Neck break.... angle

[komodo]

I've thought a lot about a similar thing lately. I'm sure you guys get this a lot ... "what are you going to do wth that? Sell it?" NO! I just gave birth to it! I'm going to play it! When explaining to my wife about project one offs vs production manufacture and selling - I realized that most of what we are doing here is a lot of problem solving and variable choices when we build these typical project guitars. If I were to sell one of my designs - well, all the geometries and choices have been made in a prototype of sorts. So, then it's just making production templates and figuring material and time compromises to make it efficient and profitable.

But, all of that decision making and variables part is like a big puzzle....and puzzles are fun....and if you have the kind of brain that just loves that then maybe that's why building these for a hobby is so addicting. And why we have a build started before the paint is dry on the last. More than once I have been done with a build, so tired after climbing the hill - when I suddenly realize I have a NEW GUITAR. It's really weird.

[mistermikev]

2 hours ago, komodo said:

I've thought a lot about a similar thing lately. I'm sure you guys get this a lot ... "what are you going to do wth that? Sell it?" NO! I just gave birth to it! I'm going to play it! When explaining to my wife about project one offs vs production manufacture and selling - I realized that most of what we are doing here is a lot of problem solving and variable choices when we build these typical project guitars. If I were to sell one of my designs - well, all the geometries and choices have been made in a prototype of sorts. So, then it's just making production templates and figuring material and time compromises to make it efficient and profitable.

But, all of that decision making and variables part is like a big puzzle....and puzzles are fun....and if you have the kind of brain that just loves that then maybe that's why building these for a hobby is so addicting. And why we have a build started before the paint is dry on the last. More than once I have been done with a build, so tired after climbing the hill - when I suddenly realize I have a NEW GUITAR. It's really weird.

I am a hoarder right now because all my life I couldn't afford anything fancy like many of my cohorts have... now the only thing separating me from owning every guitar I ever wanted is learning to build it.  Along the way it turns out building is more fun than I thought!

that said, I've had a few folks ask me about selling guitars and I'm def not 'above' doing that, but I generally tell folks "I'm really just doing this for fun".  Then, one day I have this guy who is hounding me to sell him a guitar despite repeated "nos".  I finally give in and tell him "ok fine... what would you pay for it" thinking this should end the conversation pretty quick.  He shoots a number that is surprisingly close to what I would part with it for so I tell him 'x + 300' and promptly never hear from him again. 

I didn't even want to sell it in the first place and this jackwagon gets me thinking "well if I sold it I could afford parts for 2 new guitars" only to break my heart.  That right there is why I would not want to build for money.  I only care about building.  I have a few friends that have asked me to build them something but I try to change the conversation.  I'm sure I will sell something or build for a friend at some point because I'm blowing way too much money on this stuff but here's what tempers my view: "find a job you love and you'll never work another day but make what you love your job and it'll become work"

[ADFinlayson]

Mike, what you describe there about friends asking is precisely how I got into building for others. The good thing about them being friends is that I was able to say very clearly that “it will cost £n for parts and consumables which you must pay up front and it will take as long as it takes.” I’ve adopted the same approach for friends of friends and customers I don’t know at all but with a bit more tact, and the £n for parts is now labelled “deposit” with the addition of £y for labour on collection. That approach has served me  quite well so far, but I do get the odd enquiry that requires an hour long conversation on messenger before they disappear into the ether. That being said, one of those conversations turned into an unexpected deposit 6 months later. The trouble with relying almost completely on the internet for new business is that a lot of “enquiries” are a waste of time. All that being said, if I could do it for a living, I’d give up tech in a heartbeat

[mistermikev]

40 minutes ago, ADFinlayson said:

Mike, what you describe there about friends asking is precisely how I got into building for others. The good thing about them being friends is that I was able to say very clearly that “it will cost £n for parts and consumables which you must pay up front and it will take as long as it takes.” I’ve adopted the same approach for friends of friends and customers I don’t know at all but with a bit more tact, and the £n for parts is now labelled “deposit” with the addition of £y for labour on collection. That approach has served me  quite well so far, but I do get the odd enquiry that requires an hour long conversation on messenger before they disappear into the ether. That being said, one of those conversations turned into an unexpected deposit 6 months later. The trouble with relying almost completely on the internet for new business is that a lot of “enquiries” are a waste of time. All that being said, if I could do it for a living, I’d give up tech in a heartbeat

don't get me wrong "saving the world from badly formatted data streams" is no trip to hollywood but I sometimes enjoy programming.  When I have a new interesting job to figure out the time goes by fast and I love it... but like anything else - has its down side for sure. 

I worked as a music store employee for a stint when I was younger... there are folks that just love to talk shop and I honestly don't mind that... cause I love gear.  The folks I never could stand where what I call the "hunters".  Really only interested in whatever they can't have... so whatever the price is they want it for x-1.  Then when they grind you down and you give in... they aren't interested because they only really were ever interested in 'the hunt'.  None of that interests me... only building interesting things does!

[ADFinlayson]

22 minutes ago, mistermikev said:

don't get me wrong "saving the world from badly formatted data streams" is no trip to hollywood but I sometimes enjoy programming.  When I have a new interesting job to figure out the time goes by fast and I love it... but like anything else - has its down side for sure. 

I worked as a music store employee for a stint when I was younger... there are folks that just love to talk shop and I honestly don't mind that... cause I love gear.  The folks I never could stand where what I call the "hunters".  Really only interested in whatever they can't have... so whatever the price is they want it for x-1.  Then when they grind you down and you give in... they aren't interested because they only really were ever interested in 'the hunt'.  None of that interests me... only building interesting things does!

Yeah I think any kind of art/craft/woodworking project where you’re charging for a finished piece, if someone wants to drill you down on price, they should be told where to go. 

[mistermikev]

Just now, ADFinlayson said:

Yeah I think any kind of art/craft/woodworking project where you’re charging for a finished piece, if someone wants to drill you down on price, they should be told where to go. 

 well you know what they say... part of your job as a salesman is education!  Again, not trying to sell guitars at all, just musing at the silliness of it all.  It's a brutal market for that, more inclined to trade guitars for gear I need (rather want... do we really NEED anything?)! 

[Prostheta]

8 hours ago, ADFinlayson said:

Yeah I think any kind of art/craft/woodworking project where you’re charging for a finished piece, if someone wants to drill you down on price, they should be told where to go. 

This is the difference between somebody buying a piece that they also represent as art or whether they see it as a functional bit of thing, made of stuff. Art is in the eye of the beholder, and sometimes tenuously sat on a razor's edge as to whether it's pompously regarded as such by the maker. The fickleness of what is, is not and is somewhat intangible....no litmus test exists for art either  way!

Saying that.....one of my previous employers was a really shitty, lazy and low standard woodworker whose excuse was "oh I don't want to make the same thing all the time, because I'm an artist". No mate, you were not an artist. You were just a shitty woodworker....hahaha

You should of course not undersell the value of your work, even if it's only you that values it at X price. Ultimately, underselling will detract from the perceived value of your work in general. After all, art as a commodity is in scarcity whilst production items are in abundance. Not a million miles away from centralised economies vs. local economies and bartering....but that's another conversation right there....

[ADFinlayson]

3 minutes ago, Prostheta said:

This is the difference between somebody buying a piece that they also represent as art or whether they see it as a functional bit of thing, made of stuff. Art is in the eye of the beholder, and sometimes tenuously sat on a razor's edge as to whether it's pompously regarded as such by the maker. The fickleness of what is, is not and is somewhat intangible....no litmus test exists for art either  way!

Saying that.....one of my previous employers was a really shitty, lazy and low standard woodworker whose excuse was "oh I don't want to make the same thing all the time, because I'm an artist". No mate, you were not an artist. You were just a shitty woodworker....hahaha

You should of course not undersell the value of your work, even if it's only you that values it at X price. Ultimately, underselling will detract from the perceived value of your work in general. After all, art as a commodity is in scarcity whilst production items are in abundance. Not a million miles away from centralised economies vs. local economies and bartering....but that's another conversation right there....

There is a difference IMO between bartering for an off the shelf item that anyone can buy and bartering for a commissioned piece built to someones requirements. Anyway, this has gone way off topic, sorry @mistermikev

[Prostheta]

@mistermikev is adult enough to know that we rarely adult ourselves, going off on discussions....and is free to shut us down since it's his thread. 

[mistermikev]

2 hours ago, ADFinlayson said:

There is a difference IMO between bartering for an off the shelf item that anyone can buy and bartering for a commissioned piece built to someones requirements. Anyway, this has gone way off topic, sorry @mistermikev

there is NEVER any issue with going OT in my threads.  Please do.  For me, it's all about just exchanging. 

[mistermikev]

2 hours ago, Prostheta said:

@mistermikev is adult enough to know that we rarely adult ourselves, going off on discussions....and is free to shut us down since it's his thread. 

hehe, I'm rarely accused of being adult... but I don't mind at all... even if the ot doesn't involve me.  This is a forum after all... the whole point is people interacting.  I wouldn't dream of attempting to shut anyone down. 

[Prostheta]

I'll second that. You don't stop playing because you grow old, you grow old because you stop playing. 

[mistermikev]

 

6 minutes ago, Prostheta said:

I'll second that. You don't stop playing because you grow old, you grow old because you stop playing. 

i just meant my young sense of humor... that rest of me is old as f!

[ADFinlayson]

digression inception

[ScottR]

On 12/26/2019 at 11:34 AM, mistermikev said:

food for thought... have to go measure the angles on a few of my guitars.

Players with rounder bellies may find a larger angle more comfortable, while flat bellied players may find smaller angles the most comfy.

SR

[mistermikev]

8 minutes ago, ScottR said:

Players with rounder bellies may find a larger angle more comfortable, while flat bellied players may find smaller angles the most comfy.

SR

wutRuTryinDaSay? 

on an unrelated note going with a 9 degree neck break angle here...

[ScottR]

I find the larger angles more comfy myself.

SR

[Prostheta]

I just thought I'd add in my two cents, quite likely repeating what has already been said. Sorry, bit time poor today and concentrated on what was in my head and getting it onto the post....

Carved tops like LPs, or this Aria Pro II PE-R60 hybrid have two angles; the neck plane and the pickup plane.

 

Here I have a neck plane that starts at the leading edge of the binding and terminates at the end of the fingerboard. This is 4° with respect to the body plane. The pickup plane starts where the neck plane leaves off and terminates between the rear of the bridge pickup and the bridge itself. I elected to place this at the bridge line. The point being, the neck plane can be as large as you want however it will require either a taller bridge or the neck itself to be set deeper with respect to the body. This can be a bit weird beyond a few degrees so it'll need balancing out with the rest of the instrument like the horns and how the pickups are placed, certaining with the angle of the pickup rings and/or cavities.

9° sounds extreme and I don't immediately recall production instruments having this kind of neck angle. Maybe more traditional archtops with deeper bodies and different neck-body joint/bridge distances.

Interested to see how this turns out from an aesthetic and ergonomic standpoint. If you don't try it, you can only look at it as a drawing and imagine/calculate how it might feel....to a point.

[mistermikev]

56 minutes ago, Prostheta said:

I just thought I'd add in my two cents, quite likely repeating what has already been said. Sorry, bit time poor today and concentrated on what was in my head and getting it onto the post....

Carved tops like LPs, or this Aria Pro II PE-R60 hybrid have two angles; the neck plane and the pickup plane.

 

Here I have a neck plane that starts at the leading edge of the binding and terminates at the end of the fingerboard. This is 4° with respect to the body plane. The pickup plane starts where the neck plane leaves off and terminates between the rear of the bridge pickup and the bridge itself. I elected to place this at the bridge line. The point being, the neck plane can be as large as you want however it will require either a taller bridge or the neck itself to be set deeper with respect to the body. This can be a bit weird beyond a few degrees so it'll need balancing out with the rest of the instrument like the horns and how the pickups are placed, certaining with the angle of the pickup rings and/or cavities.

9° sounds extreme and I don't immediately recall production instruments having this kind of neck angle. Maybe more traditional archtops with deeper bodies and different neck-body joint/bridge distances.

Interested to see how this turns out from an aesthetic and ergonomic standpoint. If you don't try it, you can only look at it as a drawing and imagine/calculate how it might feel....to a point.

your 2 cents is always welcome and probably given the idea exchange rate - worth at least... well... lets say 89 cents.

9 degrees was just me being silly because I have a "9 degree sized beer belly" (see scottr post b4 that)!  actual was 4 deg altho now you've got me thinking perhaps that'd be kinda cool.  as you've stated... hard to predict the 'feel' as for me it requires actually playing - not just sitting with a mocked up dummy - to tell if I like it.  Might have to entertain bigger angle on a future build - maybe not 9, but perhaps 6 or 7 just to see. 

good info regarding two possible planes... I think ad may have mentioned this as well... didn't realize it was a thing.  Something to remember for future builds for sure.

thanks for the reply. 

[ScottR]

Mandolins, mandolos and their assorted kin have rather elevated neck angles to maximize the string tension across those floating bridges. I rather like the look and find them plenty comfy as well.

SR

[mistermikev]

47 minutes ago, ScottR said:

Mandolins, mandolos and their assorted kin have rather elevated neck angles to maximize the string tension across those floating bridges. I rather like the look and find them plenty comfy as well.

SR

good to know... have never played any of them, but it def looks nice.