mind officially blown - carl verheyen trem setup

[mistermikev]

26 minutes ago, Bizman62 said:

Are you related to Elmer Fudd?

no... but I used to work on roofs... tar jobs that needed to be re-done.  friends called me ted.  they'd say "oh look, here comes re-tar ted".  sometimes they'd call me three tar ted.

[ScottR]

[Ronkirn]

On 6/9/2019 at 1:27 AM, curtisa said:

Some interesting claims in that video. Judging by the intellectual depth of some of the comments, a highly contentious topic too

I have to agree... I've seen some of his other posts over the years...  Generally the "science" is based more on internet hooplah than actual reality..

the simple truth is the tremolo has inherent flaws... to advert them you have to have a deep understanding of the mechanical fiuunctionality AND the metallurgical properties of the alloys used to make the strings...

fortunately... superb guitarists have managed to navigate the foibles of tremolo annoyance and still produce superb music, through the years, you can too..

there is no magic spring placement, etc that will solve the problems.. and as long as the guitar is setup well..  You will do well...

one point, where he says "string tension on the top has to equal spring tension on the back" is absolutely correct.. but what he apparently is unaware of is that tension is "filtered" through the tremolo pivots...  or . . . you cannot have more tension on the treble side and less on the bass side... the cumulative tension of all the strings collide with the mechanics of the fulcrum point(s) and the string side "sees" it as all the same, not a bit from one string, and more from the next string..

The number one problem with Tremolo issues is the way guys use them... Dick Dale used them correctly, most of the "banger" groups use them incorrectly... 

If you try to rip the mechanism from the guitar to achieve some kinda dramatic effect you will be successful, the effect will be consistently out of tune guitars...  Its a tremolo, its NOT an FX . .

rk

[mistermikev]

On 6/9/2019 at 5:25 PM, curtisa said:

Now try setting the claw straight and adjusting spring tension so the same degree of float is achieved. Retune if necesaary. Change nothing else. Does the trem still stay in tune as well as with an angled claw given the same amount of bar usage?

 

Judging by the quick and dirty hunt I went on yesterday evening regarding Carl's video (it's quite an old story, actually. The video is over 9 years old) a lot of people seem to be getting hung up on the intervals thing behind his trem setup. Almost all trems will bend those three strings by the amounts specified given enough up-pull clearance. There is no magical adjustment you can do on the claw that changes this. There is also no adjustment you can make that will change the relative intervals of each string. If the trem is adjusted such that the G string can be bent upwards by a minor 3rd, then the B will always go up by a whole tone and the E always by a half tone. The physical properties of the strings themselves govern this behaviour, not the trem. This is also the reason why when you do a double-stop bend on the B and G strings, you get a whole-tone bend on the G while simultaneously getting a (approximately) half-tone bend on the B, despite the amount of lateral displacement on both strings being equal.

I have three guitars here with different trems - a PRS with a 6-point bridge, a Tele thing with a Wilkinson VS100 2-point trem and a pointy stick with an original Floyd Rose. The PRS has four springs, the other two have three. All are strung 10-46. Claws are straight. On each of them I can get the same intervals (minor 3rd, whole tone, semi-tone) if I raise the bar to the same degree.

Carl's video glosses over a lot of the true technicalities of his setup and omits key information. His claim at 1:53 that, 'string tension on the top needs to equal spring tension on the back, and once you do you stay perfectly in tune' is perhaps a poor choice of words on his part as it implies that floating the trem is the key thing that guarantees in-tuneness. It is further mudied when he suggests that angling the claw is responisble for the bend intervals at around 2:55, when it's easy to demonstrate that it's not. Again, I assume that's actually not what he meant and his explaination wasn't well-worded. It's what he's not telling you about how the guitar is set up that will be more important.

As I said before, I suspect that if there's any merit to the angled claw thing having any bearing on tuning stability it will be surrounding the equalisation of the forces being exerted on the fulrum screws that may be causing the trem to not return to equilibrium properly. Whether those unequal forces are enough to make a traditional 6-point trem misbehave in such a way that this is a valid method of fixing the issue, I'd have to approach with a degree of caution.

total necro bump here -as the kids say... but was thinking about this as the topic came up on the axe fx forum.

so... it would seem like this "shouldn't" work... yet for me and lots of other folks... it does at least 'seem' to work and I wonder why?  Was thinking that perhaps the tightening of one spring allows that spring to act as a "coarse adjust" of tension while the other spring acts as a "fine adjust"?  IOW perhaps it's just making it easier to zero in on the 'right' amount of tension?  have had success with it on a 6 screw, a 2 post, and even a fulcrum style tremolo.  I dunno... just a thought.

[curtisa]

Oh God. Not again

OK, here's another thing to try - buy yourself a set of D'Addario Balanced Tension strings and install them on one of your trem-equipped Strats. If there's any merit to this whatsoever (and I suspect there is none, and what most people are experiencing is nothing more than the power of suggestion), if you straighten the claw you will have identical tuning stability performance to a normal set of strings with an angled claw. Conversely, if the theory holds water, if you leave the claw angled with the BT string set you'll see poorer tuning stability.

[mistermikev]

25 minutes ago, curtisa said:

Oh God. Not again

OK, here's another thing to try - buy yourself a set of D'Addario Balanced Tension strings and install them on one of your trem-equipped Strats. If there's any merit to this whatsoever (and I suspect there is none, and what most people are experiencing is nothing more than the power of suggestion), if you straighten the claw you will have identical tuning stability performance to a normal set of strings with an angled claw. Conversely, if the theory holds water, if you leave the claw angled with the BT string set you'll see poorer tuning stability.

well... balanced tension strings... have not heard of them.  Will have to try that.  again, I'm not certain that it is anything to do with the strings themselves... you and other folks have quite convinced me of that... given that I've observed a difference... and tested it by trying to straighten the claw and consistently had less stability... there must be 'some' explanation.  anywho, I very much appreciate the reply!

also, happy new year!

[curtisa]

1 hour ago, mistermikev said:

again, I'm not certain that it is anything to do with the strings themselves

It probably isn't, but the fundamental backbone of Carl's theory behind the angled claw thing is to match the tension of the strings with the springs. So to test his theory you can try equalising the tension on both sides of the tremolo by using a set of strings that exert close to the same tension across all six.

And you get to try a new set of strings that you otherwise wouldn't have known about

Interesting factoid - the Carl Verheyen signature string set from Dean Markley was gauged 9-12-16-26-37-46. He appears to have also (later?) had a signature set with DR which replaced the 12 'B' with an 11. Both string sets are quite unbalanced tension-wise (try inputting the string gauges into a string tension calculator to see the effect) and just adds weirdness to his claim that he's equalising tension with the claw.

And a happy new year back atcha.

[mistermikev]

17 minutes ago, curtisa said:

It probably isn't, but the fundamental backbone of Carl's theory behind the angled claw thing is to match the tension of the strings with the springs. So to test his theory you can try equalising the tension on both sides of the tremolo by using a set of strings that exert close to the same tension across all six.

And you get to try a new set of strings that you otherwise wouldn't have known about

Interesting factoid - the Carl Verheyen signature string set from Dean Markley was gauged 9-12-16-26-37-46. He appears to have also (later?) had a signature set with DR which replaced the 12 'B' with an 11. Both string sets are quite unbalanced tension-wise (try inputting the string gauges into a string tension calculator to see the effect) and just adds weirdness to his claim that he's equalising tension with the claw.

And a happy new year back atcha.

hehe, well in carls defense I think he is evening out the tension... just not where he thinks it is.  the even tension strings.... the concept doesn't seem possible.... but what do I know!  I'm in... I'll try it!!