European pickups (Hofner / Framus / Hoyer etc..) were built this way. The coil is wound on a removeable chassis - and then completely wrapped in a special armature winding tape (takes ages to learn this - they are ridiculously delicate!). The whole thing is pulled tight - just like lacing up your boots. The magnets are vintage ceramic (similar to Alnico 2). They have been out of production since the early seventies - I have to have them custom made - and they cost a fortune!!! The coils are then placed arround the bar magnets (the holes in the chrome top covers are purely aesthetic). The whole thing is then glued solid to prevent the brass top covers from causing howling. This is exactly how they were made 40 years ago - and they sound great!!! Many thanks for your enquiry. Our pickups are identical re-creations of Tri-sonic pickups built between 1960-65. We use the exact build methods and original components - they are even wound on the original late 50's Burns winding machine, making them the most accurate version of this classic pickup - period!!!!! We can easily supply a hotter bridge pickup, however on Brians guitar the "hot" pickup was in the middle position. Most Red Special experts want - neck pickup approx 6.5k, middle approx 6.9k, and bridge approx 6.7k. Apparently these figures are based on Greg Fryers restoration of Brians original guitar. Regarding pots and caps, Brian's were Omeg 220k log B pots with a .022cap, although Burns originally used 500k pots in the 60's.