Epiphone Special Repaint

[mistermikev]

2 hours ago, Frankdemariany said:

Gotcha and then either put a new logo or somehow get off the Epiphone...

Thanks! 

lots of options there... you could buy some clear waterslide decal stock and print on inkjet(most common printer),   if you want black headstock then you'll just have to paint in some details on the decal or mask off an area of the headstock and paint it white and put a color decal with black edges over it.  I/we can walk you through that when you get to it.

[Bizman62]

20 hours ago, Frankdemariany said:

When sanding...I am also sanding the front side as well with the Epiphone on it? 

Yes, as @mistermikev said. Since there seems to be no major bruises in the headstock you can go quite light on sanding. For level surfaces use a relatively small (2"x3" - 2"x4") block with a flat bottom - an offcut is just fine. Rounding one edge may help in areas where a level surface bends like the bottom side of the headstock meeting the neck. My favourite all-round block is roughly a 3.5" piece of 2"x2". It has a flat bottom with a quarter cylindrical tip, the sides being square to the bottom. The top is concave. All edges are rounded  to prevent dents.

Remember, don't put weight on the sanding paper! This has been said several times but repetition is the mother of learning. If you press the paper, you'll only clog it and make a mess. Imagine the grit as millions of minuscule scrapers! You wouldn't even try to sink the full height of a scraper to the object you're scraping, only the very edge will touch it. The same principle applies to sanding paper.

Another option to restore the Epiphone logo is to use white paint and a small brush. Or you can make a stencil out of masking tape or printable sticker and use white spray paint.

[Frankdemariany]

Thank you both so much. I'll be working on the sanding of the neck this weekend so more updates and questions to come.

[mistermikev]

15 hours ago, Frankdemariany said:

Thank you both so much. I'll be working on the sanding of the neck this weekend so more updates and questions to come.

rock on and your welcome.

[Frankdemariany]

On 6/28/2019 at 3:01 AM, Bizman62 said:

800 grit seems quite fine for sanding a well cured finish to the wood. After all, there must be at least a quarter of a millimetre of hard plastic like material to be removed!

There's two ways to go, both with some caveats.

The first option requires a semi-flawless existing surface. In such case sanding the guitar matte with 800 grit is good enough. After that you'd need some sanding primer, preferably of a contrasting colour. Paint your guitar with that to fill any scratches and gaps and sand it flush. After that you can then apply the final colour in several layers with sanding in between, the final sanding before buffing done with grits up to 2000 wet. The biggest issue with that is that the paint layer will end up being quite thick which may change the way the guitar resonates.

The second option, which I'd prefer, is to sand it to bare wood or at least to the initial primer. Most likely there's a white coat under the black so if you get most of the black out and replace it with the TV yellow the end result should be of equal thickness with the original. Start with some 240 - 320 grit and sand in one direction only to remove about half of the black layer to a stripy grey-ish with the primer lurking through but no wood visible. Go up to 400 grit and sand diagonally (45 deg) to the previous direction until you've removed all grooves showing the direction of the first sanding. You still should have some black left. Go up to 600 and change the direction again to remove the grooves of the 400 grit. Change to 800 grit and again change the direction by another 45 deg. That should leave you with the original primer surface mostly intact with some black blotches here and there. You should now have a good surface for repainting.

This site provides some good information about sandpapers and the grits used for various tasks: https://www.automotivetouchup.com/sandpaperselection.aspx

Lastly, and this is the most important thing to remember: DON'T APPLY PRESSURE when you're sanding!! The weight of your palm is plenty enough. Let the paper do the job and just move it around. As you know, sandpaper consists of myriads of tiny chips and no matter how hard you press you can't make them go deeper into the material than what they protrude from the backing paper. On the contrary. Think about mowing lawn: You can't make the grass shorter by using a roller, the culms have to stand in order to be cut.

Okay so I started with a small part of the neck and did exactly how you said. To me it doesn't look like there's a primer unless this is a clear primer? 

It took a lot to get it to the picture below. I'm assuming that's enough for this to be ready for repainting? 

Any advice and/or suggestions is greatly appreciated. 

Thank you. 

 

[Bizman62]

Umm... Sorry to say but if you're going for the thinnest possible layer of new paint you'll have to sand much, much more, As the image shows you have scratches at least in two directions. I know it's tedious but for a good finish it has to be done. Any visible scratches will shine as canyons on the fresh paint! Just get a finer grit paper, don't press, and sand in another direction until you've made all the sanding marks vanish. Caution: Don't change the shape of the corners of the heel! If it's only paint you've removed, that's no issue. If you take much wood away, the contact to the neck cavity will suffer, potentially causing several issues.

AFA primer, they may have used black primer which may be the line where you've sanded down to bare wood. They've also most likely used a pore filler, either clear or matching with the wood. That may have provided a good enough base for painting without any primer.

[Frankdemariany]

Okay so here are more updates on the neck. 

The hand tool I got came with a sheet of 120 and I started with that and then worked my way up to the 800. It took me quite a while to get to the pics below. The challenging part is going to be the corners. Any tips for that is appreciated!

 

[Bizman62]

Oh, so you're going to bare wood! Not a bad choice for getting the thinnest possible layer of paint (for better sustain) or even an oiled neck.

5 hours ago, Frankdemariany said:

The challenging part is going to be the corners. Any tips for that is appreciated!

A 5" piece of broomstick with sanding paper wrapped over it is pretty good. You can even use it like a spokeshave with both hands for better guidance in areas where keeping the angle right is required. A folded or rolled piece of sandpaper can also be useful as it can be adapted just for the size and shape needed. A scraper of some sort is also handy. In delicate areas a single edge razor blade can be the best tool.

And yes, it will take time. Getting the surface perfect for finishing is the most time consuming part of the process.

If you're just going to repaint the body, don't take it to bare wood! 120 grit paper is for removing material quickly, but for just preparing the body for painting you can start with 320 or 400 grit and go up to 800 to make the surface matte. You'll most likely find some dents shining bright on the sanded surface. In those cases simply use some very fine putty and sand them flush.

 

[Frankdemariany]

4 hours ago, Bizman62 said:

Oh, so you're going to bare wood! Not a bad choice for getting the thinnest possible layer of paint (for better sustain) or even an oiled neck..

If you're just going to repaint the body, don't take it to bare wood! 120 grit paper is for removing material quickly, but for just preparing the body for painting you can start with 320 or 400 grit and go up to 800 to make the surface matte. You'll most likely find some dents shining bright on the sanded surface. In those cases simply use some very fine putty and sand them flush.

 

Ah so I really don’t need to take it to the wood?

So really what I’m looking for is to get it to a very dull grayish color? Then that would be enough for the primer and then eventually main color? 

Is my thinking right there? 

 

Thanks. 

[Bizman62]

4 hours ago, Frankdemariany said:

So really what I’m looking for is to get it to a very dull grayish color? Then that would be enough for the primer and then eventually main color? 

Exactly that. If the surface stays intact other than being dull gray the old paint will work as a primer. The matte surface will provide a good grip for the new paint. A tiny spot down to bare wood here and there won't matter but supposedly you shouldn't get that deep anyway. Primer would be needed if the surface had rough spots and other irregularities.

[Frankdemariany]

9 minutes ago, Bizman62 said:

Exactly that. If the surface stays intact other than being dull gray the old paint will work as a primer. The matte surface will provide a good grip for the new paint. A tiny spot down to bare wood here and there won't matter but supposedly you shouldn't get that deep anyway. Primer would be needed if the surface had rough spots and other irregularities.

Got it. Thank you as I wasn't grasping it there for a minute but now I am. 

I'll continue to work on the next but just take it down to the dull grey. 

[Frankdemariany]

So do I have to sand the rest of the neck to the bare wood or can I just do the rest to the dull grey/matte? 

[Bizman62]

5 hours ago, Frankdemariany said:

So do I have to sand the rest of the neck to the bare wood or can I just do the rest to the dull grey/matte? 

Since you've already sanded the most of it to bare wood, it would be difficult to hide the seam of paint and wood. So I suggest you to sand the entire neck. If you want to save the original logo, sand the top of the headstock very lightly starting with 800, continuing with 1200, 1600 and maybe 2000,  rather wet than dry. You can then apply a clearcoat for durability.

Now that I mentioned it, using wet paper for the body is also recommendable. Let the paper soak overnight to make it stronger and add a drop of soap/dishwasher to the water. You'll have a lot less dust to breathe and the result will be smoother. When changing to a finer grit, carefully wipe the body with a clean damp cloth to remove any remains of the coarser grit.

I also suggest you to leave the neck on bare wood and just oil it. It comes to personal preferences but at least for me an oiled neck is much more comfortable. A painted/lacquered neck tends to stick to your palms if your hands sweat, an oiled one (or a matte sanded one) doesn't, so it's faster and easier to play. I repeat, this is a matter of personal preferences!

[Frankdemariany]

4 hours ago, Bizman62 said:

Since you've already sanded the most of it to bare wood, it would be difficult to hide the seam of paint and wood. So I suggest you to sand the entire neck. If you want to save the original logo, sand the top of the headstock very lightly starting with 800, continuing with 1200, 1600 and maybe 2000,  rather wet than dry. You can then apply a clearcoat for durability.

I was going to leave the front of the headstock alone and just sand the logo off lightly so I can custom it to something of the family. Are you referring to the back side of the headstock? To clarify wet meaning add a drop of water?

4 hours ago, Bizman62 said:

Now that I mentioned it, using wet paper for the body is also recommendable. Let the paper soak overnight to make it stronger and add a drop of soap/dishwasher to the water. You'll have a lot less dust to breathe and the result will be smoother. When changing to a finer grit, carefully wipe the body with a clean damp cloth to remove any remains of the coarser grit.

Gotcha. So just to clarify again, this is just taking the piece of sandpaper and soaking it as you said above?

4 hours ago, Bizman62 said:

I also suggest you to leave the neck on bare wood and just oil it. It comes to personal preferences but at least for me an oiled neck is much more comfortable. A painted/lacquered neck tends to stick to your palms if your hands sweat, an oiled one (or a matte sanded one) doesn't, so it's faster and easier to play. I repeat, this is a matter of personal preferences!

My original intent was to paint the neck TV yellow as well but as we are talking I can see it being nice with a wood finish on the back side that's oiled. Come to think of it, I think it would look very nice!!!

Thanks again! 

[Bizman62]

To clarify, there's "dry" sandpaper and "Wet'n'dry" paper, plus some plastic based that work either way, plus some mesh versions that work either way, plus some fabric based that I suppose are meant to be used dry.

In woodworking Wet'n'dry is mostly used on hard surfaces such as paint and lacquer. When used wet the water will both lubricate the surface for smoother finish and mix with the dust so it won't whirl. You simply soak the paper in a bowl and rinse it in between sanding. A drop of soap will break the surface tension for smoothness.

Actually I had the thought that you might want to save the original logo in the front of the headstock. Thanks for correcting. Anyhow, the same sanding advice would have applied to both sides of the headstock but now that you've already gone to bare wood on the back, I suggest you sand the entire back clean. Again, this is just a suggestion, but you may want to let the "natural" edges determine where to sand to bare wood and where leave the paint. This sketch from the back of the headstock may help:

 

 

[Frankdemariany]

Makes sense. Thank you. I’m going to be working on it in the next few days so more to come. 

[Frankdemariany]

Okay so here is some more progress. Scratches did occur so I take full blame for those. To me it give it personality so I'm okay with it. 

My question then is with the scratches..if I were to paint the neck as opposed to just polishing the wood...would the scratches get covered up or will they still be shown.

A co-worker of mine also offered me to borrow his hand sander which I may take him up on for the guitar body. Thoughts? Tips? I just need to get it to the grey finish right?

Thanks!

[Bizman62]

Since there's no heavy damage in the body, I wouldn't use any machines. 400-600-800 wet sandpaper and some patience just to make the old paint dull matte is enough. You don't have to sand it away, you'll only have to break the shiny surface for the new paint to grip. Any scratches on the old paint layer will magnify with the new paint so really, don't apply pressure when sanding, wipe the wet dust away constantly and be prepared to use countless hours for the process.

Hint: When hunting for scratches on the sanded paint, spray or wipe it wet to simulate the new paint. That will make any scratches shine.

[mistermikev]

some nice progress.  rock on.  thing about sand paper is... you think a heavy grit will make it easier... but that is rarely true.  selecting just the right grit can save a lot of effort, and switching to lighter grits before you think you are 'done' can actually save some effort too... but as much sanding as I've done in my life it has taken a long time to understand that!  afa scratches... if you paint it you are still going to end up dealing with those scratches in the paint finish... so you might as well deal with them on the wood surface because it will likely save frustration.  just one man's o.

[Frankdemariany]

5 hours ago, Bizman62 said:

Since there's no heavy damage in the body, I wouldn't use any machines. 400-600-800 wet sandpaper and some patience just to make the old paint dull matte is enough. You don't have to sand it away, you'll only have to break the shiny surface for the new paint to grip. Any scratches on the old paint layer will magnify with the new paint so really, don't apply pressure when sanding, wipe the wet dust away constantly and be prepared to use countless hours for the process.

Hint: When hunting for scratches on the sanded paint, spray or wipe it wet to simulate the new paint. That will make any scratches shine.

Thank you for the advice. Wet sandpaper it is for the body. Then for the remainder of the neck, just continue to do it by hand?

[Frankdemariany]

2 hours ago, mistermikev said:

some nice progress.  rock on.  thing about sand paper is... you think a heavy grit will make it easier... but that is rarely true.  selecting just the right grit can save a lot of effort, and switching to lighter grits before you think you are 'done' can actually save some effort too... but as much sanding as I've done in my life it has taken a long time to understand that!  afa scratches... if you paint it you are still going to end up dealing with those scratches in the paint finish... so you might as well deal with them on the wood surface because it will likely save frustration.  just one man's o.

Yes I totally thought the heavy grit paper would make it easier. I've noticed that the 320 worked pretty well with this. It just takes time and elbow grease. 

 

I agree...deal with them on the wood and it's still super smooth so I think it would work. 

[Bizman62]

4 hours ago, Frankdemariany said:

Then for the remainder of the neck, just continue to do it by hand?

There's so little paint left that a machine would be overkill. If you can't get to some inner curves easily with paper, try a scraper. A properly sharpened scraper can be more delicate than any paper. Actually, yesternight I filled a nick on an acoustic and scraped the patch level with a razor blade ripped off of a tri-blade dispensable razor. It did the job without leaving any marks on the surrounding lacquer finish!

[Frankdemariany]

6 hours ago, Bizman62 said:

There's so little paint left that a machine would be overkill. If you can't get to some inner curves easily with paper, try a scraper. A properly sharpened scraper can be more delicate than any paper. Actually, yesternight I filled a nick on an acoustic and scraped the patch level with a razor blade ripped off of a tri-blade dispensable razor. It did the job without leaving any marks on the surrounding lacquer finish!

So just a simple razor blade may work?

[Bizman62]

7 hours ago, Frankdemariany said:

So just a simple razor blade may work?

Yes, to an extent. It's not for large areas or taking away lots of material but it can be very delicate for fixing something like a drop of lacquer on a flat surface.

Let me explain scrapers a little deeper.

A scraper is a piece of steel plate with an edge. There's several ways to sharpen the edge, for cabinet scrapers the easiest way is to file the edge in 90 deg angle against the sides. The 90 deg edge will act as a blade. If you want that blade to be sharper, you can fine tune it with a burnisher to create a burr which is sharper. The finer the file used for basic sharpening and the sleeker the burnisher the smoother the burr edge will be. Simplified, a razor blade is a very fine edge with no saw tooth coarseness.

This illustration shows how a burnished scraper looks like enlarged. Notice that the edge can be of any shape but it has to be both consistent and smooth length vise.

[Frankdemariany]

5 hours ago, Bizman62 said:

Yes, to an extent. It's not for large areas or taking away lots of material but it can be very delicate for fixing something like a drop of lacquer on a flat surface.

Let me explain scrapers a little deeper.

A scraper is a piece of steel plate with an edge. There's several ways to sharpen the edge, for cabinet scrapers the easiest way is to file the edge in 90 deg angle against the sides. The 90 deg edge will act as a blade. If you want that blade to be sharper, you can fine tune it with a burnisher to create a burr which is sharper. The finer the file used for basic sharpening and the sleeker the burnisher the smoother the burr edge will be. Simplified, a razor blade is a very fine edge with no saw tooth coarseness.

This illustration shows how a burnished scraper looks like enlarged. Notice that the edge can be of any shape but it has to be both consistent and smooth length vise.

Makes sense thank you. I will try with a razor blade to remove the rest of the paint on the neck. More to come!