mind officially blown - carl verheyen trem setup

[mistermikev]

ok, mind blown.  I've got guitars that don't have this and stay in tune, but have never been able to get a six screw guitar to stay in tune for squat... carl just blew my mind.

he is wanking on a stock mexi strat here... and it goes back perfect.  thought y'all might appreciate.

also, he is just an amazing guitar player.  I've known about him for a while but yeah... just a monster.

 

 

[curtisa]

Some interesting claims in that video. Judging by the intellectual depth of some of the comments, a highly contentious topic too

There's a couple of perhaps misleading comments he makes in his explaination of how he sets it up though. He mentions several times that the intervals he dials in to the amount of available up-pull on the bar is key to getting the guitar to stay in tune. If you set up the bridge to give you a minor 3rd upwards bend on the G, the B and E strings will always bend by the amounts he specifies (whole-step and half-step respectively). That's just the physical properties of the strings, relative tunings, trem fulcrum point and the tensions involved. No amount of diddling with the tension of the springs (equal or unequal) will change that.

His logic for increasing spring tension on the bass side because the bass strings naturally have more tension than the treble perhaps has some merit, although I note that D'Addario's string tension guide only shows a difference of a few pounds for a 10-46 set of strings. Interestingly, the strings that exhibit the biggest pull are actually the D and A strings, which would perhaps bias tension more towards the middle of the claw, rather than the bass side. Would that much of an angle on the spring claw make that much difference, especially if the maximum string tension is perhaps one third off-centre?

Perhaps the biggest issue that pops up in my head is that irrespective of which side you bias the spring tension, the Strat bridge is still a big lump of rigid steel that is hinged at one point. As he rightly points out, spring tension needs to equal string tension, but with a rigid fulcrum and single point of leverage that will always be true no matter which way you bias the spring tension using the claw. Maybe it makes sense to equalise the tension to equalise the amount of friction on the bass and treble fulcrum screws, which in turn may help the trem find its resting point more reliably, but I suspect that isn't where the biggest problems lie in a floating trems.

There also appears to be a slight conflation of the tuning stability issues on the Strat bridge. I suspect he's actually talking about tuning issues surrounding getting the bridge to reliably return to its equilibrium point after using the bar. This shouldn't be confused with tuning issues surrounding what can happen to the strings after using the trem - binding in the nut, slipping on the tuning posts, snagging in the string trees, stretching behind the saddle etc. I wonder what other setup optimisations he had done on that 'off-the-shelf' TexMex Strat prior to being filmed that he didn't mention? - graphite dust in the nut slots, proper adjustment of the fulcrum screws, new strings stretched out fully, properly wound strings on the posts...

[mistermikev]

8 hours ago, curtisa said:

Some interesting claims in that video. Judging by the intellectual depth of some of the comments, a highly contentious topic too

There's a couple of perhaps misleading comments he makes in his explaination of how he sets it up though. He mentions several times that the intervals he dials in to the amount of available up-pull on the bar is key to getting the guitar to stay in tune. If you set up the bridge to give you a minor 3rd upwards bend on the G, the B and E strings will always bend by the amounts he specifies (whole-step and half-step respectively). That's just the physical properties of the strings, relative tunings, trem fulcrum point and the tensions involved. No amount of diddling with the tension of the springs (equal or unequal) will change that.

His logic for increasing spring tension on the bass side because the bass strings naturally have more tension than the treble perhaps has some merit, although I note that D'Addario's string tension guide only shows a difference of a few pounds for a 10-46 set of strings. Interestingly, the strings that exhibit the biggest pull are actually the D and A strings, which would perhaps bias tension more towards the middle of the claw, rather than the bass side. Would that much of an angle on the spring claw make that much difference, especially if the maximum string tension is perhaps one third off-centre?

Perhaps the biggest issue that pops up in my head is that irrespective of which side you bias the spring tension, the Strat bridge is still a big lump of rigid steel that is hinged at one point. As he rightly points out, spring tension needs to equal string tension, but with a rigid fulcrum and single point of leverage that will always be true no matter which way you bias the spring tension using the claw. Maybe it makes sense to equalise the tension to equalise the amount of friction on the bass and treble fulcrum screws, which in turn may help the trem find its resting point more reliably, but I suspect that isn't where the biggest problems lie in a floating trems.

There also appears to be a slight conflation of the tuning stability issues on the Strat bridge. I suspect he's actually talking about tuning issues surrounding getting the bridge to reliably return to its equilibrium point after using the bar. This shouldn't be confused with tuning issues surrounding what can happen to the strings after using the trem - binding in the nut, slipping on the tuning posts, snagging in the string trees, stretching behind the saddle etc. I wonder what other setup optimisations he had done on that 'off-the-shelf' TexMex Strat prior to being filmed that he didn't mention? - graphite dust in the nut slots, proper adjustment of the fulcrum screws, new strings stretched out fully, properly wound strings on the posts...

first off... I see a lot of credibility here based on the fact that he's not selling me anything.  I found this video by watching another pro's video on youtube.  he casually mentioned it in passing.  Had to rewind to even hear what he said... and then go hunting for info.

I think you are saying - it seems unlikely that you'd get more than one interval regardless... and that stuck out to me too.  I immediately wondered if there was an offset of the screws on top.  Was thinking - I'll have to check that out because it just doesn't seem possible - but then who knows.  He does seem to make it work in the video.

afa tension - I had no idea that it wouldn't be the low e with most and high e with least.  esp since it always seem like those are the strings that go out first.

also, I'm guessing at a minimum... he must use nut sauce and I'm guessing brand new strings.  I've notice with one of my guitars that stays perfect - it only does so for about a week or two... once the strings become old - no worky.  Obviously it doesn't work until the new strings are thoroughly stretched too.  I would bet one also has to ensure there is no binding at the saddle. 

long story short - I'm glad I shared it and even more glad for your feedback.  I've been playing and setting up guitars for 35yrs and never even considered this.  Thought I knew everything... but admittedly can't get a damn 6 screw to stay in tune even when it's decked let alone floating!

def gonna have to try it.

thank you again for the detailed response!

 

[mistermikev]

ok, just tried this on a 2 pt trem... there is def something to it. 

A) guitar stays in tune perfect

hi e strings bends less than low e: I have no idea why but I suspect the difference in tension.

only change I made was floating my bridge and angle of the trem claw - as much angle as possible.  tuned low e to bend up whole step and now high e bends half step.  bends are not pitch accurate as you approach the middle.

If this was myth busters I would throw a big metal VERIFIED on here.

[Bizman62]

Isn't that somewhat similar to

https://youtu.be/7luUzgDwwcs

[mistermikev]

4 minutes ago, Bizman62 said:

Isn't that somewhat similar to

https://youtu.be/7luUzgDwwcs

there are certainly similarities there... but not really.  the key point was the offset of the claw. 

[curtisa]

7 hours ago, mistermikev said:

only change I made was floating my bridge and angle of the trem claw - as much angle as possible.  tuned low e to bend up whole step and now high e bends half step.  bends are not pitch accurate as you approach the middle.

If this was myth busters I would throw a big metal VERIFIED on here.

Now try setting the claw straight and adjusting spring tension so the same degree of float is achieved. Retune if necesaary. Change nothing else. Does the trem still stay in tune as well as with an angled claw given the same amount of bar usage?

 

9 hours ago, mistermikev said:

I think you are saying - it seems unlikely that you'd get more than one interval regardless... and that stuck out to me too.  I immediately wondered if there was an offset of the screws on top.  Was thinking - I'll have to check that out because it just doesn't seem possible - but then who knows.  He does seem to make it work in the video.

Judging by the quick and dirty hunt I went on yesterday evening regarding Carl's video (it's quite an old story, actually. The video is over 9 years old) a lot of people seem to be getting hung up on the intervals thing behind his trem setup. Almost all trems will bend those three strings by the amounts specified given enough up-pull clearance. There is no magical adjustment you can do on the claw that changes this. There is also no adjustment you can make that will change the relative intervals of each string. If the trem is adjusted such that the G string can be bent upwards by a minor 3rd, then the B will always go up by a whole tone and the E always by a half tone. The physical properties of the strings themselves govern this behaviour, not the trem. This is also the reason why when you do a double-stop bend on the B and G strings, you get a whole-tone bend on the G while simultaneously getting a (approximately) half-tone bend on the B, despite the amount of lateral displacement on both strings being equal.

I have three guitars here with different trems - a PRS with a 6-point bridge, a Tele thing with a Wilkinson VS100 2-point trem and a pointy stick with an original Floyd Rose. The PRS has four springs, the other two have three. All are strung 10-46. Claws are straight. On each of them I can get the same intervals (minor 3rd, whole tone, semi-tone) if I raise the bar to the same degree.

Carl's video glosses over a lot of the true technicalities of his setup and omits key information. His claim at 1:53 that, 'string tension on the top needs to equal spring tension on the back, and once you do you stay perfectly in tune' is perhaps a poor choice of words on his part as it implies that floating the trem is the key thing that guarantees in-tuneness. It is further mudied when he suggests that angling the claw is responisble for the bend intervals at around 2:55, when it's easy to demonstrate that it's not. Again, I assume that's actually not what he meant and his explaination wasn't well-worded. It's what he's not telling you about how the guitar is set up that will be more important.

As I said before, I suspect that if there's any merit to the angled claw thing having any bearing on tuning stability it will be surrounding the equalisation of the forces being exerted on the fulrum screws that may be causing the trem to not return to equilibrium properly. Whether those unequal forces are enough to make a traditional 6-point trem misbehave in such a way that this is a valid method of fixing the issue, I'd have to approach with a degree of caution.

[mistermikev]

6 minutes ago, curtisa said:

Now try setting the claw straight and adjusting spring tension so the same degree of float is achieved. Retune if necesaary. Change nothing else. Does the trem still stay in tune as well as with an angled claw given the same amount of bar usage?

 

Judging by the quick and dirty hunt I went on yesterday evening regarding Carl's video (it's quite an old story, actually. The video is over 9 years old) a lot of people seem to be getting hung up on the intervals thing behind his trem setup. Almost all trems will bend those three strings by the amounts specified given enough up-pull clearance. There is no magical adjustment you can do on the claw that changes this. There is also no adjustment you can make that will change the relative intervals of each string. If the trem is adjusted such that the G string can be bent upwards by a minor 3rd, then the B will always go up by a whole tone and the E always by a half tone. The physical properties of the strings themselves govern this behaviour, not the trem. This is also the reason why when you do a double-stop bend on the B and G strings, you get a whole-tone bend on the G while simultaneously getting a (approximately) half-tone bend on the B, despite the amount of lateral displacement on both strings being equal.

I have three guitars here with different trems - a PRS with a 6-point bridge, a Tele thing with a Wilkinson VS100 2-point trem and a pointy stick with an original Floyd Rose. The PRS has four springs, the other two have three. All are strung 10-46. Claws are straight. On each of them I can get the same intervals (minor 3rd, whole tone, semi-tone) if I raise the bar to the same degree.

Carl's video glosses over a lot of the true technicalities of his setup and omits key information. His claim at 1:53 that, 'string tension on the top needs to equal spring tension on the back, and once you do you stay perfectly in tune' is perhaps a poor choice of words on his part as it implies that floating the trem is the key thing that guarantees in-tuneness. It is further mudied when he suggests that angling the claw is responisble for the bend intervals at around 2:55, when it's easy to demonstrate that it's not. Again, I assume that's actually not what he meant and his explaination wasn't well-worded. It's what he's not telling you about how the guitar is set up that will be more important.

As I said before, I suspect that if there's any merit to the angled claw thing having any bearing on tuning stability it will be surrounding the equalisation of the forces being exerted on the fulrum screws that may be causing the trem to not return to equilibrium properly. Whether those unequal forces are enough to make a traditional 6-point trem misbehave in such a way that this is a valid method of fixing the issue, I'd have to approach with a degree of caution.

had set the claw straight before... had floated with 3 and 2 strings, had it decked with two and 3 strings low tension and high tension... nothing I did would allow the low e string to return perfect except setting the claw at an angle. 

"1:53 that, 'string tension on the top needs to equal spring tension on the back"  what I thought he meant was top (high e) vs bottom (low e) tension needs to be equal in the sense that there should be less tension on spring behind high e vs more tension on spring corresponding to low e.  seems to have worked for me.  have old strings on right now... but still it is a noticeable improvement over having it decked and high string tension.  It is returning to a point where an e chord is not noticeably out of tune wherease before... it was pretty bad.  I'm now divebombing it and returning 97% in tune.  I suspect with some nut sauce and new strings it'd be perfect.

[mistermikev]

also, good info about the relative pitch change... I guess I just never noticed this before. 

[curtisa]

1 hour ago, mistermikev said:

had set the claw straight before... had floated with 3 and 2 strings, had it decked with two and 3 strings low tension and high tension... nothing I did would allow the low e string to return perfect except setting the claw at an angle. 

Interesting. I guess your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to find out why it makes a difference

I don't have any true equivalents of a 6-point Strat in my posession, but I don't recall ever being able to do divebombs on any of my non-locking guitars without suffering some tuning troubles. To be fair, Carl isn't demonstrating high degrees of trem abuse when he claims he 'never has tuning problems' either. A couple of dips and a handful of up-swings is hardly Satriani or Vai territory

[mistermikev]

challenge accepted!  I just broke a string on my vs100 guitar so... will have to restring that. 

I have two non locking guitars that stay in tune almost perfect.  1 is a strat with a babicz.  Now that I have seen this... I have no idea why that one works as good as it does.  it is decked... but I can seriously abuse it and it will come right back.

now the vs100 comes right back.  I'm going to go play with my guitar with 6 screw and see if I can improve it.  I'll do a quick video clip sometime this week with my results.

[curtisa]

Here's some more food for thought. I found this quoted on another forum that was supposedly by the man himself. I've emphasised certain parts to highlight what's probably the missing information from his video, namely there's a lot more to his method than merely setting an angle in the trem claw for maintaining tuning stability:

Quote

I have worked on this concept for many years and I have found it is all about equalizing and balancing the tension between SPRINGS AND STRINGS. Here follows the information sent with my signature "Balanced Bridge" strings made by Thomastik-Infeld in Vienna, Austria.
Verheyen Stratocaster Full Floating Tremolo Bridge Setup

For the last 20 years the Fender Stratocaster has been my main guitar. When working with the bridge setup I always strive for the most musical and in-tune mechanical operation I can find. I’ve asked hundreds of players about their setup and over the years I’ve come up with my own method that always returns to pitch and has many musical benefits as well. The method described works best when the tuners are working properly, the nut has been properly cut so string don’t bind, the neck truss rod properly adjusted and the six (or 2) mounting screws that fasten the bridge plate provide proper freedom of movement.

At the heart of the setup is balancing spring tension with string tension by adjusting the two long spring tension adjusting screws at the “claw” to which the tremolo springs are attached to the steel tremolo block. Use 3 springs from the tremolo block to the claw: furthest position left, furthest position right and center; do NOT set the outside springs at an angle.

1) Begin by adjusting the 2 screws of the claw so that when you pull UP on the tremolo arm and the bridge is in contact with the body the G string pulls up a minor 3rd. This will make the B string rise a whole step and the E string a half step. The mechanics of the system should first make musical sense. You will end up with an “Angled Claw” which is exactly what you’re looking for.

2) Next, adjust the screw on the bass side of the claw (closest to the low E string) so that when you pull up on the tremolo arm and the bridge is in contact with the body, the A and D string when fretted at the 5th fret (D and G) rise a whole step to E and A.

3) You may have to go back and forth a few times between the two adjusting screws until the bridge is stable and the intervals described are true. And you’ll need to correct the intonation by adjusting the bridge saddles.

4) When all is right and balanced between springs and strings, the Am7 barre chord on the 5th fret should sound like it is descending musically to an Abm7 when the bar is slightly depressed. It won't be perfect but it's a very musical sound you're after and should achieve. This effect is ideal for “shaking” chords and applying a manual tremolo to your voicings.

5) I use a Teflon lubricant (sold in electronic shops) under the strings at the nut slots and where the strings contact the string tree(s). You only need to use a little lube; wipe away any excess.

6) I try to use the minimum windings on the string posts, preferring just one if possible. My bass strings leave the post at the top; my trebles wind down and leave the post at the bottom.

7) There is a short video of me explaining the whole process at
VIDEO Carl Verheyen's Strat set-up 1.01 It was recorded a few years back in Amsterdam …….it may also help!

All the best,

Carl Verheyen

Step 1 in his method, above actually makes no sense to me whatsoever. You can distribute the spring tension any which way you like, but as soon as you have enough float in the bridge to give you that minor 3rd pitch rise on the G, then the B and E strings cannot do anything other than rise by a whole tone and semi-tone respsectively. The implication that you will naturally end up with the claw at an angle to target specific intervals on three strings is a red herring.

Step 2 only further highlights how the strings behave when bent by equal amounts. On all trem'ed guitars the D and A strings will rise at roughly equal rates. The spring tension has no bearing on this behaviour. The fact that they rise a whole tone by the time the trem bottoms out is just a happy accident, same as the B and E strings relative to the G.

The video that is missing from the above quote can be found here. Curiously he goes through the whole springs vs strings spiel that he espouses on the video at the top of this thread, but he actually contradicts himself (2:10 - 3:10) with regards to which strings have the most tension and his subsequent justification for setting the claw angle.

Out of interest I tried setting up my Wilkinson VS100 trem with an angled claw and I honestly can't tell the difference in terms of stability. In fact, in order to get the proposed angle while maintaining the G string minor 3rd clearance, the treble-side spring is loose enough to go completely slack on the up-pull and threatens to come off the block altogether The tuning survives a few divebombs moderately OK, but then again so does the PRS with a straight claw. Returning the VS100 to a straight claw - no difference.

Maybe my guitars are set up such they don't benefit from an angled claw, but the more I think about it, experiment with it and explore the technicalities the less I'm convinced. Carl's explainations and contradicting video statements don't do much to support his theory either.

[mistermikev]

no time like the present...

 

for the record: I jacked with my spring tension a little more, and screwed in my hi e string trem screw and it is improved a bit from the video.  I'd say 98% in tune after a divebomb.  that's a pretty big feat on a 6 screw trem imo.

[mistermikev]

3 hours ago, curtisa said:

Here's some more food for thought. I found this quoted on another forum that was supposedly by the man himself. I've emphasised certain parts to highlight what's probably the missing information from his video, namely there's a lot more to his method than merely setting an angle in the trem claw for maintaining tuning stability:

Step 1 in his method, above actually makes no sense to me whatsoever. You can distribute the spring tension any which way you like, but as soon as you have enough float in the bridge to give you that minor 3rd pitch rise on the G, then the B and E strings cannot do anything other than rise by a whole tone and semi-tone respsectively. The implication that you will naturally end up with the claw at an angle to target specific intervals on three strings is a red herring.

Step 2 only further highlights how the strings behave when bent by equal amounts. On all trem'ed guitars the D and A strings will rise at roughly equal rates. The spring tension has no bearing on this behaviour. The fact that they rise a whole tone by the time the trem bottoms out is just a happy accident, same as the B and E strings relative to the G.

The video that is missing from the above quote can be found here. Curiously he goes through the whole springs vs strings spiel that he espouses on the video at the top of this thread, but he actually contradicts himself (2:10 - 3:10) with regards to which strings have the most tension and his subsequent justification for setting the claw angle.

Out of interest I tried setting up my Wilkinson VS100 trem with an angled claw and I honestly can't tell the difference in terms of stability. In fact, in order to get the proposed angle while maintaining the G string minor 3rd clearance, the treble-side spring is loose enough to go completely slack on the up-pull and threatens to come off the block altogether The tuning survives a few divebombs moderately OK, but then again so does the PRS with a straight claw. Returning the VS100 to a straight claw - no difference.

Maybe my guitars are set up such they don't benefit from an angled claw, but the more I think about it, experiment with it and explore the technicalities the less I'm convinced. Carl's explainations and contradicting video statements don't do much to support his theory either.

having tried this... I think your comment on step 1 is verified.  all i did was set the claw at an angle.  just tuned the g string to pitch when bending up.  that caused all strings to bend at specified intervals.  after the vid above I observed that the low e was coming back flat... so gave it more and more tension till it came back perfect.  Now it stays in tune perfect. 

going back to vs100 comment - i have a babicz w straight claw that stays in tune perfect... but I wonder if the actual springs there have differing tensions.  I can tell you that my vs100 - I had issues getting it to return perfect.  once I angled the claw... 98% there. 

the vid above: I made zero other changes.  strings are old.  nut is cut right, but tuners aren't great.  this trem never returned in tune even with graph tech saddles. 

[curtisa]

So judging by your video, you're still seeing at least the D and G strings go sharp, and perhaps the B a hair flat after some pretty serious bar usage. That's about on par with what I experienced with all my non-locking trem-equipped guitars, claw angled or not.

I'd still be curious to see what difference it makes with the claw straight in your case. That should just be a case of putting a few turns on the treble side and taking a few off the bass. You could even do something totally heretical and angle the claw the opposite way Carl advocates and see what that does too.

I'm still struggling to see what angling the claw does to improve tuning on what appears to be individual strings. In your case you seem to be getting tuning issues on a couple of strings (which is what I would have expected for a non-locking trem). If you were having tuning problems due to overall spring vs string tension I would've thought it would affect the whole bridge, not certain strings.

The other thing that struck me last night while nodding off to sleep is that CVs angling technique actually doesn't equalise the pressure exerted on the outer fulrum points at all; it actually does the opposite. The bass strings exert the most tension and his logic is to put more spring tension on the bass-side to compensate. But this also makes the bass-side fulcrum screw see more pressure than the treble. So I've got no idea what's going on.

[mistermikev]

6 minutes ago, curtisa said:

So judging by your video, you're still seeing at least the D and G strings go sharp, and perhaps the B a hair flat after some pretty serious bar usage. That's about on par with what I experienced with all my non-locking trem-equipped guitars, claw angled or not.

I'd still be curious to see what difference it makes with the claw straight in your case. That should just be a case of putting a few turns on the treble side and taking a few off the bass. You could even do something totally heretical and angle the claw the opposite way Carl advocates and see what that does too.

I'm still struggling to see what angling the claw does to improve tuning on what appears to be individual strings. In your case you seem to be getting tuning issues on a couple of strings (which is what I would have expected for a non-locking trem). If you were having tuning problems due to overall spring vs string tension I would've thought it would affect the whole bridge, not certain strings.

The other thing that struck me last night while nodding off to sleep is that CVs angling technique actually doesn't equalise the pressure exerted on the outer fulrum points at all; it actually does the opposite. The bass strings exert the most tension and his logic is to put more spring tension on the bass-side to compensate. But this also makes the bass-side fulcrum screw see more pressure than the treble. So I've got no idea what's going on.

c'mon curtisa... me and carl verheyen are over at the water drinking and hopin' you'll join us!!! 

seriously tho... I've had this guitar decked and it didn't stay in tune as well as it does right now with the trem floating.  I know exactly what will happen if I change the tension from what it is right now because I zeroed in on this spot (after that video I fine tuned a bit more).  the low e was coming back a hair flat - so I increased spring tension and it improved.  high e was sharp... so I loosened tension.  It's not as good as a floyd (obviously) but better than any 6 screw I've ever played.  Up until now it never occurred to me that you might want something other than a squared trem claw... so forgive my fan-boyism... it has sort of been a revelation for me.

 

 

 

[curtisa]

Fair enough. Can't say I agree with the logic behind what's going on, but if it works for you then all good.

Now, the tonal differences due to left-hand thread pickup slugs in the southern hemisphere vs northern. That's an easy one

 

[mistermikev]

hehe... yeah probably ruined the tone by floating the bridge... I mean... no longer making contact with the tonewood so... probably just revert back!

[ADFinlayson]

12 hours ago, mistermikev said:

hehe... yeah probably ruined the tone by floating the bridge... I mean... no longer making contact with the tonewood so... probably just revert back!

It's a strat so tonelacquer would be more accurate

 

[mistermikev]

hadn't even considered that... this is a poly finish so... good for polytones but not much else. ;)

[ADFinlayson]

1 hour ago, mistermikev said:

hadn't even considered that... this is a poly finish so... good for polytones but not much else.

That's good to know, I've always been crap at polyrhythms. All this time I just had to get my mexi strat out.

[mistermikev]

32 minutes ago, ADFinlayson said:

That's good to know, I've always been crap at polyrhythms. All this time I just had to get my mexi strat out.

except if it's satin poly... then you just play knights in white satin over and over... pretty boring.

[Bizman62]

You guys are getting polyamorous!

[mistermikev]

don't get me started on my 9 wives...

[Bizman62]

Are you related to Elmer Fudd?