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Urumiko

First build - Hollow Custom 22.

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cheers all, I'll reply in a one'r.

Comments on either platform is fine, whatever s best for you and i like to stay active on both.
I think if push comes to shove comments on youtube help boost the channel but either's fine with me.

Yes I've heard Weng-eh wengay, wenje.. happy to take a vote =).

Ash.. Whats the danger? Genuine question.. Is there danger it will catch and veer off?

I'm not sure I am overthinking based on your suggestions.. My blank is only thick enough to just allow  10 degrees, and just hit 1cm thickness at the tip... Only thing keeping me assured is I'm thinking i can add veneers if i have to.. and i guess strictly speaking i don't need the full thickness.past the furthest tuners from the nut. I'm not sure what the do's and don'ts are in terms of if i should sacrifice yet more angle in favour of thickness or ride the knive edge between 1cm and 10 degrees.. If push came to shove string trees would fix a shallow angle but veneers would fix thickness... Decisions decisions..

Yeah I'd much prefer the table saw but my cross cut fence only goes to 30 degrees. I thought about trying to utilise a wedge in some way to jig it but I'm not so sure.. Suggestions anyone?

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I enjoyed your choices of background music immensely!  Kind of cool that it feels like we're hearing the voice that goes on in your head while building.  Makes me think of all the things I think about while building, but never say out loud.  In fact I'm pretty sure all of those thoughts are written somewhere in my plan... then re-figured on the fly as I'm too lazy to open my plan! 

The build is looking great... I figure once you get the truss rod in... you are home free... so how doe sit feel to be homefree?! 

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17 hours ago, ADFinlayson said:

 Your routing method is a bit risky though, much better to take 2mm passes along the length of the channel and work your way down to 9mm in a few passes.

I do think you’re overthinking your headstock thickness though, 14-15mm depth will be fine for most tuners and 10°+ headstock angle is enough to provide plenty of string pull over the nut 

I fully agree with @ADFinlayson on these points. 

10 degrees is what I usually aim for.  Decent break angle and modest break risk!

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2 minutes ago, Andyjr1515 said:

I fully agree with @ADFinlayson on these points. 

10 degrees is what I usually aim for.  Decent break angle and modest break risk!

Ah...just caught up with the issue of your billet thickness.

You could go for a slightly shallower headstock angle to give you a few more mm and see how it goes playing wise in terms of using a string tree or retention bar if you do end up with nut buzz (which at, say, 8 degrees, I think is still fairly unlikely...)

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I was interested in your weight reduction vid.  There's a discussion thread about weight reduction strategies and considerations in the Design Bar section here you might be interested in:

Your experiences and views on the topic would be very welcome :)

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10 hours ago, Urumiko said:

cheers all, I'll reply in a one'r.

Comments on either platform is fine, whatever s best for you and i like to stay active on both.
I think if push comes to shove comments on youtube help boost the channel but either's fine with me.

Yes I've heard Weng-eh wengay, wenje.. happy to take a vote =).

Ash.. Whats the danger? Genuine question.. Is there danger it will catch and veer off?

I'm not sure I am overthinking based on your suggestions.. My blank is only thick enough to just allow  10 degrees, and just hit 1cm thickness at the tip... Only thing keeping me assured is I'm thinking i can add veneers if i have to.. and i guess strictly speaking i don't need the full thickness.past the furthest tuners from the nut. I'm not sure what the do's and don'ts are in terms of if i should sacrifice yet more angle in favour of thickness or ride the knive edge between 1cm and 10 degrees.. If push came to shove string trees would fix a shallow angle but veneers would fix thickness... Decisions decisions..

Yeah I'd much prefer the table saw but my cross cut fence only goes to 30 degrees. I thought about trying to utilise a wedge in some way to jig it but I'm not so sure.. Suggestions anyone?

There isn't a lot of meat on a 6mm bit and they aren't very strong, especially if it's a cheap bit so there is a strong chance of just snapping the bit in half, also the more lateral pressure you put on a bit, they quicker you will blunt it.

Honestly they easiest way to resolve your headstock thickness concerns, is just to glue an offcut on to the bottom, if you get a good joint then it would barely be visible on the underside especially if the joint is under your tuners, it wouldn't be visible on the top anyway.

Search youtube for "cutting tapers on table saw" 

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7 hours ago, mistermikev said:

I enjoyed your choices of background music immensely!  Kind of cool that it feels like we're hearing the voice that goes on in your head while building.  Makes me think of all the things I think about while building, but never say out loud.  In fact I'm pretty sure all of those thoughts are written somewhere in my plan... then re-figured on the fly as I'm too lazy to open my plan! 

The build is looking great... I figure once you get the truss rod in... you are home free... so how doe sit feel to be homefree?! 

Lol... Well.. the music is just from youtubes royalty free library so its fairly limited, but i do try and pick the best jams ^_^ lol.

I keep meaning to record my own background music I just haven't got around to it yet.

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1 hour ago, Andyjr1515 said:

Ah...just caught up with the issue of your billet thickness.

You could go for a slightly shallower headstock angle to give you a few more mm and see how it goes playing wise in terms of using a string tree or retention bar if you do end up with nut buzz (which at, say, 8 degrees, I think is still fairly unlikely...)

i feel I'm going to end up screaming power in a Jeremy Clarkson voice and lobbing it off without measuring  

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I hope I'm not coming across as a jerk, cause I'm not. Starting the router with the bit on the workpiece is just dangerous. If it were me, I'd actually edit that out of a video hosted on youtube. This isn't preachy or pedantic, there are people using YT vids as templates for how to work.

Clarksons voice is also in my head much of the day. It takes great energy to shift that to Morgan Freeman or Jeff Goldblum.

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2 hours ago, komodo said:

Starting the router with the bit on the workpiece is just dangerous

Now that you mentioned it, editing that part out is a good idea for the very reason you gave.

Having a hole drilled at both ends in a soft wood, maybe. But tilting the bit a full 9 mm down on one of the hardest woods really can make serious damage.

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9 hours ago, komodo said:

I hope I'm not coming across as a jerk, cause I'm not. Starting the router with the bit on the workpiece is just dangerous. If it were me, I'd actually edit that out of a video hosted on youtube. This isn't preachy or pedantic, there are people using YT vids as templates for how to work.

Clarksons voice is also in my head much of the day. It takes great energy to shift that to Morgan Freeman or Jeff Goldblum.

Not at all matey.

Can you advise specifically what i did that was unsafe and how you'd recommend i do it in future?

I've taken the point about making multiple shallower passes.

Are you suggesting that starting it up within the pre-drilled hole was a bad idea too in-case it moved and bit in? If you can be specific I'll see if i can trim it without re-uploading. Its a damn shame they took away the annotation feature really.


You've given me an idea actually.. I think you tube has the ability to insert "cards" at the beginning and end of videos.
I think it would allow me to stick a warning at the start of my previously uploaded and future  vids advising that i don't know what I'm dong etc. I have stated this before in past vids but it is prob worth mentioning in every video on principle.

 

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5 minutes ago, Urumiko said:

Not at all matey.

Can you advise specifically what i did that was unsafe and how you'd recommend i do it in future?

I've taken the point about making multiple shallower passes.

Are you suggesting that starting it up within the pre-drilled hole was a bad idea too in-case it moved and bit in? If you can be specific I'll see if i can trim it without re-uploading. Its a damn shame they took away the annotation feature really.


You've given me an idea actually.. I think you tube has the ability to insert "cards" at the beginning and end of videos.
I think it would allow me to stick a warning at the start of my previously uploaded and future  vids advising that i don't know what I'm dong etc. I have stated this before in past vids but it is prob worth mentioning in every video on principle.

 

The best way to route a truss rod with your tools is to use your triton router in handheld mode with the fence, set the depth stop to 9mm (life up the little spring loaded rod, stick the end of the truss or in it and tighten it up). Start with the bit just above the work, start the router then plunge down a couple of mm, take a pass along the length, plunge again, take another pass and so on until you hit the depth stop. The fences in those little triton router are surprisingly good, just make sure the screw for the depth stop is nice and tight 

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@ADFinlayson is right. Either use a plunge router, or start your router first then gently plunge it into the piece, and continue with the cut. The problem in the video was having the bit contacting the wood, and THEN starting it up. If total noobs watched that and did it, serious injury could occur and nobody wants that.

Since the router is likely the highest RPM tool in the shop, I give it even more respect than other tools. Consider is all the stuff that can happen unexpectedly. What if the collet loosens? Maybe just a little so it's still cutting (mostly) but the bit is spinning in the collet and descending deeper in the workpiece?! At 50k rpms . . .What if a chunk gets torn / breaks loose from an edge, what if there was a piece of metal in the wood? What if you suddenly lost power? Many of those may or may not have a great effect, but I'd rather be on the safer side of disaster than the worst side. Believe me, I'm no "Safety Sam" but I do have all 10 fingers.

Much respect for you doing a build and documenting it and doing video production, I'm lucky to remember to snap pics of what I'm doing. Welcome to this community, it's great to have more of us!

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There's really nothing I can add to what @ADFinlayson and @komodo said in terms of safety. I know from personal experience that a collet can loosen, fortunately I was taking off a <2 mm pass on predrilled soft alder...

Summarised: Use a depth stop and route several shallow passes until you've reached the preset depth. The shallow passes serve a similar purpose to predrilling with a forstner bit, i.e. having the least amount of material to be routed.

AFA pre drilled holes: I like the idea (never remember to use it!) of having a hole at both ends. That should help keeping the ends accurate. Another way to skin that cat is to have a stop block at either end. The bravest ones just draw a mark and stop the router spot on at every pass. The last method either gives me steps or a cavity too long - routing the cavity a tad too short until the last pass should tidy the ends though.

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On ‎5‎/‎6‎/‎2019 at 11:54 PM, Urumiko said:


Ash.. Whats the danger? Genuine question.. Is there danger it will catch and veer off?
 

Hi again

Yes - this.  The problem (one of the problems) with hand routers is that they are SO powerful, there is no way you, the operator, can stop it.  Think in terms of a modest 1.5hp router  That is, one and a half HORSES, bucking against one human being who isn't expecting it ;)

So, if the bit isn't yet up to speed, it will not cut - it will jam.  But the torque is just as high as if it was spinning at 20,000 rpm.  Therefore the body spins instead and the router is wrenched out of your hands.  Actually, we see that happening in your very first cut of the trussrod.  The router catches, pulls out of your grip, meanwhile the blade is spinning up and now does cut - happily this time just making an unplanned chamber at the one end of your truss rod channel.

This will happen every time the bit hits something bigger than it can handle - either because it is trying to cut too deep or because it is cutting too slow.  Starting up a router inside a drill hole gives the ideal opportunity for both of those conditions.

It's why there is the golden rule with hand routers of cutting very small depths (1mm - 2mm is a decent guide) at a time using multiple passes.  Worth remembering that the only piece of metal that is cutting anything at all is the 1-2mm bit of carbide at the edge... 

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Latest vid is up.

Sadly it doesnt feature the health and safety warning i made as I was of the impression i could add this to all of my videos as an opening sequence via seperate upload. Apparently not. It will be on t'others going forward though.

 

 

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I wouldnt mind some opinions/advice on the order i should perform the rest of the tasks on the neck.
Bear in mind 2 things.
1. I can't cut streight freehand for toffee.
2. The palm wood presents some unique chalenges because it tears out so easily. It completeley rules out lateral rasping or routing final lines.

Suggested order
1: Cut front headstock angle (done)
2: Use fence on bandsaw to cut width of tenon up to the start of the neck.
3: Cut the end profile of the tenon.
4: Glue on the fretboard. (im thinking gluing on at this stage will help prevent tearout in the crucual areas at step 5.
5: Cut the widthways profile of the neck using a jig similar to the above video in the bandsaw.
6: Cut the rough rear headstock and neck profile.

7:rest the wood

8:sculpt the rear of the neck via sanding only

9:apply the neck break angle to the heel.

10:shape and drill headstock.

10:appy some form of chemical wood hardener or resin to the palm to try and avoid chipping? (suggestions)?

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Hi again

First of all, compliments on the quality of your videos - meant to say that last time.  Great camera angles, clarity and lighting - makes a refreshing change to many of the build or mod videos you generally see...

I liked the intro.  The basic message of "happy to show you what I'm doing but I'm learning so don't assume this is how it should be done" is a wise message and at least reduces the possibility of inadvertently leading less experienced people into poor or potentially hazardous practices.

Couple of suggestions along the way:

  • The tuners you have picked are amongst the longest string shafts on the market.   I'm assuming they are the self-locking ones.  I stopped using those when I started getting nut angle problems on a Gibson LP despite that company's extreme headstock angle!  Back locked ones are much, much shorter and I would be surprised if you needed to then worry about your headstock angle.  UK wise, these take some beating:

https://www.axesrus.co.uk/Axesrus-Aluminium-Lockers-3x3-Set-p/lc1844an-3x3-setx.htm

There are Gotoh tuners and Hipshot rear locking tuners on the same site but those Axesrus own brand ones above are lightweight and super quality - and misleadingly cheap!!!  They are cheap in £'s but top drawer in quality and performance in my experience.

  • Ditto the nut.  Graphtec do a full-depth LP-style one which is a much deeper body if you wanted to avoid creating a slot in the fretboard

In terms of your sequence, the main thing is simply to think through - based on how you are going to do each step with your facilities - what you will use as your datum or clamping faces and how will you clamp, orientate and cut at each step.  These are different depending what equipment and methods you are going to use.  My method maintains a square face at all times until I don't need one...but that's because of the tools and clamps and equipment I have...or don't have :)

 

Hope the above helps

Andy

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Andyjr1515 said:

Hi again

First of all, compliments on the quality of your videos.

Andy

Thank you sir.. You are too kind.
I still see a lot wrong with them, and am always in fear they are a little slow paced but i guess they are a little better shot than some of the one's i've seen. I long for a camera that i can turn auto focus off on and hook the mic right in to the camera.

Id never thought of switching out my tuners.
This is them:
https://www.thomann.de/gb/harley_benton_parts_locking_tuners_3r_3l_chr.htm?ref=search_prv_8

I was already putting an order in with thomann so took the opertunity to save on shipping.

Its a fair point though that shorter pegs could be a rescue option if needed.

My initial impression after cutting the headstock was that ive managed to pull back a fair bit of thickness though assuming i don't bugger it all up when cutting the rear. And my happy accident has increased the angle of the string on the nut. :).
 

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23 minutes ago, Urumiko said:

Id never thought of switching out my tuners.
This is them:
https://www.thomann.de/gb/harley_benton_parts_locking_tuners_3r_3l_chr.htm?ref=search_prv_8

 

Ah - OK - those are not the ones I thought they were - it's just I thought I recognised the extra-long spindle of the auto-locking ones.

The stringhole of the Axesrus ones is 20mm from the flat face the tuner butts up to.  The bush is 10mm long and then another 10mm from the top of the bush to the middle of the stringhole.  It looks shorter than yours...but might be an optical illusion.

1805993394_Axesrus1.JPG.e769ee9ccdf0d9a12ad2b3dfe01d0e55.JPG

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I still love the tranquil pace of your videos!

Rather than the Fendery slot, how about a lip at the end of the fretboard in case you need to raise the nut? Before you cut, read further...

Veneering the headstock is not (just) a way to hide mistakes, it also adds to the looks. Veneering the bottom side of a headstock even more so, one might even think of it as a luxurious touch especially if you can bend it along the volute. Not to mention that by adding those you can add half a centimetre to the thickness! Plus it would allow adjusting the nut height.

hdstkven.JPG.c3c1aee9bd2f10f7f4e2d6e37add67d0.JPG

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15 hours ago, Bizman62 said:

I still love the tranquil pace of your videos!

Rather than the Fendery slot, how about a lip at the end of the fretboard in case you need to raise the nut? Before you cut, read further...

Veneering the headstock is not (just) a way to hide mistakes, it also adds to the looks. Veneering the bottom side of a headstock even more so, one might even think of it as a luxurious touch especially if you can bend it along the volute. Not to mention that by adding those you can add half a centimetre to the thickness! Plus it would allow adjusting the nut height.

This is now my preferred way to do a headstock cap, now I start the headstock angle at the start of the nut, not the end.  If you get the cap down to 2mm thick when you flatten the protruding end, the flat is just deep enough to fit a 6mm graphtech nut on it 

 

edit: It's just occurred to me that as a serial progress photographer (in fact some times I think I spend more time taking photos of the work than actually doing it) I have photos that explains this much better

TBkhRcRKcXi8upmn96KqZ7XIvz4-cgB-aBdwZrLo

L9WDbSH2DPzebChhX2ea5EgvnPygaBKuCqsH0lhm

ViNXkgvipKlngsj4jPc0RRZVAljXDKabhgmrJNzI

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You asked about preferred order of tasks in neck building. This is the way I've done things over the last couple of builds and currently my preferred order but it has changed almost every build to this point and will probably continue to change with future builds:

- Square off neck black
- Pencil mark everything from truss to headstock angle, where heel starts,  etc
- Route truss rod channel
- Cut headstock angle (front) then plane it flat and square - I like 11º
- Rough cut neck underside profile, headstock angle, volute, heel. I do all the above on the band saw then leave it for a day or two in case it wants to move 
- Glue on headstock veneer then plane it's top edge flat with the top of the neck (creates a flat for the nut to sit on)
- Rough cut the neck taper and headstock shape then leave it a day or two before routing final taper
- Thickness fretboard blank to 6mm and glue it on after installing truss rod :D (I use 6mm Graphtech nuts)
- Trim fretboard edge then route it flush with the neck taper
- Drill access through headstock
- Radius the fretboard
- Thickness the back of the headstock (spindle sander)
- Mark fretslots with centre line and protractor
- Cut fret slots
- Put off inlay work for 2 months :D 
- Inlay fret board and do all the sanding
- Hammer frets in
- Carve the neck
- Levelling, crowning etc.

I always aim to build the neck first in it's entirety, but I nearly always get excited and start carving body half way through neck build. But If you're impatient like me, it's a good idea to be working on the body when giving the neck time move after rough cutting.

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On 5/13/2019 at 6:06 PM, Bizman62 said:

how about a lip at the end of the fretboard

Thanks mate. Yes these are all things im considering.

When i said fender style, i didnt mean fender style. I meant as you say a lip at the end. I've not seen this done before on a guitar though. Have you ever seen this on a production model?

Yes i am considering veneers, I'm guessing they also might afford me the luxury of possibly applying inlays to the veneer before sticking it on.

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Cheers ash,

Only place i think i'll differ from that is i want to carve the neck before doing the inlay etc.. I dont want to waste my time on inlay only to trash the necl later ^_^.

THe thing im dreading most other than the palmwood tear out right now is just actually trying to get things mm accurate.
I keep trying to mark up the heel end to get it neck pocket ready and ending up 1mm out. not that it matters too much i guess.

 

Oh by the way. Your red guitar gt an "OOOOOHHHH thats prety from my other half". lol

Edited by Urumiko

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