Lex Luthier Posted March 6, 2004 Report Share Posted March 6, 2004 because it seems kind of insane to level a board perfectly, then install really tight-fitting frets in there, making the neck back-bow That's because you should put a slight inside curve on your fingerboard. You can do this by utilizing the truss rod, adjust it so the neck is slightly back bowed, then level and radius the fingerboard, then release the truss rod andyou'll have a slight inside bow to the fingerboard. When you fret, the frets will push out the slots and back bow the neck making the fingerboard level. It takes practice to know how much to back bow the neck before leveling the fingerboard though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setch Posted March 6, 2004 Report Share Posted March 6, 2004 This is also a great way to get dual adjustment from a 1 piece compression rod. If you backbow the neck slightly before levelling, then fretting the board, you can always add relief by loosening the trussrod once the guitar is under string tension. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soapbarstrat Posted March 6, 2004 Report Share Posted March 6, 2004 That would always work *IF* all truss-rods worked perfectly. But many don't. Some will put a slight relief in the neck and when you adjust for a little more, it moves the relief up the neck instead of increasing it at the desired spot (6th /7th fret). Some rods will twist the neck when tight, then the twist goes away, or becomes less, when they are loosened. I come from the "get the lowest action possible" school. So the only way I get what I want, is to sand the board flat from end to end under simulated string tension (neck-jig), then fretting with frets that fit snug, but not back-bowing tight. And don't forget I don't build guitars. If you are building the same kind of neck over and over, you can probably work out a system of using the compression fretting and knowing where the truss-rod needs to be set before and after fretting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Rosenberger Posted March 6, 2004 Report Share Posted March 6, 2004 will doo, what solution would you recomend?.... i'd be nice to save that little bit of the top of the wire if i can you can resaw the slots after every few frets are installed. I'd personally try to get a spiral cut dremel bit to match the correct width for the fretwire you're using and set that up in a router base with a straight edge and recut the slots that way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StratDudeDan Posted March 17, 2004 Report Share Posted March 17, 2004 Borrow your friends guitars and practice on them.. lol.. Then if you mess up you won't have too much to worry about.. LOL.. only slightly kidding.. dude, that's how i've learned everything. seriously... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guitarfrenzy Posted March 23, 2004 Report Share Posted March 23, 2004 Borrow your friends guitars and practice on them.. lol.. Then if you mess up you won't have too much to worry about.. LOL.. only slightly kidding.. dude, that's how i've learned everything. seriously... It's just hard to get your friends to pay you for doing a good job though.. lol That's why when you get good you work on strangers guitars, that way you can at least charge them.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soapbarstrat Posted March 23, 2004 Report Share Posted March 23, 2004 I had friends asking me to re-fret their guitars when I was still in the " I'm not sure what I'm doing yet. Have no idea why that one turned out good and that one sucks" stage. But I guess my prices couldn't be beat in 1988 : full re-fret $15.00 ( just to cover fret-wire, sandpaer, glue, plus a couple bucks to cover 'wear and tear' on my tools) Some of those guitars became good advertising for me. My prices shot up as soon as I realized the one guy was having me re-fret one guitar after the other, and he kept selling them. I really only started in 1987 because I was trying to sell a guitar and everyone who came to look at it, said it played too bad. So, I started buying a couple of books and got the stewmac catalog, only with "do it yerself" intentions in mind. I get paid much better for doing it now, but over-all the pay still really sucks for all the time that goes into the job. Plus robots are now doing it, and will be doing it cheaper soon enough. It would be nice if I only spent time making money on things that pay better than guitar repair, then could work less, and spend more time playing. But, being "in deep" as I am, at least I can honestly say that if someone gave me a coupon for a free fret-job by Dan Erlewine, I'd still rather do the job myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpa Posted April 8, 2004 Report Share Posted April 8, 2004 (edited) I was sorting thru and organizing all my guitar related files and came across this set of instructions I made last year for someone. This is my basic method for fret dressing. I'm sure others do things differently with different tools. Feel free to add anything that might be crucial. As I don't have much experience dealing with bound necks there might be something to add in that area. I hope this recipe might help those who are not sure of how to go about refurbishing their frets. Fret dressing Tools leveller - 6" to 8" long stone (course/fine) or ft. long fine bastard file black marker triangular file (2 edges ground smooth) masking tape 1 ft. long steel ruler 3" long steel straightedge 400 grit sandpaper 600 grit sandpaper 1200 grit sandpaper 000 steel wool hobbiest's hammer Optional tools but not really crucial sanding block with matching fretboard radius diamond fret crowning file from StewMac stainless steel fret protectors fret press Assessment This can only work on guitars that have fully functional necks. If there are any problems like severe backbow, twisting or truss rod doesn't work etc. then you have to address that problem before fret work. Neck Your best results come from working on a straight, flat surface so you have to first see where the neck is at and then adjust the truss rod accordingly to lower the relief to as near flat as possible. I like to leave the strings on the guitar at this stage because its easier to decide WHICH WAY and HOW FAR to turn your trussrod to achieve no relief. Remember the string tension adds a bit to the relief so you don't have to turn as far as you think. Remove the strings and double check for overall flatness with the steel ruler. I like to work with a lamp for backlight, then you can see light shining thru at the gaps. See if the ruler rocks on any high spots, could be on individual frets also could rock across a group of frets = BACKBOW. If your neck is backbowed then you have to work out some way to get it flat. Most guitars are built with a single truss rod only allowing for forward curvature, loosening entirely just renders the neck straight (if adjustment nut is at the body end of the guitar), at least thats how they are supposed to work. I like the bi-flex truss rod (double rod) which allows for correction both ways. If its a slight backbow you might be able to work around it and string/trussrod tension can set it right. A little tightening on the truss rod might fix it. If you have a severe backbow, and trussrod adjustment isn't enough, you have to fix that before continuing. Clamp it, heat it, steam it whatever it takes. Frets Visual inspection (of course) for: dimples/indents caused by habitual tight vibrato motion at the same place. Flattened areas from repeated bending in all those "sweet spots". Overall lack of height from previous fret dressings. This is where you have to decide whether or not a few frets need replacing, a total fretjob is needed or just a dressing will do. I'll just continue with the dressing assuming there is still some "meat" left on the frets and they are all firmly seated. Just in case, check around with the 3" straight edge, spanning 3 frets at a time, for high or low ones. You might find one that needs to be tapped back down. Or you might find a few that need to be replaced. I can't really say in numbers how low they have to be for replacement. Thats up to you, just compare with the others. Dressing 1. Double tape the wood fretboard between the frets. 2. Ink the top of each fret with the marker and support the neck firmly and evenly. I like a folded up beach towel. 3. Run your stone, file or sanding block (w/ 400 sandpaper) along the fretboard while curving side to side to follow the radius. Even pressure, steady speed, even contact throughout. Keep an eye on how the marker ink wears away. Ink still showing = low spot. You have to continue until that ink is gone working EVENLY over the whole neck. Don't just concentrate on that low area. This is where the results of your initial assessment are important. If you feel you are taking too much off the other frets then that low one should have been pulled and replaced first and then filed down to match up with the others. 4. Re-ink the tops of the frets. They should each have a small flat, coarse landing on the top. 5. Now you want to recurve (crown) the top of each fret. I've been told the diamond file will crown in only a few swipes, but it IS an expensive tool. I use the triangular file with good results. Use the surface of the file with the 2 dulled edges straddling the fret. This way you can touch the tape on the fretboard without tearing it and eventually messing up the rosewood or whatever is underneath. Run the file flat along the fret while "curving" it EVENLY up each side, end to end and crosswise. Eventually you will see the ink disappearing. Stop when you see just the faintest line of ink running down the exact center of each fret. 6. Rip a small piece of 400 grit paper, fold it and smooth the top of each fret by sanding end to end. This should take out the heavy scratch marks left behind by the levelling and crowning process. 7. Repeat with finer grits. 8. Polish with steel wool. 9. Tear off the tape, restring and setup. 10. Play that gitbox! End note: If you have a crappy little noname guitar laying around its good to get a little practice in on that before messing with your $2000 LP. Edited September 10, 2004 by Southpa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsl602000 Posted June 10, 2004 Report Share Posted June 10, 2004 well, diggin' up this topic..... I was wondering what you guys do when the slots are pretty much worn out? Fill the slots and re-saw? Use that $45 Stew Mac pliers? Or overbend the fret, press/hammer it in and hope for the best? Just wondering... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlleyw Posted July 9, 2004 Report Share Posted July 9, 2004 What we were taught to do, (as I recall) was fill divots, fret slots and the like with rosewood dust, then drop in Crazy Glue. (I think it's referred to in this forum as CA?) Make sure to clean the board or slot with fine sandpaper first. Then set the glue with CA accellerator or baking soda. If you use soda the surface will look dull and rough, but it will finish nicely. Scrape the eccess off with a single ege razor blade. You can actually fill quite a large divot or slot like this. (Be careful to center the fret in the slot.) As far as hammering frets in, I think the slot should be wide enough that the fret presses (or hammers) in easily. If the slot is too narrow the tang will wedge the board and eventually start backbending the neck. Some people actually grind the barbs off the tang so that the fret just drops in. At any rate, make sure to bend the fret close to the radius of the board. press or hammer, or drop it in, then hold it in place with a clamping caul and use a drop of CA to seat it. Be sure to use masking tape to protect the side of the neck. The baking soda or accellerator will hold it in place as soon as you use it. The advantage of doing it this way is that you can adjust the fret until it's exactly in place before seating it. If you pound it in with a hammer or press, you risk having to tear it out if you make a mistake. This is how I was taught to do it way back when at The Apprentice Shop in Spring Hill Tn where I took a guitar repair course. (They're the Gibson "factory repair" shop.) I haven't worked as a repairman, just on my own guitars, but this method has worked well for me. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory Posted October 19, 2004 Report Share Posted October 19, 2004 Stop me if I'm horribly wrong. I made a miter box for the the neck with a track that holds the neck and moves back and forth through a channel that has a blade guide. I'll cut the slots with a coping saw that is guided across the channel and was run across a wetstone to make it narrower. I tried a sample fret on a scrap and it went in fairly easily and wouldn't budge out, I'm hoping this will work. I plan to hammer in the frets with a small rubber mallet starting from one end to the other. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soapbarstrat Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Rubber mallet is not such a good idea. Something harder, like a hard plastic hammer. I have even layed flat steel bar over the frets and tapped with a steel hammer. That fret-wire can take a licking and keep on ticking. No, actually if it's ticking, get the hell out of there, something's about to blow. Just kidding, real bad joke. Pressing is a lot nicer. I have a portable press system that I came up with, but just discovered I can probably make a stew-mac type arbor piece out of a car's strut ( there's this metal rod with a groove in it.... too hard to explain. maybe later if I take pics) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devon Headen Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Agreed. I've heard rubber is a huge pain in the butt. I'd just tap lightly with a steel hammer before doing that. Like soapbar says, frets can take quite a beating. You might want to experiment with some extra fretwire first, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5150rocker Posted November 29, 2005 Report Share Posted November 29, 2005 Now that is a lot of cool knowledge there,one thing is missing.I want to refret a neck.How do I remove the old frets? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thegarehanman Posted November 29, 2005 Report Share Posted November 29, 2005 (edited) You know soapbarstrat, for $20 you can get an arborpress from harbor freight that looks almost identical to stewmac's. I just bought that, drilled a hole in the shaft to accomodate stewmac's caul, and added a set screw to keep the caul in place. Edited November 29, 2005 by thegarehanman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marzocchi705 Posted November 29, 2005 Report Share Posted November 29, 2005 I have a lockable drill press, ive made my own cauls (i saw a tut on here a wile back) i tryed on scrap and it worked pretty fine. we'll soon see how level itl do it tho. I'll come back here in about 2 weeks when ive freted to tell you how it went. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soapbarstrat Posted November 30, 2005 Report Share Posted November 30, 2005 I meant that piece where the radius caul fits on, which I think cost something like $40.00 Those arbor presses give me bad memories. I once had a job where I sat at one for hours a day pressing magnets into castings. Should I reveal my latest fretting idea, which is something that will make a beeping noise ? (no, I don't think I'll reveal it- I've already been labeled a mean guy) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maiden69 Posted December 1, 2005 Report Share Posted December 1, 2005 Should I reveal my latest fretting idea, which is something that will make a beeping noise ? (no, I don't think I'll reveal it- I've already been labeled a mean guy) ← Yes you are, but a very friendly mean guy I can say! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soapbarstrat Posted December 1, 2005 Report Share Posted December 1, 2005 I hope that means Santa will bring me the digital torque wrench Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maiden69 Posted December 1, 2005 Report Share Posted December 1, 2005 Nope, he will give me that! He said you can have the dial one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
music6man Posted December 2, 2005 Report Share Posted December 2, 2005 Hello, I'm interested in trying something different than fretwire. Like the TK guitars and someone else is using 5/32" stainless rod for frets. only problem is finding a 5/32" or .156" DIA. Ball nose end mill to make the slots in the fret board. Any solutions anybody. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mak Posted July 4, 2007 Report Share Posted July 4, 2007 I was sorting thru and organizing all my guitar related files and came across this set of instructions I made last year for someone. This is my basic method for fret dressing. I'm sure others do things differently with different tools. Feel free to add anything that might be crucial. As I don't have much experience dealing with bound necks there might be something to add in that area. I hope this recipe might help those who are not sure of how to go about refurbishing their frets. Fret dressing Tools leveller - 6" to 8" long stone (course/fine) or ft. long fine bastard file black marker triangular file (2 edges ground smooth) masking tape 1 ft. long steel ruler 3" long steel straightedge 400 grit sandpaper 600 grit sandpaper 1200 grit sandpaper 000 steel wool hobbiest's hammer Optional tools but not really crucial sanding block with matching fretboard radius diamond fret crowning file from StewMac stainless steel fret protectors fret press Assessment This can only work on guitars that have fully functional necks. If there are any problems like severe backbow, twisting or truss rod doesn't work etc. then you have to address that problem before fret work. Neck Your best results come from working on a straight, flat surface so you have to first see where the neck is at and then adjust the truss rod accordingly to lower the relief to as near flat as possible. I like to leave the strings on the guitar at this stage because its easier to decide WHICH WAY and HOW FAR to turn your trussrod to achieve no relief. Remember the string tension adds a bit to the relief so you don't have to turn as far as you think. Remove the strings and double check for overall flatness with the steel ruler. I like to work with a lamp for backlight, then you can see light shining thru at the gaps. See if the ruler rocks on any high spots, could be on individual frets also could rock across a group of frets = BACKBOW. If your neck is backbowed then you have to work out some way to get it flat. Most guitars are built with a single truss rod only allowing for forward curvature, loosening entirely just renders the neck straight (if adjustment nut is at the body end of the guitar), at least thats how they are supposed to work. I like the bi-flex truss rod (double rod) which allows for correction both ways. If its a slight backbow you might be able to work around it and string/trussrod tension can set it right. A little tightening on the truss rod might fix it. If you have a severe backbow, and trussrod adjustment isn't enough, you have to fix that before continuing. Clamp it, heat it, steam it whatever it takes. Frets Visual inspection (of course) for: dimples/indents caused by habitual tight vibrato motion at the same place. Flattened areas from repeated bending in all those "sweet spots". Overall lack of height from previous fret dressings. This is where you have to decide whether or not a few frets need replacing, a total fretjob is needed or just a dressing will do. I'll just continue with the dressing assuming there is still some "meat" left on the frets and they are all firmly seated. Just in case, check around with the 3" straight edge, spanning 3 frets at a time, for high or low ones. You might find one that needs to be tapped back down. Or you might find a few that need to be replaced. I can't really say in numbers how low they have to be for replacement. Thats up to you, just compare with the others. Dressing 1. Double tape the wood fretboard between the frets. 2. Ink the top of each fret with the marker and support the neck firmly and evenly. I like a folded up beach towel. 3. Run your stone, file or sanding block (w/ 400 sandpaper) along the fretboard while curving side to side to follow the radius. Even pressure, steady speed, even contact throughout. Keep an eye on how the marker ink wears away. Ink still showing = low spot. You have to continue until that ink is gone working EVENLY over the whole neck. Don't just concentrate on that low area. This is where the results of your initial assessment are important. If you feel you are taking too much off the other frets then that low one should have been pulled and replaced first and then filed down to match up with the others. 4. Re-ink the tops of the frets. They should each have a small flat, coarse landing on the top. 5. Now you want to recurve (crown) the top of each fret. I've been told the diamond file will crown in only a few swipes, but it IS an expensive tool. I use the triangular file with good results. Use the surface of the file with the 2 dulled edges straddling the fret. This way you can touch the tape on the fretboard without tearing it and eventually messing up the rosewood or whatever is underneath. Run the file flat along the fret while "curving" it EVENLY up each side, end to end and crosswise. Eventually you will see the ink disappearing. Stop when you see just the faintest line of ink running down the exact center of each fret. 6. Rip a small piece of 400 grit paper, fold it and smooth the top of each fret by sanding end to end. This should take out the heavy scratch marks left behind by the levelling and crowning process. 7. Repeat with finer grits. 8. Polish with steel wool. 9. Tear off the tape, restring and setup. 10. Play that gitbox! End note: If you have a crappy little noname guitar laying around its good to get a little practice in on that before messing with your $2000 LP. great stuff tnx :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PonchiBego Posted September 19, 2007 Report Share Posted September 19, 2007 My question is do most of you guys use glue to put in your frets? I have read that some people do and some people dont.... I bought this adhesive (http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Glues,_adhesives/Weld-On_binding_adhesive.html) for putting on my binding and was wondering if anyone knew if it would work for gluing in frets? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evtim Djerekarov Posted November 14, 2007 Report Share Posted November 14, 2007 I have refretted about 20-30 guitars till now(not much, but not too few), and I think I have some experience with various successful, and not-as-successful methods. The rosewood and ebony fingerboards are very likely to be quite fragile, and if you just remove the frets with the end nippers, it is very likely that you'll end up with quite many chipped pieces of wood. If the frets, that you are removing, have been glued in, the situation will be yet worse. For that reason, it is very handy to have a 20-30 watts oldering iron (it is sufficient, too much power is not necessary, and may overheat the wood) , and some solder near you, and heat the frets *WHILE* removing them. Even if the frets have not been glued in, you'll observed much less damage to the board when heating the frets. There's not much use of heating the whole fret, and then, when it is too hot, to remove it, thus unnecessarily burning the wood. Instead, you may hold the end nippers in one hand, ant the soldering iron in the other, and heat the fret at a given spot for a few seconds before you use the nippers there. For better heat transfer, you may apply a little solder on the fret before lifting it with the nippers there(the solder is applied very easily on the fret, because the fret surface of a recently-played guitar is free of oxidations, and is very shiny). Also, avoid touching the fret with the nippers while you're heating it, because you'll transfer too much heat to the nippers, and the fret will likely be unable to reach the desired temperature. Lift the fret just after the fret is well heated at the spot. The soldering iron must be one step "ahead" of the nippers. Avoid the binding or inlays with the soldering iron, though. I have not refretted quality maple boards where the lacquer can be burned, if you are not careful. I have read that it is good to cut the laquer along both edges of the fret, in order to avoid chipping off finish, and also chipping off wood, together with the finish, when removing the old frets(because on many maple boards, finish is applied after the frets have been installed). I have never used a press, but only a small rubber hammer(of quite hard rubber, but not plastic). The most common problem is that the fret can not be held well by the channel, and the ends are sticking out, because of the elasticity of the fret. I'm not fond of gluing the frets in with any kind of super-glues, epoxies and other types of glue. I think that gluing the frets in is one of the worst things one can do. Instead, one can glue in a thin veener in the channel, made of hardwood, and then cut a new channel there. Also, it can be tried to apply some kind of hard glue in the channels, so that it make the channels narrower. My experience has shown that most guitars come with fret-slots, wide about 0.52 - 0.57mm. Maybe this works quite well with fretting press, when the fret is pre-shaped to the exact raduis, but i have found this width too unsecure for hammering frets(after hammering, you may slightly lift the end of the fret with your nail!). I'm talking about frets with 0.5mm wide base. This channel width may or may not fit 0.6mm-base-frets well. I have found, that for a secure grip of the fret, I almost always have to recut the channel to about 0.46-0.50mm width. It is also dependent on the wood. Some boards are more elastic, and are more likely to let the frets out, while others are hard, and do not have such problems. It is, most likely, a matter of experimentation, but it is also important not to cut the channels too narrow, because you may break the wood under the channel, and also achievean undesired backbow of the neck. This was what I wanted to say, the rest of the process is well documented everywhere. I think that proper radiusing, and good fretting minimizes the need of leveling, and restricts it to some areas ot the neck. To level frets, i do not use a big leveling file/sanding block. Instead I use three small rectangular pieces of wood(square cross-section of about 1cm x 1cm). The first one is the shortest, and is used for the high frets, which are closer to one another. The second is longer, and the third is.... yet longer, and is used for the first positions. The idea is, that every block has about 1cm long patch of sanding paper at the middle of one side of it. It has the same sandpaper, but with the paper side up all along the ends of the same side(to keep the whole surface level). Imagine three frets. The ends of the block(with the flipped sandpaper) step on the two outmost frets, while the middle of the block(with the abrasive side of the sandpaper facing the fret) is over the fret between them. First, you check (with an un-sandpapered side of the block) the given three frets. If the middle one is higher, the board will not be able to step on the outer two frets, and will flip-flop over the middle one. If the middle one is lower, there will be a strip of light between the fret crown, and the board. This way, you can sand off only those frets, that are higher, and, what is better - only those areas of the fret, that are higher. Of course, this method can not as easily solve a really uneven refret, and you may find yourself sanding many frets. For these occasions, maybe the long fils/block is more appropriate. The process of crowning frets, and polishing is well covered back throughout the topic. I also have some questions for the experts: What channel width have you found most appropriate: 1. For hammer refrets. 2. For press refrets. (if possible, for different types of wood) Also, can you describe in detail a hammering technique that leads to best results(fret accepting exactly the fboard radius while hammering it in, without unnecessary deformations). Greetings, Evtim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjlen Posted January 12, 2008 Report Share Posted January 12, 2008 (edited) Hello all, Having read all of the above thread yesterday I've been thinking about the various problems and think I may have come up with an idea to solve some of these problems though having not experimented I'm not sure of what new problems would be introduced. Distributed Fretting: The particular problems I hope to overcome are wood constriction, slot constriction and neck bowing. The idea is that given a 22 fret neck you'd start by cutting the 1st, 22nd and 11th fret, you'd seat your frets in the slots using your preferred method. Then you'd hit the middle ground cutting say slots six and seventeen, seat your frets then move on maybe frets eight, twenty, fourteen, and three, cutting the slots then seating your frets. I'd also try leaving the neck over night, letting the tension of the neck and fretboard settle and distribute, placing the neck on a flat surface (going at the fretting before contouring the back of the neck and before shaping the headstock), between two weights or in a clamp not putting pressure on the neck but stopping it from moving so that any attempt to expand will be distributed along the length of the neck, also placing some weights on top of the fretboard (distributed of course), just to stop it bowing upwards. The next day you'd remove the clam and weights, and continue cutting then seating frets in the same distributed manner. I can't try this as I have no wood, no tools and not even a work bench but want to build my own guitar, hopefully starting this year some time. I'd be interested to know what people think of this approach, or even if anyone has tried it. It'll take a lot longer doing it this way, but I'd hope to get a much more stable neck as a result. Cheers Steve When I talk about cutting frets above what I really mean is cutting slots. Edited January 13, 2008 by sjlen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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