Ergonomic Design.

[GarrettS]

Right handed guitarist, here.

I'm trying to find a guitar that will fit me.

 

I think I need to build one. How can I know if it will work before I hire someone to build it! How can I avoid making some mistakes?

[Bizman62]

Some more details would help... Acoustic or electric, your favourite playing position both standing and sitting, classical or rock etc...

I suppose your preferred neck profile is the most crucial thing for you to find out. An easy way would be going to a big guitar shop and play all of their guitars. Unfortunately not all shops have their guitars properly set up so even the most perfect neck can feel uncomfortable if the action is way off so if possible try several guitars of the same model. A plastic profile gauge for drawing the neck profiles of the guitars you've played with and a notebook for notifications would help memorizing what you like and what you don't.

If it so happens that you find the guitar of your dreams readily built you'll save the time waiting for someone to build a copy of it for you. And I repeat, setting the action right makes a mediocre guitar a pleasure to play and a top instrument to become a part of you.

[GarrettS]

I want an electric guitar. With acoustic guitar, the guitar neck is far enough away from my body that I don't have a problem playing it.

With electric guitar, my problems are:

1. The guitar body is too close to my body and
2. shifted too much to the right. This makes it harded to play standing things above fret 12, especially 3-note per string or stretchy things.
3. The neck is often less than a 45° angle. 

I addressed two of these problems by moving the strap buttons of my Ibanez RG's to behind the horn and to the face of the lower body. That helps me push the guitar away from my body so I can play the upper frets and it tilts the guitar so the headstock points upwards. But the strap feels "tight" like it's cinching around my body. It's still too close to my body, and it's still too right-shifted.

V guitars are a bit better. I bought and returned a Jackson Rhoads V from GC. Terrible sounding guitar. Would not stay in tune at all.

But the fit was better. The strap button is behind the neck and the lower strap button is further down. These "right shifted" strap buttons shift the guitar to the left and that makes it easier for my left hand to play the higher frets. The neck is usually around a 45° or better angle.  I attached the lower part of the strap to the button from the topside, running it on the top side the lower wing, not under it, and I did that to pull the base of the guitar back, and that made it easier to get the guitar away from my body. 

But V guitars are still too close to my body.

I build a guitar that's thick as my acoustic, it will be out in front enough. But a solidbody that thick will weigh twenty pounds or more.

https://forum.troygrady.com/t/the-guitar-doesnt-fit-issues-with-size-and-position/10903/62

[GarrettS]

2 hours ago, norm barrows said:

mock-ups and test builds.   cardboard mockups to get the shape.  test builds to get the balance.

 

OK! How do I do that? I have scissors, tape, and wood glue, and I can probably find some cardboard around. Do you make it paper maché? I don't have a workbench, though. That's a problem. 

I'm thinking it should be thick, maybe 10cm, in the center of the guitar, below the headstock. The wings should taper down to very thin, like the ESP Vulture but more tapered.

How could I do that? And with no bench?

 

[Bizman62]

Look how @Andyjr1515 did the balancing in http://www.projectguitar.com/forums/topic/50983-yew-topped-sg-style-guitar/?do=findComment&comment=589339

To me that one looks like the neck angle could be adjusted to your liking and also the access to the upper frets.

For a lightweight yet thick guitar an archtop hollowbody would be an option. On a solidbody a belly carve might also help by tilting the body facing more up.

To build a cardboard model you'd only need scissors or a utility knife, glue and corrugated cardboard - empty boxes are fine. For  tapered wings either make the top boards diminish step by step, layer by layer, or carve it with a big knife. A bread knife with a wavy blade might cut well through cardboard. Paper maché would be overkill unless you need to patch something. Gaffer tape would do as well. 

Many guitars have been built on the kitchen table. Before that, as @norm barrows said, do your homework. There's lots of good learning material online - and tons of crap as well! If a video is published by a builder or luthier it's most likely good, if a 14 y.o. kid tells how he built a killer guitar in a week using just a utility knife and gaffer tape, a grain of salt is recommendable.

 

 

[Gogzs]

I'd also recommend going to music shops and trying out everything they have, that's what I did before building mine. The only thing I can't get my hands on is a Strandberg with the odd asymmetric neck shape. I imagine it could be comfortable, but I don't wanna put all the effort into making a neck like that just to figure out I don't like it.

So yeah, go out and try a lot of guitars. 

[GarrettS]

Well I don't know how to build a cardboard guitar. I don't have desk space. I suppose I could use my kitchen counter space… 

I saw one other guitar I want to try. Billy-Bo Jupiter. Look how much space is between the bridge and the strap button. It looks like I can play it sitting down, too, unlike a Rhoads V. But I want to play it, to get a feel for the balance. Where can I try it?

I think I would not like this guitar as it is.

Put the volume knob in the right place. Remove the knobs below the bridge, move the pickup switch to about where it goes on a strat, put the lower strap button on the front, give it a deeper cutaway with 24 frets (15 jumbo, 9 slim-tall), make it headless & change the bridge.

Weight is reduced by removing the heastock and some electronics. But it might be added back by installing a tremolo system like the CSL Sophia.

 

 

 

[Bizman62]

1 hour ago, GarrettS said:

Well I don't know how to build a cardboard guitar.

Really? In that case your thoughts may bee too complicated. Simply take a couple of cartons, cut some guitar shaped pieces and see how they look. If you want 3D, glue several of them on top of each other to the desired thickness. Agreed, the weight would be way too light but the balance should be in the ballpark. And all you'd need is scissors and glue.

[GarrettS]

38 minutes ago, norm barrows said:

Well, it definitely sounds like you've been bitten by the bug (guitar modding / building bug).

Happened to me last November.   Guess its catching. <g>.   Better that than Coronavirus eh?

All you have to do is stop making excuses and go for it.

The good folks here can lend a hand when you get stuck. 

The pic looks cool.   figure out how you would customize it, and go for it!

Or better yet, consider modding your current guitar first, then make a custom body if that's what is really required.

You may also want to look into nohead designs, the have vastly superior balance and weight characteristics vs conventional headstock designs.

Yes!!!

if you can make one cardboard Better BBJ (BBBJ), for me, I can pay you.

Headless.

[curtisa]

2 hours ago, GarrettS said:

If you can make one cardboard Better BBJ (BBBJ), for me, I can pay you.

Headless.

Just to clarify, I believe the suggestions being offered with regards to making a cardboard guitar are about making a mock-up for evaluation and experimentation purposes only, rather than a fully-functional guitar made from cardboard.

[GarrettS]

Yes, that's right. A non-functional cardboard prototype.

I'll try and get wood mass and weight estimations from the builder and we'll add weight the cardboard accordingly. 

 

[curtisa]

Just checking 

[Bizman62]

1 hour ago, curtisa said:

I believe the suggestions being offered with regards to making a cardboard guitar are about making a mock-up for evaluation and experimentation purposes only, rather than a fully-functional guitar made from cardboard.

Exactly. Cardboard is cheap and easy to work with to find a shape that pleases, the final result to be copied to real materials.

That said, fully functional cardboard Strats have been made. This video shows how to make it with inexpensive tools on your kitchen table: https://youtu.be/IAa6h8_9YUc

For mock up purposes the resin and neck beam stuff aren't needed at all, yet you can install both the pickups and tuners for evaluating balance. Also, especially the body can as well be made out of large guitar shaped pieces glued on top of each other. It's not as strong but you aren't going to string it up anyway.

[GarrettS]

I wan't planning on installing pickups, but why not… I have a few extras.

I don't have a kitchen table. No room in this tiny studio.

No tuners on a headless, but I emailed sophia about their CSL bridge. They couldn't give me one weight for any of their bridges because it depends on various blocks and options. I picked some options and hopefully they can give me a semi-accurate number. 

If I can make the model look good, I can deliver the model to the builder who can build it for me. 

The nearest Builder is Halo guitars. I like their guitars and met one of their builders[1], But they're expensive. JMI is about 65% of the cost but not local.

 

[1] https://www.haloguitars.com/store/marcus-henderson-joins-halo-custom-guitars

Edited May 26, 2020 by GarrettS
yes

[GarrettS]

56 minutes ago, norm barrows said:

 

That really shouldn't be necessary.      Odds are the woods you use, whether you mod or build from scratch, will be close enough in density that you can just pretend its all the same wood. 

Maybe the woods will be close in density. 

I want to know how it will balance. The thickness I suggested will add mass (maybe it shouldn't be so thick?).

If I take the original: 

1) https://www.electricherald.com/gretsch-billy-bo-jupiter-thunderbird/

2) Make it neck-thru with a thicker body (maybe 7-10 cm)

3) add body contours like a deep forearm rest…

4) Make it headless

How can I know how it will balance?

 

[curtisa]

3 hours ago, norm barrows said:

That really shouldn't be necessary.      Odds are the woods you use, whether you mod or build from scratch, will be close enough in density that you can just pretend its all the same wood.   

That's an oversimplification of what will actually happen in real life, and doesn't take into account the materials used, how it's constructed or the hardware installed. It's unreasonable to assume cardboard is exactly x times less weighty than wood (pine? ebony? wenge? balsa?). Even the bridge and pickups can be a significant proportion of a guitar body's weight, which is entirely unaccounted for at this stage.

 

2 hours ago, GarrettS said:

How can I know how it will balance?

Are you wanting to know how your particular custom requirements will balance on the strap, or how it feels to play? I think those are two separate issues. The former you will unlikely be able to tell without actually making the object and/or with guidance of an experienced builder. The latter is where the idea has been suggested about making a full scale mock-up out of cheap materials has come from.

[GarrettS]

On 5/27/2020 at 8:29 PM, curtisa said:

That's an oversimplification of what will actually happen in real life, and doesn't take into account the materials used, how it's constructed or the hardware installed. It's unreasonable to assume cardboard is exactly x times less weighty than wood (pine? ebony? wenge? balsa?). Even the bridge and pickups can be a significant proportion of a guitar body's weight, which is entirely unaccounted for at this stage.

 

Are you wanting to know how your particular custom requirements will balance on the strap, or how it feels to play? I think those are two separate issues. The former you will unlikely be able to tell without actually making the object and/or with guidance of an experienced builder. The latter is where the idea has been suggested about making a full scale mock-up out of cheap materials has come from.

How would I try out a prototype with the builder? How does it usually work?

JMI is in Indiana, thousands of miles away. He charges just under 3k for custom guitars. 

Here, in Mountain View, CA, we have Halo guitars. They charge just under 5k. I'm paying a premium for the cost of rent/RE prices. I'm confident in the quality of work. I'd be able to try stuff out, but they charge 60% more.

What would you do?

 

Edited May 30, 2020 by GarrettS

[GarrettS]

I also want to try a Billy-Bo Jupiter. Gretsch doesn't know who has one. Guitar Center, Sweetwater, Musicians' Friend, do not have any. It's special order only, so no returns.

[curtisa]

On ‎5‎/‎31‎/‎2020 at 9:57 AM, GarrettS said:

What would you do?

It's complicated

So I had a look through the thread you linked to over at the Troy Grady website, and I can see the issue you're facing with regards to the length of your left forearm when standing with your upper arm vertical and relaxed. TBH it's not something that I would have considered myself as a builder or as a player and is more one of the various ergonomic foibles of the guitar in general, but I can make the following observations:

1. In the first video your left hand thumb position when standing has a tendency to overhang the top of the neck quite a bit. When doing 3-notes-per-string runs, because your thumb tends to hook over a lot your hand is quite tense. It's the kind of shape your fingers and hand forms if you were trying to crush a tennis ball in one hand. It looks like a very tense grip and can't be doing the muscles in your fingers and forearms any good. I'd actually suggest you need to play with the strap much shorter and the guitar higher up and more horizontal, which would help relax your wrist and allow the thumb to come back around more towards the back of the neck. When you play in a seated position (third video) you can see how much higher the guitar sits on your torso, but also how much more relaxed your left hand is and how much further away your thumb rests from the edge of the fret board (further towards the back of the neck). I personally try to adjust my straps so that the instrument hangs roughly at the same height and angle as it would when seated. It doesn't look particualrly rock 'n roll, but it's a damn sight more comfortable than playing with the instrument in the Jimmy Page position.

2. Placing the rear strap button on the front of the guitar clearly doesn't work for you. In your second video it's quite easy to see how uncomfortable it is, and how much the strap is forced to pinch your body as it snakes around your lower-right torso to the front of the instrument. However placing the front strap button behind the upper horn will help angle the neck away from your body and should be considered a good thing for you ergonomically, as it allows a little more length for your forearm to fit behind the neck when reaching for the upper frets.

3. In my builds I have noticed that the shape of the rear comfort carve can make a difference in the way the guitar hangs on the body. Strandberg's Boden model has a comfort carve that is deeper towards the right side than it is towards the left. The red line highlights this angle:

   I have started incorporate a similar shape to the comfort carve in my own builds and can confirm it tilts the neck further away from the body and allows the left forearm a little bit more length to fit in behind the neck. It's been a few years since I've owned an Ibanez RG, but I'm pretty sure the angle of the comfort carve is more horizontal, which would tend to make the guitar to hang more square-on to your torso. This may be something you'd like to consider if you decide to chase a custom guitar with a builder.

4. I would pesonally shy away from blocky guitars in an attempt to be ergonomic. The inherent shape of them does not lend themselves well to being comfortable players, either on the strap or seated. The fact that you cannot find the Billy Bo locally, and that it is a special order item with no returns makes it an expensive way to try a guitar if there's a risk it doesn't fit your requirements. Overly thick-bodied guitars are likely to give similar issues, either with weight or position fatigue. You mention that your ideal playing position is with the guitar held away from the body by a couple of inches - my gut feel from watching your videos you've posted on the Troy Grady forums is that you more need to optimise the angles the instument hangs on your body.

[GarrettS]

25 minutes ago, norm barrows said:

correct.

what construction method would affect balance in a solid body?  neck thru, glue in, or screw on, its all pretty much all wood.

all a cardboard mockup really gets you is shape. you have to move on to wood, prefab necks, etc to really start sorting out balance.

Cardboard guitar gets me the shape and then I can weight it with rocks or metal.

 

10 hours ago, curtisa said:

It's complicated

So I had a look through the thread you linked to over at the Troy Grady website, and I can see the issue you're facing with regards to the length of your left forearm when standing with your upper arm vertical and relaxed. TBH it's not something that I would have considered myself as a builder or as a player and is more one of the various ergonomic foibles of the guitar in general, but I can make the following observations:

1. In the first video your left hand thumb position when standing has a tendency to overhang the top of the neck quite a bit. When doing 3-notes-per-string runs, because your thumb tends to hook over a lot your hand is quite tense. It's the kind of shape your fingers and hand forms if you were trying to crush a tennis ball in one hand. It looks like a very tense grip and can't be doing the muscles in your fingers and forearms any good. I'd actually suggest you need to play with the strap much shorter and the guitar higher up and more horizontal, which would help relax your wrist and allow the thumb to come back around more towards the back of the neck. When you play in a seated position (third video) you can see how much higher the guitar sits on your torso, but also how much more relaxed your left hand is and how much further away your thumb rests from the edge of the fret board (further towards the back of the neck). I personally try to adjust my straps so that the instrument hangs roughly at the same height and angle as it would when seated. It doesn't look particualrly rock 'n roll, but it's a damn sight more comfortable than playing with the instrument in the Jimmy Page position.

2. Placing the rear strap button on the front of the guitar clearly doesn't work for you. In your second video it's quite easy to see how uncomfortable it is, and how much the strap is forced to pinch your body as it snakes around your lower-right torso to the front of the instrument. However placing the front strap button behind the upper horn will help angle the neck away from your body and should be considered a good thing for you ergonomically, as it allows a little more length for your forearm to fit behind the neck when reaching for the upper frets.

3. In my builds I have noticed that the shape of the rear comfort carve can make a difference in the way the guitar hangs on the body. Strandberg's Boden model has a comfort carve that is deeper towards the right side than it is towards the left. The red line highlights this angle:

   I have started incorporate a similar shape to the comfort carve in my own builds and can confirm it tilts the neck further away from the body and allows the left forearm a little bit more length to fit in behind the neck. It's been a few years since I've owned an Ibanez RG, but I'm pretty sure the angle of the comfort carve is more horizontal, which would tend to make the guitar to hang more square-on to your torso. This may be something you'd like to consider if you decide to chase a custom guitar with a builder.

4. I would pesonally shy away from blocky guitars in an attempt to be ergonomic. The inherent shape of them does not lend themselves well to being comfortable players, either on the strap or seated. The fact that you cannot find the Billy Bo locally, and that it is a special order item with no returns makes it an expensive way to try a guitar if there's a risk it doesn't fit your requirements. Overly thick-bodied guitars are likely to give similar issues, either with weight or position fatigue. You mention that your ideal playing position is with the guitar held away from the body by a couple of inches - my gut feel from watching your videos you've posted on the Troy Grady forums is that you more need to optimise the angles the instument hangs on your body.

 

Thanks for taking a look at my other thread.

Troy has already started deleting my posts, so it's not a reliable archive for where my content resides. Unfortunately, there are some good comments on there, too. I'll refrain from posting over there for now until I can figure out how to get an archive of my posts. A bulk of my life's writings have been lost due to censorship.

The problem is not necessarily what to build at this point, it's how do I start. I don't want to commission a $4000+ experiment. I want get as close as possible to trying it before building it.

The strap button being on the face of the guitar there would be good if the guitar had a longer body. That will make the guitar longer and left shift it. That's why the BBJ looks appealing. Similarly, I've wrapped the strap over the top of the flying wing and it works great. I did this with an RRX24 and a Vulture (James Hetfield ESP). 

I don't have one position for playing standing up. I move the guitar around. For rhythm, it's normal; mid-level; a bit higher than Satriani. But when I want to play higher on the fingerboard, I want to be able to get the guitar so it's at an angle, higher, and away from my belly. There's a few ways to do that but none of them are easy with a super strat. https://www.instagram.com/p/BsKYHaalrcE/

Your idea for neck pitch is what I want to do on a neck thru.

Edited May 31, 2020 by GarrettS

[curtisa]

5 hours ago, norm barrows said:

what construction method would affect balance in a solid body?  neck thru, glue in, or screw on, its all pretty much all wood.

OK, how about chambering? Laminating a neck or body with a mixture of different timber species? Adding carves and cutouts to an otherwise flat piece of timber that changes the way the instrument fits around the curves and contours of the player? What about if the body is made from alternative materials - aluminium, perspex, Kevlar? There's plenty of things that affect the balance of an instrument other than it just being 'pretty much all wood'.

[curtisa]

5 hours ago, GarrettS said:

The problem is not necessarily what to build at this point, it's how do I start. I don't want to commission a $4000+ experiment. I want get as close as possible to trying it before building it

Which makes it tricky. All I can suggest is that you need to try as many different instruments as you can lay your hands on and take note of what features do and do not work for you. You can then work those ideas into a mockup to help evaluate whether they fit your expectations and requirements. From there you could take the mockup to a builder and discuss your options with regards to implementing it into an instrument.

I still wouldn't disregard changing the way you play and hold your existing instruments though. Subtle changes in the way you approach the guitar can have drastic differences in how you operate with it, and the cost is nothing other the time taken to experiment.

[GarrettS]

26 minutes ago, curtisa said:

Which makes it tricky.

Where can I try a Billy-Bo Jupiter? 

Should the builder build a custom mock guitar with the right weights and measurements? How much should that cost to get an idea of the balance of it?

 

[curtisa]

6 hours ago, GarrettS said:

Where can I try a Billy-Bo Jupiter? 

I can't answer that. Unless someone here knows of a retailer near you that stocks it, or you can find someone privately who has one to try, you may need to change the target you're aiming for.

 

6 hours ago, GarrettS said:

Should the builder build a custom mock guitar with the right weights and measurements? How much should that cost to get an idea of the balance of it?

You'd have to pose the question to the builder of your choice. You're effectively asking them to make a guitar-shaped object that doesn't play; an ornamental prototype. Maybe they could make it from throw-away materials like plywood or MDF. The cost of materials might be low, but you'd still be paying their hourly rate to make it plus any time associated with consultancy (eg, discussions regarding what you want, measurements and drawings, follow-ups with you regarding how it feels, subsequent tweaks to the design, multiple iterations if required etc). Obviously you'd then have to pay again for them to build the working instrument from that prototype. If it truly is a bespoke one-of-a-kind instrument built from quality materials and components, with a round or two of prototyping and development I wouldn't expect much change from $10-15K as a starting point.

It's easier for both the builder and customer if you can approach them and say, "here's a design that gets me 90% there - can you help me make the last 10%?" If you can get to that 90% point by either making your own mockup out of cardboard/polystyrene/MDF/plywood/an old coffee table/your bedroom door, or you can point out a model that you've tried that you know was really close, the builder is more likely to be able to get you there in one go and be able to provide you with a reasonable quote for doing so.

You said earlier you got close with a Vee body shape. Maybe focus your attention on other guitars which have the elongated body shape such as the Gibson Explorer (and variants), Gibson Firebird, Ibanez Destroyer, Ibanez Xiphos or Dean Dimebag.

[GarrettS]

I've made no progress.

On 5/31/2020 at 5:39 PM, curtisa said:

You said earlier you got close with a Vee body shape. Maybe focus your attention on other guitars which have the elongated body shape such as the Gibson Explorer (and variants), Gibson Firebird, Ibanez Destroyer, Ibanez Xiphos or Dean Dimebag.

V guitar are light and the strap buttons are roughly in the right places. But they can't be played sitting. 

The billy bo jupiter model is almost like a V but can be played seated. But I can't commission a guitar I never tried. I want to try it, even if a knockoff, so long as that knockoff has the correct chambers.

Explorer is a heavier guitar. The firebird might work if it has the right cutaways. Razorback and Xiphos felt uncomfortable. 

I don't know what to do.

=I tried playing standing up again today. Almost impossible. I've been playing seated with the guitar three inches from my torso, so my left arm has room to be. I tried standing and playing because playing funk seated is difficult because the right arm is curled up. Standing, the right arm is more extended.