ADFinlayson Posted April 20, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 20, 2019 Well it definitely isn't perfect, but it also sort of is because I freakin' love it I wish I followed Andy's advice from the off and did the back first, then top and sides together, because I had a couple of drips from the sider over to the front thatI haven't been able to totally eliminate, they're smooth and can't be felt but visible in certain light, you can see one near the 3-way toggle here. If I did the top and sides then this drip would be on the back and I could sand more aggressively, but here I'm in danger of going through the top. Anyway, I've lost count of how many 50/50 coats I've done, I finished up wet sanding poly into the top and sides with p2000 which did a great job of smoothing out and removing the odd spec and hair. Going to hand buff with a light cutting compound next. I did the same thing on the blue tester for the V and it came up super smooth The ovangkol vs the maple looks absolutely bangin' under finish I also got the celluloid sanded up to 3000k grit which made a huge difference to it's lack fo shine, thanks for the tip @ScottR and @Bizman62 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistermikev Posted April 21, 2019 Report Share Posted April 21, 2019 looks really great! I don't see a run on the top at all... so I think this is one of those times where it probably is a minor thing but seems more obvious to the originator. nice work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjr1515 Posted April 21, 2019 Report Share Posted April 21, 2019 7 hours ago, ADFinlayson said: Well it definitely isn't perfect, but it also sort of is because I freakin' love it I wish I followed Andy's advice from the off and did the back first, then top and sides together, because I had a couple of drips from the sider over to the front thatI haven't been able to totally eliminate, they're smooth and can't be felt but visible in certain light, you can see one near the 3-way toggle here. If I did the top and sides then this drip would be on the back and I could sand more aggressively, but here I'm in danger of going through the top. Anyway, I've lost count of how many 50/50 coats I've done, I finished up wet sanding poly into the top and sides with p2000 which did a great job of smoothing out and removing the odd spec and hair. Going to hand buff with a light cutting compound next. I did the same thing on the blue tester for the V and it came up super smooth The ovangkol vs the maple looks absolutely bangin' under finish I also got the celluloid sanded up to 3000k grit which made a huge difference to it's lack fo shine, thanks for the tip @ScottR and @Bizman62 Ref buffing, remember that multi-layer poly doesn't behave the same way as a 'melting' finish such as nitro. It depends on a number of factors, but generally the shine comes from the poly itself and not the buffing process, which can cut through the layers and leave a series of contour lines of varying gloss level. I personally DO do what you say with the 2000 or 2500 grit wet sand, but my purpose is to get a perfectly smooth and dust-bunny free surfsce for the last one or maybe two, wipes of poly. For these last two, I load a reasonable area of cloth with poly, but then squeeze it almost dry, then wipe over quickly as I would a leather to dry a car. I'm applying just the shine - not a layer as such. I let this final shine coat fully dry and see if I've got any dull patches. If I have, I just wipe over with dry clean microfibre to remove any dust, then repeat the shine-coat process. I then leave at least a week or two before light polishing - not vigorous buffing - with a quality very low cut auto polish such as Meguiers Ultimate Compound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADFinlayson Posted April 21, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 21, 2019 1 hour ago, Andyjr1515 said: Ref buffing, remember that multi-layer poly doesn't behave the same way as a 'melting' finish such as nitro. It depends on a number of factors, but generally the shine comes from the poly itself and not the buffing process, which can cut through the layers and leave a series of contour lines of varying gloss level. I personally DO do what you say with the 2000 or 2500 grit wet sand, but my purpose is to get a perfectly smooth and dust-bunny free surfsce for the last one or maybe two, wipes of poly. For these last two, I load a reasonable area of cloth with poly, but then squeeze it almost dry, then wipe over quickly as I would a leather to dry a car. I'm applying just the shine - not a layer as such. I let this final shine coat fully dry and see if I've got any dull patches. If I have, I just wipe over with dry clean microfibre to remove any dust, then repeat the shine-coat process. I then leave at least a week or two before light polishing - not vigorous buffing - with a quality very low cut auto polish such as Meguiers Ultimate Compound. I’m struggling to remove those little specs or dots that can be seen in certain direct light, it’s weird because I never had this issue with testers. I suspect it might be the sprayed on sealer, not the poly. Could this be the result of spraying on too much in one go? Said spots were visible even after the very first and lightest mist coat, but they disappeared when the sealer dried, so maybe it’s not the sealer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjr1515 Posted April 21, 2019 Report Share Posted April 21, 2019 15 minutes ago, ADFinlayson said: I’m struggling to remove those little specs or dots that can be seen in certain direct light, it’s weird because I never had this issue with testers. I suspect it might be the sprayed on sealer, not the poly. Could this be the result of spraying on too much in one go? Said spots were visible even after the very first and lightest mist coat, but they disappeared when the sealer dried, so maybe it’s not the sealer Not quite sure what you mean by spots, @ADFinlayson. In the pictures you've posted, the surface looks very bobbly. Is that after flattening with the 2000 grit? If so, it needs more flattening. Are those the spots you are talking about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADFinlayson Posted April 21, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 21, 2019 28 minutes ago, Andyjr1515 said: Not quite sure what you mean by spots, @ADFinlayson. In the pictures you've posted, the surface looks very bobbly. Is that after flattening with the 2000 grit? If so, it needs more flattening. Are those the spots you are talking about? blobby is a good way to describe it, I've wet sanded quite a bit between coats with 2000, I'm assuming this means I need to go lower to remove the blobs but I'm worried about going through the colour, I know the more layers of poly I add, the less likely I am to go through the stain, but surely I need to sand down to where blobs are regardless of how many layers there are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bizman62 Posted April 21, 2019 Report Share Posted April 21, 2019 Use a relatively stiff sanding block in order to only hit the tops of the bobbles. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjr1515 Posted April 21, 2019 Report Share Posted April 21, 2019 1 hour ago, ADFinlayson said: blobby is a good way to describe it, I've wet sanded quite a bit between coats with 2000, I'm assuming this means I need to go lower to remove the blobs but I'm worried about going through the colour, I know the more layers of poly I add, the less likely I am to go through the stain, but surely I need to sand down to where blobs are regardless of how many layers there are. What you have is a fairly normal spray 'bobble' which has then got a number of layers of poly on top. The wiped on lsyers are so thin that they follow the contours fairly closely, even the bobbles. More coats will soften the effect by tending to pool in the dips but not eliminate it. So yes - ideally you need to flatten further. What I do is use a block with 2500 grit wet - wiping the sludge and rinsing the paper clean frequently and looking very carefully for the slightest sign of lightening of the stain or colour tinge appearing in the sludge. I sometimes go as far as I dare, then do a number more proper coats to build up again before redoing my final flattening and 'shiny' coats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADFinlayson Posted April 21, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 21, 2019 OK so i just scuff sanded the top and sides with 1500 and I could see high spots starting to go white so clearly getting knocked down, p2000 was obviously doing nothing but polish the high spots. So then I went crazy and scuffed the whole thing with 800 thinking this would be potentially catastrophic but with the mind set of fuck it, if it goes wrong, I'll sand it back allover again, it's my guitar. Anyway 800 grit didn't go through anything, I was clearly a lot more worried than I should have been, I've now eliminated the vast majority of the high spots and also mostly fixed the edges whee the drips were. The top turned a consistent dull red and I was worried at this point, but when I cleaned it all up and added another coat of poly (this time 70/30 poly/thinners) it went back to it's original vibrant red. So I guess now I need to go back to building up the layers, then perhaps levelling off with something higher than 800, maybe 1200 or 1500 and then more layers until I've got the appropriate amount of gloss and a level surface before I try wet sanding poly in with 2000. My problem was two-fold, 1. I didn't have enough patience and I clearly need more coats and more sanding to create a quality finish. and 2. I was assuming that sanding back with such a high grit would be sufficient to remove high spots when in reality, 2000+ sand paper really does very little in terms of removing material. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjr1515 Posted April 21, 2019 Report Share Posted April 21, 2019 40 minutes ago, ADFinlayson said: OK so i just scuff sanded the top and sides with 1500 and I could see high spots starting to go white so clearly getting knocked down, p2000 was obviously doing nothing but polish the high spots. So then I went crazy and scuffed the whole thing with 800 thinking this would be potentially catastrophic but with the mind set of fuck it, if it goes wrong, I'll sand it back allover again, it's my guitar. Anyway 800 grit didn't go through anything, I was clearly a lot more worried than I should have been, I've now eliminated the vast majority of the high spots and also mostly fixed the edges whee the drips were. The top turned a consistent dull red and I was worried at this point, but when I cleaned it all up and added another coat of poly (this time 70/30 poly/thinners) it went back to it's original vibrant red. So I guess now I need to go back to building up the layers, then perhaps levelling off with something higher than 800, maybe 1200 or 1500 and then more layers until I've got the appropriate amount of gloss and a level surface before I try wet sanding poly in with 2000. My problem was two-fold, 1. I didn't have enough patience and I clearly need more coats and more sanding to create a quality finish. and 2. I was assuming that sanding back with such a high grit would be sufficient to remove high spots when in reality, 2000+ sand paper really does very little in terms of removing material. Sounds like you're on the road to success again By the way, if you did break through - easy enough to do on the corners - don't forget that by definition, the break through bits are now back to the stain level and therefore capable of being restained! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADFinlayson Posted April 22, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2019 On 4/21/2019 at 12:53 PM, Andyjr1515 said: Sounds like you're on the road to success again By the way, if you did break through - easy enough to do on the corners - don't forget that by definition, the break through bits are now back to the stain level and therefore capable of being restained! I was until catastrophe. Sanded through the sealer in a big way. Not really sure how as I was sanding a very bobbly area with 1200 that was clearly high, tried restraining but it looks terrible and it’s right close to the f hole so is glaringly obvious. Looks like my only choice is to get the orbital sander out and start again 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistermikev Posted April 22, 2019 Report Share Posted April 22, 2019 43 minutes ago, ADFinlayson said: I was until catastrophe. Sanded through the sealer in a big way. Not really sure how as I was sanding a very bobbly area with 1200 that was clearly high, tried restraining but it looks terrible and it’s right close to the f hole so is glaringly obvious. Looks like my only choice is to get the orbital sander out and start again if it makes you feel better... I'm going thru pretty much the sm thing myself. I have learned an interesting trick tho.. i didn't sand thru... just lightened up an area... so I added some dye to my tru oil... actually works very well, however at first it looked bad until I built up some clear on top of it again. might be true for you as well. if you dye it... then take the time to build the gloss again... it might look ok. or add dye to your gloss. every time I get to the finishing step: I realize this is the most difficult step and stresses me out terribly. I had my one body 98% perfect and was about to say "good enough" but I felt like that was giving up... sanded just a little bit more in problem area and blamo... felt like I screwed it all up. Keep swearing that next time I'll leave well enough alone (I won't). Anywho, my long way of saying "I feel your pain". 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bizman62 Posted April 23, 2019 Report Share Posted April 23, 2019 7 hours ago, ADFinlayson said: Looks like my only choice is to get the orbital sander out and start again For what I've learned the end result often is better after a total restart. You don't have to take worry about any weak spots created at an earlier stage so you'll be able to work faster and more accurately. Whichever way you choose the time consumed will remain the same. At this point the main thing to ask yourself is whether you'd like to master the finishing process from the start to the finish or learn a trick or two in fixing flaws. For a builder the former is an essential skill, for a repairman the latter can come in handy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADFinlayson Posted April 23, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2019 8 hours ago, mistermikev said: I had my one body 98% perfect and was about to say "good enough" but I felt like that was giving up... sanded just a little bit more in problem area and blamo... felt like I screwed it all up. Keep swearing that next time I'll leave well enough alone (I won't). Anywho, my long way of saying "I feel your pain". This is pretty much what went on, I had the majority of the body looking great and just had this one little problem area, so I wet sanded it a bit more and bam, straight through. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADFinlayson Posted April 23, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2019 2 hours ago, Bizman62 said: For what I've learned the end result often is better after a total restart. You don't have to take worry about any weak spots created at an earlier stage so you'll be able to work faster and more accurately. Whichever way you choose the time consumed will remain the same. At this point the main thing to ask yourself is whether you'd like to master the finishing process from the start to the finish or learn a trick or two in fixing flaws. For a builder the former is an essential skill, for a repairman the latter can come in handy. You're right the end result probably will be better if I start again, although I'm not looking forward to sanding it back to bare wood to the point where it will consistently take stain again. I did try to fix the problem area by restaining, but I couldn't get it looking anything close to what was there, to get the colour current colour, I stained it black, sanded it back, stained crimson red then stained used as a spirit stain to do some highlights. I'm also out of sealer so I need to wait for another couple of cans to turn up before I can start the process again which is annoying but I think I'll use to the time to do some more research level sanding etc so I hopefully don't cock it up again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjr1515 Posted April 23, 2019 Report Share Posted April 23, 2019 21 minutes ago, ADFinlayson said: You're right the end result probably will be better if I start again, although I'm not looking forward to sanding it back to bare wood to the point where it will consistently take stain again. I did try to fix the problem area by restaining, but I couldn't get it looking anything close to what was there, to get the colour current colour, I stained it black, sanded it back, stained crimson red then stained used as a spirit stain to do some highlights. I'm also out of sealer so I need to wait for another couple of cans to turn up before I can start the process again which is annoying but I think I'll use to the time to do some more research level sanding etc so I hopefully don't cock it up again. Is it worth trying a wipe-on sealer? I confess, though, that I don't use sealer in any case... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADFinlayson Posted April 23, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2019 10 minutes ago, Andyjr1515 said: Is it worth trying a wipe-on sealer? I confess, though, that I don't use sealer in any case... I have the same sealer in wipe on form and it does a good job of sealing but it lifts off some of the stain, not so bad if it's applied carefully with a brush but removes a lot of stain if it's wiped on with a cloth. Multiple mist coats with the spray can version seals the colour in without removing anything. Short answer, the wipe on sealer is perfect for a natural top but less good for a stained top. None of that matters though until I master the level sanding process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADFinlayson Posted April 23, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2019 These are the sealers I've been using. They also do an acrylic sealer but I don't think is compatible with the wipe on poly I'm got Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjr1515 Posted April 23, 2019 Report Share Posted April 23, 2019 I've used both of those in the past (before deciding that sanding sealer wasn't for me) and they are good products. I suspect, though, that the colour coming off when wiping is more from the spirit stain with the cellulose from the sealer softening it all up again and releasing the colour from the stain. So yes - mist spray would indeed be better if you are going to use it at all. But I'm a bit mystified by the bobbles. If I go back to your April 14 picture, before seal coat, it looks as smooth as the proverbial baby's. As soon as the sealer coat goes on there seem to be the bobbles - which presumably is either raised grain or spray spatter. However, if you are talking mist coats, then there actually shouldn't be any spray spatter, so maybe it's grain raise? When did you first notice the bobbles? It's worth considering not using sealer at all for your second time around. Instead, poly directly over the stained wood but let your first coat of poly fully dry (overnight) and then apply a second, also dried overnight before going onto the normal regime. It will probably take a few more coats to start building up a gloss, but it will get there. There is another way too for stained woods, of which I may be the only crazy in the world who uses it, but it works for me. I prepare the stained surface with tru-oil - using a variation of the slurry and buff approach - before then moving onto the poly. More than happy to describe it if you want me to but otherwise I won't distract you with it at this stage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADFinlayson Posted April 23, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2019 25 minutes ago, Andyjr1515 said: I've used both of those in the past (before deciding that sanding sealer wasn't for me) and they are good products. I suspect, though, that the colour coming off when wiping is more from the spirit stain with the cellulose from the sealer softening it all up again and releasing the colour from the stain. So yes - mist spray would indeed be better if you are going to use it at all. But I'm a bit mystified by the bobbles. If I go back to your April 14 picture, before seal coat, it looks as smooth as the proverbial baby's. As soon as the sealer coat goes on there seem to be the bobbles - which presumably is either raised grain or spray spatter. However, if you are talking mist coats, then there actually shouldn't be any spray spatter, so maybe it's grain raise? When did you first notice the bobbles? It's worth considering not using sealer at all for your second time around. Instead, poly directly over the stained wood but let your first coat of poly fully dry (overnight) and then apply a second, also dried overnight before going onto the normal regime. It will probably take a few more coats to start building up a gloss, but it will get there. There is another way too for stained woods, of which I may be the only crazy in the world who uses it, but it works for me. I prepare the stained surface with tru-oil - using a variation of the slurry and buff approach - before then moving onto the poly. More than happy to describe it if you want me to but otherwise I won't distract you with it at this stage. You're probably right re the spirit stain getting lifted off, but every time I've used any wipe on finish (oil or poly) over a stained top (be it spirit or water-based) I've noticed some lifting of stain, the bobbly type marks you referenced from the sealer did in fact disappear when the sealer had dried over night, I also went over the sealer with some 0000 and as you say, it was as smooth as a baby's butt. Looking back, I think my issue has been that I started with higher grit, sanded and sanded, still had high spots to moved to lower grits and ultimately just took too much off. The majority of the top looks fantastic so I don't think the method is the problem, I think it's just my shit execution of the method. I think I need to have one more go at spot staining the problem area, seal it again and try to make good of what is there before take it all off. Kudos to you lot that can pull these finishes off well, definitely that hardest part of the job! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjr1515 Posted April 23, 2019 Report Share Posted April 23, 2019 7 minutes ago, ADFinlayson said: Kudos to you lot that can pull these finishes off well, definitely that hardest part of the job! Well - it's been a lot of trial and error. That is, it's been a right old trial and there's been a huge amount of error along the way 8 minutes ago, ADFinlayson said: I think I need to have one more go at spot staining the problem area, seal it again and try to make good of what is there before take it all off. Sounds a good idea. I've patched some similar multi-stain areas in the past (in fact, very recently!) and as long as you are not afraid to get back down to proper bare, dye-sucking, wood in the affected area, it can usually be a fairly invisible fix. When you are matching up the colours and the look, always remember that the still-damp colour of the patch will be pretty close to its final varnished colour. Then to merge the edge of the patch, as @mistermikev says, tinting the finish a touch in that area can work quite well (although clearly you can only use the spirit stain for this purpose) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADFinlayson Posted April 23, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2019 So here is the problem area re-stained, it's not a million miles off I guess, we will see what it comes out like under finish. You can see there is another problem area between the pots which I've touched up the same. But can you see all this milky wierdness? What do I do about it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjr1515 Posted April 23, 2019 Report Share Posted April 23, 2019 Does the milky stuff go away if you wipe it with poly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADFinlayson Posted April 23, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2019 35 minutes ago, Andyjr1515 said: Does the milky stuff go away if you wipe it with poly? Yeah if I apply another coat, it will disappear Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
komodo Posted April 23, 2019 Report Share Posted April 23, 2019 That thing looks incredible. It's like it's just waiting to get out and do some damage to something. Angry blood red LP will not fail! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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