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wood binding - ca glue or wood glue?


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so I'm about to do some rosewood binding for the first time.  I've got a good feel for bending it, but I'm undecided on what glue to use.  as I see it - ca glue works great for plastic but I'm unsure of it's ability to hold wood-to-wood.  the advantage of ca is it is easy to work an area, then leave it sit for a while, then work another area.  it would likely also be better in the event that the binding gets damaged and needs to be replaced later.  I also think it would be better afa glue lines.

wood glue likely holds better, but it would seem like it is going to require more stringent pressure and obviously - over a longer drying time.  Starting/stopping could be problematic if you accidentally let it dry unseated with glue in the channel (does that make sense?).  I could also see wood glue being problematic afa getting it everywhere tho I guess you could have the sm issue with ca... but I'm more comfy with ca.

so... what say you?  ca glue or wood glue for wood binding?

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Wood glue is always the option for glueing wood to wood. If you pre bend the binding to the shape of the body before hand you will be fine to just tape it on. And if any breaks are going to happen they will happen pre glue up. Also don’t forget that dark woods like rosewood/ebony are quite forgiving when it comes to dust and glue fillers so you can fill any gaps just you would with acetone/binding putty with plastic binding 💪

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4 minutes ago, ADFinlayson said:

Wood glue is always the option for glueing wood to wood. If you pre bend the binding to the shape of the body before hand you will be fine to just tape it on. And if any breaks are going to happen they will happen pre glue up. Also don’t forget that dark woods like rosewood/ebony are quite forgiving when it comes to dust and glue fillers so you can fill any gaps just you would with acetone/binding putty with plastic binding 💪

 

3 minutes ago, ScottR said:

Check with @Andyjr1515, he's got some info around here somewhere detailing how to use pre applied wood glue and an iron that appears to be slicker than green owl s***.

SR

thanks for the responses gentlemen.  I really hate the idea of wood glue as it is going to want to slide around and seems like it would be a pain. 

the idea of pre-apply is interesting... does he let it dry first?  then reheat with an iron?  I could see that working a little better.  my other option is just to put glue on so sparingly that it doesn't slide.  The way I've had success doing binding has been in little sections.  I have pre bent everything... but going back and securing each section, letting it dry, then moving to the next.  It would seem like wood glue would turn this into a two week process. 

not to mention this is going to be two staggered layers of binding... so glue overspill is going to be a real problem. 

so no one has ever tried ca on wood binding?  (this isn't structural binding btw - hehe).  Think I might try a test as I really see this going better if ca will hold it well.

 

thanks again for the chime!

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6 minutes ago, mistermikev said:

the idea of pre-apply is interesting... does he let it dry first?  then reheat with an iron?

If I remember correctly, that is exactly it. I'm pretty sure he featured that in his latest acoustic build, but don't recall if that was the most detailed example or not. I did wood binding once and used CA successfully. I did have a few gaps to fill, but it happens to be good for that too.

SR

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32 minutes ago, ScottR said:

If I remember correctly, that is exactly it. I'm pretty sure he featured that in his latest acoustic build, but don't recall if that was the most detailed example or not. I did wood binding once and used CA successfully. I did have a few gaps to fill, but it happens to be good for that too.

SR

 

26 minutes ago, ADFinlayson said:

You only need a tiny bit of glue anyway, excess glue is for bad joints, can’t see the binding sliding around once it’s stuck down. Bind an offcut or something to do a test 

thanks AD

thanks scottr re you've done it.  I also was reading some mandolin forums where apparently it is fairly common.  suggests to me it might not be a total disaster should I decide to go that rout!  I guess in the end "it's not how you got to the church... but just that you got there!"

also, I'd think there would be some issues using wood glue, and specifically using it sparingly and in conjunction with spraying water/using heat/bending binding.  I would think that could weaken the bond right in the areas where you need it the most... but apparently it works as it seems to be the preferred method. 

thanks again for the feedback gents.  I'm gonna think on it a bit more and hopefully andy will chime in or I'll track him down on mylespaul - would love to hear more about his methods.

cheers

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Hi All

Just spotted this.  I'm tied up just at the moment but first thing I'll track down the thread.

Basically yes - I use PVA woodglue and apply it in the same way that I apply veneer.  I give the binding a generous coat of glue, and the channel a generous coat also.  I then let both dry.  I then place the binding in position and apply a hot iron at one end over an inch or two which melts and merges the glue.  Then I hold it put in place with a cloth or glove for a couple of minutes for the merged glue to solidify, then move onto the next couple of inches.

It's a repeatable process so if I realise there's a gap, I just go over that bit again, remelt, ease it into position and hold until it cools enough to grab.  I found it much, much more successful than the normal glue and glass-reinforced sticky tape  and bicycle inner tube wrapped round that always left me with gaps to fill.

I'll find some photos in the morning. 

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13 hours ago, Andyjr1515 said:

Hi All

Just spotted this.  I'm tied up just at the moment but first thing I'll track down the thread.

Basically yes - I use PVA woodglue and apply it in the same way that I apply veneer.  I give the binding a generous coat of glue, and the channel a generous coat also.  I then let both dry.  I then place the binding in position and apply a hot iron at one end over an inch or two which melts and merges the glue.  Then I hold it put in place with a cloth or glove for a couple of minutes for the merged glue to solidify, then move onto the next couple of inches.

It's a repeatable process so if I realise there's a gap, I just go over that bit again, remelt, ease it into position and hold until it cools enough to grab.  I found it much, much more successful than the normal glue and glass-reinforced sticky tape  and bicycle inner tube wrapped round that always left me with gaps to fill.

I'll find some photos in the morning. 

that is an interesting process.  so when you do this... does it set faster?  Not that I'm a binding expert but the thing that seems to really work for me with ca is that I can get a 8" area fully set... then move on to the next, and I won't screw up the first area by pulling the binding tight.  thanks again for the response - I appreciate it!

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Didn't read through, so apologies if any of this has already been said but:

  1. Wood glues are always your go to for wood-on-wood joints... but there are many types of wood glues!
  2. Wood glues will be more forgiving to mistakes. If you find a gap in your work after the glue has hardened, you can reheat, press in, re-clamp, and fix the issue. This will not be the case with CA. Given wood binding is sometimes more tricky than plastic at getting the shape JUST RIGHT, I'd say this is a plus!
  3. Fish glue (a wood glue) will have amazingly larger open time than, say, titebond. It is my #1 glue of choice for wood binding. It is amazing stuff. HIGH (read ridiculous) initial tack, slow dye time so long open time, and really long shelf life (so it doesn't matter if you ONLY use it for binding).
    1. Don't believe that BS about fish glue having a one-year shelf life. Go find some old stuff and test it... it's still fantastic.

My $0.02,

Chris

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fish glue... while I will probably hear what you are saying AFTER I make a bunch of mistakes... and reserve the right to change at that point (hehe)... it would seem to me that I really want something that sets FASTER.  I guess it all depends on how you do it.  for me... I see getting a 8" section perfect... letting it set completely, and then doing the next section.  with wood glue that is going to make this a 15 day project... but perhaps I need to change my thinking for wood binding.  I realize it won't stretch so... perhaps I'm headed right for issues with gaps.

 

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4 hours ago, mistermikev said:

that is an interesting process.  so when you do this... does it set faster?  Not that I'm a binding expert but the thing that seems to really work for me with ca is that I can get a 8" area fully set... then move on to the next, and I won't screw up the first area by pulling the binding tight.  thanks again for the response - I appreciate it!

It sets within minutes (actually, more like half a minute).

Now - let me say up front - I've never used this technique with Titebond.  I've always used proper PVA wood glue (that is, not the PVA paper glues / wall & concrete washes, etc).  While I would think that it would work just as well with Titebond, there's just a niggle alarm bell of reading that Titebond isn't strictly speaking a PVA so I can't be certain.

But basically, I turn the PVA into an iron-on glue.

 

I brush on a generous coat of PVA onto the binding

_MG_6183.thumb.JPG.6f63f2d10bfd202fefcb85c7922d49f7.JPG

 

And brush on an equally generous coat in the recess:

_MG_6182.thumb.JPG.405fdc2ce6d58541f713513ba811a272.JPG

 

Then I let it go touch-dry.  This is usually around 20 minutes.  It dries clear-ish:

_MG_6185.thumb.JPG.452264df8b6b05d4e294c351f89e611d.JPG

 

I then get my iron - I use an old heat-shrink iron but a household iron works just as well.  Setting is quite hot (if using a household steam iron use it dry).

Starting at one end, I iron a couple of inches worth flat with the sides and use the iron and gloved figure pressure to ensure that it is fully seated at the back and at the edge.

While that  area is hot, the glue remains liquid and you can continue positioning.  Within a few seconds of taking off the iron, it starts hardening.  I hold a cloth against the binding for probably 30 seconds maximum and then I can let off the pressure and move onto the next few inches.

This below is about four iron/hold/let go cycles in and has taken about 5 minutes total

_MG_6186.thumb.JPG.2b4c2c8acd75589201f7fc6889a9e178.JPG

The nice thing is that there is nothing 'going off'.  So at this stage, you can celebrate by going for a beer, or a meal, or a sleep or even a holiday and when you come back, just heat the iron up and do the next couple of inches!

Also - it is TOTALLY repeatable.  Heat an area up again - even months later - and it will remelt, and you can re-position and let it cool again.  

So if you realise that something shifted a touch and you hadn't spotted it, just run over that area with an iron, ease it back into position and let it cool for 30 seconds and it will hold.

 

The crazy thing about this build was that I had FORGOTTEN that I'd successfully experimented with this method a few years ago and so - for the first side - did it the conventional method:

That is, apply the wood glue, then hold it in place with reinforced tape:

_MG_6168.thumb.JPG.46bd65eb4027c57cc2e50b67cc24ebe7.JPG

And then wrapped in bicycle inner tubes:

_MG_6169.thumb.JPG.b7da078e4a8aed1aa0f9bcba473ba0bc.JPG

And then waited overnight to see if it had worked.

And there were gaps!

 

THEN I remembered the above little trick with the iron and for the other side, I did it the iron-on way and had instant knowledge whether it was OK or not, no time pressure, and yet a very quick result.  Less than an hour for the whole of the back binding.

And no gaps!

It's what I call a true A/B comparison ;)

Here are the two sides (I sorted the gaps from the first method by ironing them out using the second method!!! B) )

_MG_6188.thumb.JPG.c9f75fffa671a13332911ef4a731da10.JPG

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I'm out of likes but you deserve a hundred.  the bible on wood glue and binding.  it addresses every concern I had.  I'm reserving the right to still change my mind and go back to ca, but I'm going to go hunting for "EVO STIK WOOD ADHESIVE INTERIOR" immediately.  This should be a STICKY - ADMINS!!!! copy this out and toss it in the tutorials!

thank you thank you thank you - you da man! 

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12 minutes ago, mistermikev said:

I'm out of likes but you deserve a hundred.  the bible on wood glue and binding.  it addresses every concern I had.  I'm reserving the right to still change my mind and go back to ca, but I'm going to go hunting for "EVO STIK WOOD ADHESIVE INTERIOR" immediately.  This should be a STICKY - ADMINS!!!! copy this out and toss it in the tutorials!

thank you thank you thank you - you da man! 

It goes without saying, test the theory with an offcut of binding on a block with a recess cut in it.

It is worth experimenting to see if titebond works.  If that doesn't work out and you can't find the Evostik, any decent PVA based wood glue should be fine.

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7 minutes ago, Andyjr1515 said:

It goes without saying, test the theory with an offcut of binding on a block with a recess cut in it.

It is worth experimenting to see if titebond works.  If that doesn't work out and you can't find the Evostik, any decent PVA based wood glue should be fine.

if I may... I'm guessing it's a good idea to NOT apply glue to the bottom?  to prevent ooz and make sure you get the tight fit?  yours looks amazing btw.

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2 minutes ago, mistermikev said:

if I may... I'm guessing it's a good idea to NOT apply glue to the bottom?  to prevent ooz and make sure you get the tight fit?  yours looks amazing btw.

Personally, I do put a bead of glue on the bottom too.  The excess oozes out in the normal way.  It is why I'm careful not to use the main iron!  Especially if MrsAndyjr1515's anywhere near ... ;)

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7 minutes ago, Andyjr1515 said:

Personally, I do put a bead of glue on the bottom too.  The excess oozes out in the normal way.  It is why I'm careful not to use the main iron!  Especially if MrsAndyjr1515's anywhere near ... ;)

hehe, that's how I got my own iron... got black printer ink all over the clothes iron and it became the pcb iron!

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