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Sustainer Ideas


psw

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Hum okay..

I saw a modified black LesPaul in the thread with a driver and a single-coil taped on the neck position, and you tell me not to put the driver close to the pickups, so is that one disabled when the sustainer is engaged or anything else?

I know also that on some artist's guitars (like Steve Vai or Matthew Bellamy), the driver (coming from Fernandes' sustainer) is taped to a single-coil or a P90 soapbar at the neck position..

Do you think that if I put the driver close to my neck pickup, I would be able to play with bridge and middle pickups as sensors, and with the neck pickup disabled when the driver is on (without magnetic interferences as well, especially for the middle pickup)?

I've also thought about something.. If you build a driver higher than wide (for example 17mm high and 4mm wide), the magnetic flux will be spread straight ahead out of the coil, and will less diffuse on sides (to the pickups) than a flat driver, which field lines will make loops around the coil, going thru the pickups... Is my theory correct?

[once again, sorry for language mistakes]

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Hum okay..

I saw a modified black LesPaul in the thread with a driver and a single-coil taped on the neck position, and you tell me not to put the driver close to the pickups, so is that one disabled when the sustainer is engaged or anything else?

I know also that on some artist's guitars (like Steve Vai or Matthew Bellamy), the driver (coming from Fernandes' sustainer) is taped to a single-coil or a P90 soapbar at the neck position..

Do you think that if I put the driver close to my neck pickup, I would be able to play with bridge and middle pickups as sensors, and with the neck pickup disabled when the driver is on (without magnetic interferences as well, especially for the middle pickup)?

I've also thought about something.. If you build a driver higher than wide (for example 17mm high and 4mm wide), the magnetic flux will be spread straight ahead out of the coil, and will less diffuse on sides (to the pickups) than a flat driver, which field lines will make loops around the coil, going thru the pickups... Is my theory correct?

[once again, sorry for language mistakes]

Whwn the driver is engaged, the pickup that acts as a sensor has to be as far away from the driver as posssible to avoid interference and massive feedback ( squeeeeel). When the driver is disengaged, it doesn't matter and you can still use any pickup you want. so yes, on that Les Paul the neck pickup is disabled when the driver is in use.

The reason why the driver is usually placed close to the neck is because it's easier to excite the strings in that position (the strings have more 'play'). Ideally, you'd put the driver in the twelfth fret position on the neck...

Now, the dual coil driver (the humbucking driver) can be placed fairly close to the sensing pickup (so you could use it in the mid position with the bridge pickup as a sensor, or in the neck position with the middle pickup as a sensor); because it's a lot more resistant to feedback and EMI. However, you still get a slight distortion in the signal, which is audible, especially on clean sounds. think of it as a clean sound with a fuzz box added. If you only use distorted sounds, it might not bother you that much.

the theory is that the driver and pickup are effectively acting as a transformer, up until now we still haven`t been able to adress that issue.

your theory about the tall coils....mmm...maybe. I (think) you'd might find the opposite to be true, but my knowledge of how a magnet's shape affects it's field lines is too limited to give a definite answer. One thing I'd like to add though is that the coil in itself does not have a real magnetic field. it's the magnet and the core that create and shape the magnetic field. The coil creates an electromagnetic field which 'piggybacks' onto the magnetic field of the magnet. Again, how the shape of the coil, magnet, etc...affects the final electromagnetic field is very much open to discussion. We've always had best results with fairly flat coils.

I do believe the best way to avoid emi is to use 'no more electromagnetic field than needed' by using a physically small magnetic field and positioning the coils as close to the strings as possible. Positioning the coils close to the strings is easier when you have flat coils (they can lay on top of the pickups). As for the small magnetic field, either you use tiny neodymiums as the core of the driver, or you use the big ceramic pickup magnet that's already below your pickup coil (as explained in psw's sustainer driver pictorial). because it's below the pickup (2-3 cm from the strings), it's magnetic strength in the area of the strings is relatively small.

on the coil wire diameter; I have built drivers with 0.3 mm wire and although it does work, it's not nearly as efficient as the 0.2 mm wire, plus the coil gets substantially larger. You should really use 0.2 or 0.25 mm. Required length for an 8 ohm driver is only about 12 m for the 0.2 mm wire.

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Hi Col, I actually sent a reply earlier that seems not to have made it to the board.....so here goes again

(sorry if you know all this, I just want to make sure) poles of a switch, are like switches within a switch - so a 4 pole switch is like 4 seperate switches that are operated by the same physical actuator (knob in the case of a rotay)

I had managed to glean the little I know from what I have observed.....for example, to me the switch in the diagram seems like a combination of either 4 SDSP switches, or a pair of DPDT switches. So I am grateful for whatever you can add to my limited understanding.

so a 2 pole 2 way switch would have 6 connections, 2 poles, and 2 'ways' for each pole.... so a 4 pole 12 way would have 4 + 4*12 = 52 connections!

The switch I have is a 3 pole 4 way - it will has 12 connectors around the edge - 4 ways for each pole - and in the center it will have three more pins 1 for each pole... Unfortunately, at least with my switch, there are 12 physical positions for the actuator even though only 4 of them make sense (thats what the key is for). Thats because they use mostly the same plastic parts to make 1 pole 12 way, 2 pole 6 way and 3 pole 4 way.....

Yes, I believe mine is the same.

...Ah, I think I understand what you were meaning... The circuit A, B, C & D are the pole connectors in the center? and your 'switch positions' are the outer pins numbered 1 to 12 ?

Yes, you have deciphered my garbled description correctly :D

If that is correct, you should set the 'chuck key' so there are no more than 3 physical positions available. depending on which of the three physical positions is selected each of the central poles will be connected to one of its 3 'throw' pins... probably A to 1, 2 or 3... B to 4, 5 or 6... C to 7, 8 or 9... D to 10, 11 or 12... thats your 4 switches within a switch...

OK, I'm with you so far.....

If you want your rotary to be the switch that bypasses the midlle and neck pickups when the sustainer is on as in Petes diagram, you need to set the key so that only two physical switch positions are available - one will be on, the other off.

The middle row of 4 dots in the diagram are your A, B, C & D connections, the top row will be 1, 4, 7 & 10 and the bottom row will be 2, 5, 8 & 11 (3, 6, 9 & 12 will be unused)

I intend using a SPST to switch the sustainer in and out, then have the rest of the harmonic mode selection done by the rotary switch. But I also need a means to switch in and out the pickups not being used by the sustainer circuit, i.e., on the Ibanez, the neck hb and the middle sc.

thats assuming that A -> 1,2or3 and B->4,5or6 etc. (always triple check the ramblings of an internet aquaintance) Yes, but what I find confusing about that switch is that after the first 3 clicks, it always reverts back to the identical switching of position 1....yet it has 12 possible positions? Duh......

Aside from that, I still need clarification of the diagram, as it is not at all clear to me what it is actually doing. Your explanation was quite a bit clearer than mud, but these questions were not addressed:

What is meant by the terms 'a' and 'b', referring to the neck and middle p/up positions? Why is it that there seems to be a differentiation between the bridge volume and bridge circuit, aren't they one and the same?

What does the positive side of the circuit refer to, which circuit?

Where is the input and where is the output?

These questions might help you techs understand where most players are (well me anyway) in their technical understanding of circuitry, and this might therefore help to produce a more obvious and detailed explanation to us non-electronics experts, which in turn might get more projects started, because with such a steep learning curve, I am sure that the majority of visiting players who access this forum will have been scared off long ago. Remember that we made a choice to dedicate our time to study and practice of the instrument, you guys dedicated your time to understanding circuitry and electronics. For me at any rate there has not been time to devote to studying much outside of music, although there are exceptions. I think it takes a very special type of mind to be able to do both well. A mind such as that of Allan Holdsworth for example. But how many are there of his calibre?

OK, nuff said.

Speak soon,

David

enough rambling from me, I hope that's now as clear as mud :D

Col

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When the driver is engaged, the pickup that acts as a sensor has to be as far away from the driver as posssible to avoid interference and massive feedback ( squeeeeel). When the driver is disengaged, it doesn't matter and you can still use any pickup you want. so yes, on that Les Paul the neck pickup is disabled when the driver is in use.

The reason why the driver is usually placed close to the neck is because it's easier to excite the strings in that position (the strings have more 'play'). Ideally, you'd put the driver in the twelfth fret position on the neck...

Now, the dual coil driver (the humbucking driver) can be placed fairly close to the sensing pickup (so you could use it in the mid position with the bridge pickup as a sensor, or in the neck position with the middle pickup as a sensor); because it's a lot more resistant to feedback and EMI. However, you still get a slight distortion in the signal, which is audible, especially on clean sounds. think of it as a clean sound with a fuzz box added. If you only use distorted sounds, it might not bother you that much.

the theory is that the driver and pickup are effectively acting as a transformer, up until now we still haven`t been able to adress that issue.

Hum okay, I will try some differents drivers and i'll choose the best...

I do believe the best way to avoid emi is to use 'no more electromagnetic field than needed' by using a physically small magnetic field and positioning the coils as close to the strings as possible. Positioning the coils close to the strings is easier when you have flat coils (they can lay on top of the pickups). As for the small magnetic field, either you use tiny neodymiums as the core of the driver, or you use the big ceramic pickup magnet that's already below your pickup coil (as explained in psw's sustainer driver pictorial). because it's below the pickup (2-3 cm from the strings), it's magnetic strength in the area of the strings is relatively small.

This seems to be the best solution for me, to put the driver onto my neck pickup, close to the strings (about 3mm would be ok?), and disable it when sustainer engaged... Once again, I think I will have to try some differents drivers...

on the coil wire diameter; I have built drivers with 0.3 mm wire and although it does work, it's not nearly as efficient as the 0.2 mm wire, plus the coil gets substantially larger. You should really use 0.2 or 0.25 mm. Required length for an 8 ohm driver is only about 12 m for the 0.2 mm wire..

I will try to find 0.2 or 0.25mm wire, seems there's no real choice...

Do you know if I can use old single-coil's polepieces (I don't know the material, but I know the pickup was very cheap) to make a 6-magnets driver, looking like a pickup? (but obviously, with a lot of empty space inside)

Hum, I'd like to know something, Fernandes and Sustainac's drivers are magntically shielded, aren't they? Cause I've seen (for example) on Matt Bellamy and Steve Vai's guitars drivers that were located close to a pickup, and I think it is active when the driver is engaged.. But those are professional indeed (and it could explain their price..). Am I right?

Edited by Franky
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I intend using a SPST to switch the sustainer in and out, then have the rest of the harmonic mode selection done by the rotary switch. But I also need a means to switch in and out the pickups not being used by the sustainer circuit, i.e., on the Ibanez, the neck hb and the middle sc.

For the mode switch, you need at least a 2 pole 4 way, or 3 pole 4 way (depending on the mode circuitry)

If you are going to do the 4 pole bypass, you don't need the SPST, the 4 pole switch does that as well (makes sense to have the on/off switch also bypass the other pickups)

IMO, two rotary switches is one too many - I hope you can get a 4 pole two way toggle switch from somewhere.

If you do have to use a rotary switch for on/off, go the whole way and get a 6 pole 2 way.

That way you can bypass the pickups with no compromises ! (more on that later)

...I still need clarification of the diagram, as it is not at all clear to me what it is actually doing. Your explanation was quite a bit clearer than mud, but these questions were not addressed:

What is meant by the terms 'a' and 'b', referring to the neck and middle p/up positions? Why is it that there seems to be a differentiation between the bridge volume and bridge circuit, aren't they one and the same?

a and b refer to the signal and earth wires from the neck and mid pickups (not sure which is which - depends on the pickups, phase issues etc.). With strat style wiring, the pickups are wired in parallel. Pete took advantage of that fact and chose a compromise that allowed him to switch out both pickups completely and have an on/off all in one 4 pole switch. The compromise is that you can't have the mid and neck pickups fully independant of each other any more. You can have the neck pickup by itself by turning the mid volume down, but you can't have the mid pickup without the neck pickup !

So the a and b connetions are pairs of wires... a has 1 wire from each pickup and b has one wire from each pickup.

Its easier to see in this diagram

sustainerstratwire1.jpg

What does the positive side of the circuit refer to, which circuit?

positive battery is the wire that connects to the positive terminal of the battery

positive circuit is where you would connect the positive power supply to your circuit - so that part of the switch just engages/disengages the battery

Where is the input and where is the output?

Not quite sure about that :D Petes diagram is somewhat confusing with all those dotted lines - theres probably a few pages of posts clarifying what it all means somewhere in the thread :D

When the sustainer is on, the 'hot' wire from the bridge pickup should be connected to the circuits input, and also via the volume control to the output jack.

When the sustainer is off, the bridge pickup should be connected to the pickup selector switch

These questions might help you techs understand where most players are (well me anyway) in their technical understanding of circuitry, and this might therefore help to produce a more obvious and detailed explanation to us non-electronics experts, which in turn might get more projects started, because with such a steep learning curve, I am sure that the majority of visiting players who access this forum will have been scared off long ago. Remember that we made a choice to dedicate our time to study and practice of the instrument, you guys dedicated your time to understanding circuitry and electronics. For me at any rate there has not been time to devote to studying much outside of music, although there are exceptions. I think it takes a very special type of mind to be able to do both well. A mind such as that of Allan Holdsworth for example. But how many are there of his calibre?

erm, as I've mentioned before, the folks here for the most part (at least Pete and myself anyway) are Musicians who have learned some electronics to help them with their music - not techies who kinda like the idea of music electronics.

I don't pretend to be good at either (competent musician, but totally incompetent at electronics... What I am good at is Painting and Computer Programming - go figure). I do like to learn stuff though and I don't learn things unless I have an incentive and a goal - so working on the sustainer circuit was a good way to learn something about electronics.

The reason the project moves so slowly and the explanations are so vague is because 'us techs' aren't ! - if we were techs with a complete grasp of the subject, the project would have been done and dusted yonks ago and the explanations would be succinct and understandable.

Fortunately, in my experience, folks who are good at Engineering and Math related abstract reasoning tend to make good musicians - Same areas of the brain are involved IIRC - so there is a steady trickle of people with some relevant knowledge who are willing to get involved and move things along...

If people come here like I did, hoping for a ready to make sustainer project, then they will either get sucked in anyway and have a go with the unfinished cludges we have to offer, or leave and come back in a few months to see if its ready yet B)... I think thats why there are so many hits to this thread - lots of lurkers returning to check on progress...

Anyway, getting back to the wiring stuff, I guess a lot depends on what hardware you can get your hands on and also how much space you have in your guitars cavity and on the front panel - switches are not the smallest of things.

I think its important to test the basic bridge pickup/neck driver setup and have an idea how well its working. So before getting the fancy bypass switching done, just disconnect the neck and mid pickups for testing purposes. Hopfully by the time you've tested the basics, Pete will be able to provide a more detailed explanation of his wiring diagram.... And if thats not good enough, we can try to come up with something else, e.g. if your happy with two rotary switches and theres space for them, we could setup a 'true bypass' on/off switch and a mode switch... (you'll probably need Zfrittz6s help to get the mode switch wired in correctly - unless the circuit you have is identical to one that he's posted the schematic for - then we can help )

Enough for now :D

cheers

Col

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Hey there...still got ISP problems but amazed at the amount of text that seems to be added every day...

Welcome Franky to the sustainer thread...and thanks to col for answering some of those questions on my behalf for david...lots of problems my end...

So, you want to make yourself a sustainer...

OK...so first, check out some of the shorter threads (see the links at the end of this post)...for you, my driver making pictorial where I show my strat's cheap single coil being modified into a driver and pickup for details of exactly how to go about it...

Countless hours were put into developing the thin coil theory...I would have loved to have been able to make tall coils and the like or to use various wire guages, but these things do matter. The design is simple but unique...a very thin coil directly under the strings maximizes the electromagnetic effect where it's wanted and limits the area from which EMI radiates out from the device. The wire guage is equally imporatant and I did try a few others, 0.2mm wire seems to be the best for a fast coil but one with enough power to do the job. The upsides that they are thin enough to mount on a pickup or perhaps even surface mounted next to a pickup, are just pluses to this scheme...

It does not take a lot of wire to make a driver and most will want to try a few times. It should only take about ten minutes to wind one by hand, the hard part is the bobbin, and a small reel will make a few so you can get it right if at first you don't succeed. You only need a very small roll, from memory mine has about 25m on it and will make a few at a cost of about $A7 all up.

For a strat type guitar, I can recommend modifying a single coil neck pickup (perhaps a cheap one to start with) as you get the magnet and the mounting all sorted for you. There are no sustainers that will work with the neck pickup and Vai and co's fernandes and sustainiac models all work only with the bridge pickup when the device is on. I believe that it is possible to make a mid driver for a strat to replace the mid pickup, but it has not really been done yet, at least by me. You would probably need a twin coil device and magnetic sheilding and possibly a clever coil arrangement too. Tim suggested that his rail sized two coil driver could just work in the mid position I believe...

Regardless of what future developments that may or may not occur with mid drivers and the like, this is a worthwhile project and a lot of fun to play. By copying my basic neck driver and amp circuit idea on a pickup, your guitar can doo all it used to and sustain infinitely. There is a perception that the ability to choose pickups while sustaining would be reall great...but I think it is just a little icing on the cake to something that is already special. My main interest in the idea of a mid driver for strat type guitars is that it could really simplify the installation process and rewiring required and standardize things, at least for this type of instrument. If you wanted to retain the mid pickup for when the device is not running, well I suspect you will be out of luck with what I have in mind...

Also...with magnets...beware those neodyminium 'rare earth' magnets, do not try to shape or cut them. You can use a row of them but even the tiny ones are way powerful. I did get them to work but a standard pickup's ceramic pickup worked a little better. I was just down the bargain A$2 shop today with the kids and found 10 ceramic magnets ideal for this project for...well..$2...they were in a kind of craft area for fridge magnets (about 4mm deep and 6mm round or so and ceramic)...even came on a steel plate that could be shaped for the core if you wanted to go that way...

David...My guitar's circuit diagram is a little confusing as the guitar features a very weird non standard wiring. The diagram of the 4PDT switch alone labels the wires enough for different applications. Basically there is wires from the bridge pickup to both the controls and the circuit, the other poles disable the other pickups and connect the bridge pickup incase it isn't selected, basically over riding the selector and one pole connects the battery power for the circuit. A single pickup guitar is dead easy, just turn the thing on! Similarly, with a dedicated mid driver the whole bypassing issue is not required which is in large part the attraction as the guitar would not really need to be rewired so much as the wiring altered...

Here are a few things I can add to the discussion, but I must confess I have not had the time to consider or read all the current posts carefully...

Do you know if I can use old single-coil's polepieces (I don't know the material, but I know the pickup was very cheap) to make a 6-magnets driver, looking like a pickup? (but obviously, with a lot of empty space inside)
Yes...this is what I intend to do next. Primal made one out of half a humbucker blocking up the lower half of the coil...tere is a drop in sustaining power as you bend the strings between the poles however...hence my blade design...

I saw a modified black LesPaul in the thread with a driver and a single-coil taped on the neck position, and you tell me not to put the driver close to the pickups, so is that one disabled when the sustainer is engaged or anything else?

That was one of my guitars and the device was the "sustain box". This was a testing device that showed in this test that a humbucker did have the potential to be utilized for a driver. The neck pickup was not activated and there were some problems as the grounding was still connected. The pickup had to be lowered so much to attach the driver that it did not operate properly as a pickup at all and a lot more work would be required to develop a humbucking pickup/driver, even though this did infact work.

You can get 4PDT switches that look on the surface of the guitar just like a normal mini toggle switch...as on my guitar...but they are about a $8 and a little tricky to locate. They are small on the surface of the guitar but are twice the width of a DPDT switch (across the direction of switch travel) and so there may be some trouble getting the thing in the location you want.

There was a demand for information about the wiring of the sustainer strat and the extra knobs and switches and stuff on there. That diagram was my response to these questions. A lot of that wiring has nothing to do with the sustainer. I note that there is a piezo pickup on there and you will see a nymber of phase switches and such as well as a completely different type of selector. This was a test instrument for all kinds of structural and electronic ideas. I had no problem routing a big cavity in the back to house the sustainer and it's switches and leave plenty of room for further experiments. My next go at the sustainer will be a much more standardised version I suspect on a fairly normal strat (with a humbucking bridge pickup)... I did try it on some fairly normal strat copies though with just as much success.

The trick is to have a go and take it a stage at a time, make sure it works for you before you worry about modifying or installing it on the guitar, or even modifying the pickup straight off. Even my pickup is a replica of a stand alone driver I made out of cardboard that worked just as well as the pickup version...

There is no need to read this thread, most of the early part was about developing my ideas and answering questions much like these. In later pages we have had a few new ideas but they too are based on the basic formula that emerged half way through the thread. I too shared all kinds of plans and invested a lot into the hex type designs that were very "forward" thinking and high tech. What should be noted is that people have tried to do this kind of thing with various degrees of success, but mostly failure, and none have come up with the KISS thin coil idea that has so many advantages inherit in it.

Although it is simple, there is a formula and variations have shown to be less successful or not worked at all...right down to the wire guage. So three cheers for the DIY doofus's amoungst us for giving it a go and trying till they succeed, a lot more knowledgable people have given up in frustration, so perhaps it needed people prepared to stick at it and to forge a "community" to foster the work of myself and others. That is the true meaning of the sustainer thread and it is amazing that it continues to roll along in it's own way regardless of the changes in people contributing, or even in my abscence...truely remarkable... 92,667 visits !!!!

pete :D

Edited by psw
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hi there pete, great thread. i promised to reply when i had something new. in any case, i was at home in bombay over the last 3 weeks, and decided to exploit our cheap labour forces to the fullest. hence, i designed a double layer PCB about 5X6 cm in size including the rotary switch. all SMD, though. i'll be getting the PCB in a couple of weeks, so i can't say right now whether it works or not. will post pictures then. the design i used was col's.

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Thank you a lot Pete...

I think for now I will try to do a little driver coil with metallic non-magnetized core, and put it on the top of my neck pickup, using the polepieces as magnets for the driver.

Hum about the switching, do I need to switch the neck pickup off with the sustainer bypass switch, or can I just use my 5-positions selector to switch it off? (if I use only 2 positions on the selector then)

For the general installation, I think I will put the circuit in an external box, taped on my guitar strap, a wire running to the driver (will it magnetically stick on the pickup or do I need to fix it?), jack input made out of a former guitar cable, plugged into the jack of the guitar, and a female-jack out, to plug the cable to the pedalboard...

And I will probably do another sustainer for a friend, but there will be no pickup problems, cause he wants to keep only his bridge pickup.

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Hum about the switching, do I need to switch the neck pickup off with the sustainer bypass switch, or can I just use my 5-positions selector to switch it off? (if I use only 2 positions on the selector then)

Pete found that the only way to stop some pretty serious problems was to completely disconnect the moddle and neck pickups from the circuit - that means disconnectin the earth as well as the hot wires - so the 5 way selector is not good enough.

I'm not sure though if this problem will still occur with a dual rail driver... afaik nobody has tested that yet.

For the general installation, I think I will put the circuit in an external box, taped on my guitar strap, a wire running to the driver (will it magnetically stick on the pickup or do I need to fix it?), jack input made out of a former guitar cable, plugged into the jack of the guitar, and a female-jack out, to plug the cable to the pedalboard...

that sounds like a good option for testing. For final installation, you should ideally keep the wire between driver and circuit as short as possible - that wire takes a pretty hot signal and will radiate a lot of magnetic interference. If you have to use a long wire, it may be worth investing in some special wire - this inter weave 8 stuff would be good if you can get it. I made some using their weave, but the real stuff also has magnetic sheilding foil around it which my home brew version doesn't have. (If you try to make it yourself, don't plait it loose then try to tighten it - plait it tight from the outset - its pretty easy when you get the hang of it). Of course the bast thing is to have the circuit close to the driver and have a short run of wire.

fwiw, here's my home brew inter-8 weave wire :D

diyinter8weavewire.jpg

And I will probably do another sustainer for a friend, but there will be no pickup problems, cause he wants to keep only his bridge pickup.

He is a sensible dood :D. definately a low hassle approach to sustaining.

cheers

Col

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For the mode switch, you need at least a 2 pole 4 way, or 3 pole 4 way (depending on the mode circuitry)

If you are going to do the 4 pole bypass, you don't need the SPST, the 4 pole switch does that as well (makes sense to have the on/off switch also bypass the other pickups)

Right.....I am not sure I understand completely, but Juán was explaining his switching to me. Apparently he has used the type of car radio push button on/off switch, combined I believe with a pot. He is going to send one to me sometime next week I think. Anyway from what I gather, this switching turns off the connection absolutely between the circuit and the rest of the guitar circuit when the sustainer is engaged. Juán will probably need to explain this in Spanish, then I will translate it - this is rather over my head I'm afraid, at this point.

IMO, two rotary switches is one too many - I hope you can get a 4 pole two way toggle switch from somewhere.

If you do have to use a rotary switch for on/off, go the whole way and get a 6 pole 2 way.

That way you can bypass the pickups with no compromises ! (more on that later)

I thought that mine having 4 circuits, A,B,C and D was the equivalent of having 4 poles?

a and b refer to the signal and earth wires from the neck and mid pickups (not sure which is which - depends on the pickups, phase issues etc.).

Yes, in my case the two humbuckers in the Ibanez each have 4 conductor wiring, and being custom DiMarzios the colours are not standard either. Red, Green, Black and White and screen. Then there is the s/c in the middle position, which has only a White and Black wire plus screen.

With strat style wiring, the pickups are wired in parallel. Pete took advantage of that fact and chose a compromise that allowed him to switch out both pickups completely and have an on/off all in one 4 pole switch. The compromise is that you can't have the mid and neck pickups fully independant of each other any more. You can have the neck pickup by itself by turning the mid volume down, but you can't have the mid pickup without the neck pickup !

Yes, the E Superswitch does something similar, and that is what is installed in the Strat, when I get around to rebuilding it. In the meantime, I am using my Ibanez Prestige as the basis for this project, as despite having a thin body, which is therefore somewhat more difficult to customise, being passive, unlike the Strat, it presents less of a nightmare when it comes to figuring out the wiring.

Incidentally, as you probably know, Juán used a 6v system for his sustainer project, and he is going to send me the same circuit he used for that to be used in the Ibanez sustainer project. He says that the battery drain is less with that system, and that the circuit is better quality. In any case, the first circuit he sent me got damaged in the post, and I clutzed up 3 drivers just trying them out. But as the pre-amp/CAG circuit was damaged, and I could not figure out how to wire it correctly, I have no progress to report sadly.

So the a and b connetions are pairs of wires... a has 1 wire from each pickup and b has one wire from each pickup.

Thank you, that makes more sense now....

Its easier to see in this diagram

sustainerstratwire1.jpg

What does the positive side of the circuit refer to, which circuit?

positive battery is the wire that connects to the positive terminal of the battery

positive circuit is where you would connect the positive power supply to your circuit - so that part of the switch just engages/disengages the battery

OK, thanks

Where is the input and where is the output?

Not quite sure about that B) Petes diagram is somewhat confusing with all those dotted lines - theres probably a few pages of posts clarifying what it all means somewhere in the thread :D

Yes, but after reading 8 pages of threads in reverse order on the subject of switching, I became more and more confused.... :D

When the sustainer is on, the 'hot' wire from the bridge pickup should be connected to the circuits input, and also via the volume control to the output jack.

When the sustainer is off, the bridge pickup should be connected to the pickup selector switch

Right, I think I see.....

erm, as I've mentioned before, the folks here for the most part (at least Pete and myself anyway) are Musicians who have learned some electronics to help them with their music - not techies who kinda like the idea of music electronics.

I don't pretend to be good at either (competent musician, but totally incompetent at electronics... What I am good at is Painting and Computer Programming - go figure). I do like to learn stuff though and I don't learn things unless I have an incentive and a goal - so working on the sustainer circuit was a good way to learn something about electronics.

The reason the project moves so slowly and the explanations are so vague is because 'us techs' aren't ! - if we were techs with a complete grasp of the subject, the project would have been done and dusted yonks ago and the explanations would be succinct and understandable.

So why has the project not excited interest in tech heads?

Fortunately, in my experience, folks who are good at Engineering and Math related abstract reasoning tend to make good musicians - Same areas of the brain are involved IIRC

I agree that music is very much a mathematical process - the more I understand about the subject, the more I am able to see how much mathematics is involved. And obviously physics too.

- so there is a steady trickle of people with some relevant knowledge who are willing to get involved and move things along...

That's great, but as regards succint explanations and getting the project 'done and dusted', then why should it be that the commercial sustainer systems still do not have much greater capability than those that have been pioneered on this forum among the various projects? The answer is possibly that the whole concept is somewhat more complicated even for their R&D team to resolve quickly. They seem to have gone for what works and ignored the limitations, probably knowing that the customers who matter will not care much anyway...the fact that most of the commercial systems cannot be used absolutely clean, and do not have access to all the harmonic modes, and have a far bigger circuit to fit in your instrument is proof of my point.

If people come here like I did, hoping for a ready to make sustainer project, then they will either get sucked in anyway and have a go with the unfinished cludges we have to offer, or leave and come back in a few months to see if its ready yet :D ... I think thats why there are so many hits to this thread - lots of lurkers returning to check on progress...

Yes, I agree. But the point is that aside from the lurkers, there are in all probability a fairly high proportion of potential users who will have been scared off once they found out the amount of technical knowledge was required. If I had half the sense I was born with, I would be one of the lurkers too. But the truth is that the lure of having access to a working sustainer on my guitars was just too great.

Anyway, getting back to the wiring stuff, I guess a lot depends on what hardware you can get your hands on and also how much space you have in your guitars cavity and on the front panel - switches are not the smallest of things.

Especially true in the case of the Ibanez Prestige.....that is one very good reason to go the project box route. But what I never realized when I first started asking questions about the box was the actual physical connections required to run between the guitar and the sustainer circuitry. It wasn't until I actually sat down with all the components and started to reason it all out that I realized that the one main hindrance to having a modular system that could easily be used on different instruments was the bug-bear of the wires that need to be run between the device and the instrument. The only way around that would be if someone could come up with a way of getting all the neccesary functionality from a connection to the output jack of the guitar and nothing else. At present that seems an impossibility, but who knows?

I think its important to test the basic bridge pickup/neck driver setup and have an idea how well its working. So before getting the fancy bypass switching done, just disconnect the neck and mid pickups for testing purposes.

Have you ever seen the Ibanez version of the 5 way switch? It is not as simple as you make it sound. For a start there are coil taps in order to switch between the humbucking and single coil mode for the in-between position 'Strat' type sounds, then there is the fact that I have wired the circuit using a Star grounding system. That was difficult enough to achieve. I also wired in a push/pull switch to switch in the neck humbucker in all positions. So basically there is a mass of wires there already.

Hopfully by the time you've tested the basics, Pete will be able to provide a more detailed explanation of his wiring diagram.... And if thats not good enough, we can try to come up with something else, e.g. if your happy with two rotary switches and theres space for them, we could setup a 'true bypass' on/off switch and a mode switch... (you'll probably need Zfrittz6s help to get the mode switch wired in correctly - unless the circuit you have is identical to one that he's posted the schematic for - then we can help )

Thank you so much Col for entering into such a detailed explation, and for offering to help wire Juán's harmonic switching. I see that Pete has now posted a reply, I am going to check that out too....

David

Enough for now B)

cheers

Col

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I see that Pete has now posted a reply, I am going to check that out too....

Yes...an irregular contribution and not too thorough read of the posts I am afraid...

It is interesting to see the ideas being driven towards a "done and dusted" approach and the faith that there is a perfect system or massive improvements available if only people would put the effort in. I too shared in some of this belief but I think it is ill founded.

Each application is different nad peoples needs and wants somewhat different. This applies equally to those in development of these things. That is why I have put such an effort in encouraging more people to follow in this process as it is only through many individuals making small discoveries that true progress can be made in anything...

So...for instance...I think that a prescriptive project could be made for a strat type guitar. In a way my prototype did this, but the guitar is heavily modified so not the best example perhaps. A mid-driver could provide a 'drop in system' that allowed for pickup selection between two pickups and low switching requirements. Even if we were to take the present working model, with bypassing, the proceedure is there and really not to technical. People get more bogged down by the fear of it than anything else. Others rationalize away the 'formula'...surely the wire guage doesn't matter, it's the principle right....wrong. The principle is easy, the circuitry is easy, the hard part is the details...especially in deveopment.

The key to the number of lurkers in all this is that DIY is dying art and people dont always realize that DIY ultimately means "doing it yourself"! If we were promoting a stompbox circuit with a bunch of store bought components that you solder together, plug in and play we'd have had hundreds built by now. What we are promoting is something that requires a commitment to modifying an instrument and to think through, plan and execute the making of the crucial component, the driver. The driver is very easy to make, truely it is, and is quite forgiving in that it is very cheap (a couple of bucks) and so can be repeated till just right. But until people actually try it, they really won't realize that.

There may come a time when a more drop in 'system' perhaps specific to a particular instrument is available from people like myself based on the ideas in this thread, but it is probably a little ways off. Even then, it will not suit everyone. If you really consider the hurdles to make a commercial proposition out of this device, the adaptability to everyone's needs, you will understand why there are constraints to there devices and that, once committed to a commercial design, development ceases.

The benefits of the DIY design is it's adaptability and, if appropriately tooled up (already modifying or building guitars, know a bit of soldering or want to make that investment) it is remarkably cheap. It is most unlikely though, even if we were to ignore the possibility of legal constraints arising from patents, that a commercial hand built small production run of the DIY device would be possible for much cheaper than the present systems and that it would still leave the most dificult (and possibly costly and certainly risky) part, that of installation, to the end user.

I am happy to see that this thread inspires and that people remain interested and visit often what ever there reason and it's really heartwarming to see that the conversation continues as it has now for quite some years... sustain on... pete

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Long live the DIY!!

Hum do you think I can use the metal plates inside a transformer to make my core? Or there will be some magnetic interferences due to its former use? (I don't know anything about transformers...)

I just hope the dimensions will be right, I have to check it out...

Hum, and does aluminium plates have some magnetic properties, well, can I make the chassis of the driver out of plates of aluminium?

Edited by Franky
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Good Franky, that's the spirit :D

do you think I can use the metal plates inside a transformer to make my core?
Yes, this type of metal would be ideal if you can get the thing apart and all, a laminated core is probably superior (the plates should be insulated from each other) but really this thing is not that high tech nor needs to be, so ordinary steel from the hardware is easy and pretty cheap, or metal from old computer cases, anything magnetic really...

and does aluminium plates have some magnetic properties, well, can I make the chassis of the driver out of plates of aluminium?

Well, aluminium is technically anti-magnetic, so small that it should be treated as neutral. It is however conductive (electricity can pass through it) so it can have interactions with the coil in the form of eddy currents. It could make a good base plate for mounting but probably be avoided for the top an such for efficiency. Still, I did use ver thin aluminium for my hex cases filled with epoxy, so it may not have an appreciable effect. You can use plastic or even laminated paper...

Tim developed a simple jig to make bobbinless coils but it does require the use of epoxy. This can make things a bit messy and a little dangerous and a lot more expensive than my PVA alternative. "potting" is essential however, in tim's case the potting keeps the thing together. I am considering trying some alternatives to make a bobbinless coil that may fit within a strat pickup cover...the cover will help to keep it together and vibration down and make the whole thing look like a conventional pickup while still allowing the coil to be as close to the strings as possible. This last point is important I feel...

Anyway...good luck planning your approach... pete

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on the fetzer/ruby circuit do we need to use a 22n capacitor before the volume or are there any other options because i cant find a 22n cap.

A 10n should be ok - will change the response a little but still should work ok.

or you could use two 10n in parallel = 20n

or two 47n in series = 23.5n

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hi everyone. im totally new to this site, like others ive found it after a search for this DIY sustainer idea but looking around here im getting really hooked on guitar electronics and such.

my problem is i know a little about electronics but i know nothing about the many terms used like "pot" and "lm386" etc. i wondered if someone could link me or explain a little to someone a bit thick like myself the basics of all this. for example what do i need to buy and where from, the wireing diagrams look nice and simple but putting that together with no easy to understand instructions is a bit scary to me lol. i just want to know if im wasting my time trying this thats all. ive always prefered building to buying for the fascinating and educational side of its id really appreciate some of your knowledge.

im assuming all i need to do is buy a soldering iron, buy a few gadgets from maplins and the rest is just putting it together...

thanks for any help guys.

edit: ive just been looking around here and all i can say is im scared lol, theres so much to learn, as if the driver wasn't complex enough to make theres the circuit board and the amplifier, its so boggling.

Edited by zenabipxr5
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hi everyone. im totally new to this site, like others ive found it after a search for this DIY sustainer idea but looking around here im getting really hooked on guitar electronics and such.

my problem is i know a little about electronics but i know nothing about the many terms used like "pot" and "lm386" etc. i wondered if someone could link me or explain a little to someone a bit thick like myself the basics of all this. for example what do i need to buy and where from, the wireing diagrams look nice and simple but putting that together with no easy to understand instructions is a bit scary to me lol. i just want to know if im wasting my time trying this thats all. ive always prefered building to buying for the fascinating and educational side of its id really appreciate some of your knowledge.

im assuming all i need to do is buy a soldering iron, buy a few gadgets from maplins and the rest is just putting it together...

thanks for any help guys.

edit: ive just been looking around here and all i can say is im scared lol, theres so much to learn, as if the driver wasn't complex enough to make theres the circuit board and the amplifier, its so boggling.

Yep, it is indeed boggling !

'Pot' is short for potentiometer - thats the bit that a knob is usually attached to ! its used either as a variable resistor or a 'variable potential divider'... but just think of it as the circuit side of a knob :D

LM386 is just a catalogue number for a specific component - in this case a small power amp chip. these kind of ID numbers are used mostly for semiconductors e.g. transistors (J201, AC127, BC133...), Diodes (1N4001, 1N4148, 1N34A...), op-amps(LM741, LM358, NE538)...

There are a huge number of available components, some that are interchangable (in some circuits) some that are not, some have similar specifications, some have specialised specs for different applications... basically, you try to get the one that is required for the circuit you are building, and if you can't, do some research and get a few that do the same job with the same 'pin-out' arrangement....

A good example is Jfet transistors, these are sometimes difficult to get, and even ones with the same number have very variable performance, so in many applications its a good idea to try a bunch of different ones to see which works best...

The LM386 is a different beast, its not a standard op-amp, and there's no 'drop in' alternative... fortunately they're pretty easy to find B)

As far as this project is concerned, if you go for the basic fetzer/ruby single core driver detup, and have very little electronics experience, you will probably find the circuit about as difficult as the driver to construct... Its not too bad :D

Main thing to remember is take your time, double and tripple check everything at every stage, then test the circuit using a (known to work) speaker.... that way you will know if its the driver or the circuit that needs debugging :D

There are a couple of other circuits that you really need to take a look at if you've got the Guitar electronics bug - The fuzzface (look for one of the modern diy versions that give germanium sound but using silicon diodes...) and the Dallas Rangemaster treble booster (this is a very simple circuit, and will turn any basic valve amp into a tone machine - think Page, Clapton, May, Gilmour and many many more - they all used similar boosters)...

As far as equippment, you will need a soldering iron, and a multimeter (can get a pretty good digital meter for a reasonable price these days). Get someone to teach you soldering if you're new to it (or get a tutorial vid) - it's easy if you do it right, but easy to do it wrong without realising it.

The easiest board to use is probably strip board (don't buy a strip cutting tool, just use the tip of a 4mm drill bit). If you go for perf board, you will have a load more fiddly work to do making and attaching connecting wires...

Use sockets for ICs (chips that is) and for transistors... these things can be damaged by heat (i.e. ham fisted soldering;)... also its good to be able to switch them for others when testing.... same goes for some capacitors, its nice to be able to swap them for other values...

anyway, keep surfing the web for info, there's lots of good stuff out there - geofex is a good place to go if you've not already discovered it

Good luck, and enjoy B)

Col

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thats excellent Col thanks for all that. the circuit board sounds like a challenge. ive never used a multimeter but i've done soldering. im gonna read you again cos its a lot to take in, my first day and ive learned so much already, it all seems quite complex for what it is at first glance. i just think the price of these things is silly esp here in rip off britain.

thanks again bro, see you around :D

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welcome zenabipxr5

just take things one step at a time, the whole thing is pretty cheap and the ideas not that difficult. The circuitry is pretty simple but we really need to get something a little more straight forward organised perhaps.

At the end of my post are links to several associated threads here on the sustainer. There is one that demonstates the device in action and two tutorials...check them out then check back on us here...I have recently been answering some questions on some of those threads that may be of interest, but you'll get better service if you return to us here on the main thread.

Don't be overawed, it really isn't that hard and is an excellent thing to be involved with if you want to learn a little about electronics and the way things work, especially on the guitar and amplifiers, not just the sustainer...

Keep in touch... pete

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i know this was in the thread earlier but i dont want to find it and i dont kno if it was answered.

i have a single coil that i want to modify w/ a driver and im having trouble w/ it. first i dont know if i should take the pole pieces out? they are also staggerd and would get in the way of the driver.

second is the the magnets are glued to the bottom of the pickup and i dont kno if i need to take them off or not?

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So I'm guessing this is the main thread .... finally found it.

So to clear things up,

30AWG = .254 mm

32AWG = .2032 mm

34AWG = .1601 mm

So your telling me that a 30AWG sustainer will not work but a 32AWG will? I don't really care if the thing is a bit thicker, but shouldn't it still work as long as it is potted correctly and wound to 8 OHMS?

Given that I already bought 30AWG since it was all I could find around here... I would like to use it. My F / R circut is almost done -- and to the EXACT specifications from runoffgroove, so I'll test it with a good little 8OHM speaker.

When the test speaker is hooked up, will it simple play what is coming out of the bridge pickup, or will it vibrate the strings magneticly like the actual sustainer? Also, about the glue, would Elmer's wood glue work or does it have to be a special kind of glue?

I'll post some pics soon so you guys can more easily help me out -- and easily tell me what I've screwed up :D

-MRJSTUDIOS

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So I'm guessing this is the main thread .... finally found it.

So to clear things up,

30AWG = .254 mm

32AWG = .2032 mm

34AWG = .1601 mm

So your telling me that a 30AWG sustainer will not work but a 32AWG will? I don't really care if the thing is a bit thicker, but shouldn't it still work as long as it is potted correctly and wound to 8 OHMS?

Yes, 0.254 or 0.2 should be OK... thats pretty much the accepted working range 0.2 - 0.25 :D. 0.15 is too thin, 0.3 is too thick

When the test speaker is hooked up, will it simple play what is coming out of the bridge pickup, or will it vibrate the strings magneticly like the actual sustainer? Also, about the glue, would Elmer's wood glue work or does it have to be a special kind of glue?

Using a speaker you should get a (not too shabby) small guitar amp sound... you won't get string vibrations without a driver hooked up instead and held very close to the strings. Using a speaker is just a good way of testing and debugging the circuit - it helps you know if its the circuit thats broken or the driver (hopefully its not both :D)

I'll post some pics soon so you guys can more easily help me out -- and easily tell me what I've screwed up B)

Excellent, more grist for the mill :D

Col

Edited by col
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I recently go most of the parts to start this endeavor but I have some questions. THANKS a million in advance.

On the F/R diagram, one of the resistors is labeled "1k5". What does that mean?

For the FET, which prongs go where? I'm using the 2N5457. Actually, I'm using the 5459, will that be a problem?

For the driver, what kind of metal and magnets should I use? I found a bar that's "impregnated iron" that's commonly used for wrapping wire around. Should I use that or just plain old iron? I also found a rubberized magnet thats almost the exact dimensions the blade should be, should I just use that instead of iron and magnets?

Also, about how many wraps gets you to 8 ohms?

What gauge wire should I use?

How can I test the amp before making the driver to know it works?

Thanks again.

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THANKS COl--

Good -- I'll use the 30AWG then. The driver coil depth IS 6mm instead of 3mm, so I hope that's ok as well.

What kind of glue should be used for keeping the wrapping wire in place / potting it? Is Elmer's wood glue ok?

Also-- since I am using an old single crap 'o' caster pickup as the sustainer -- will it work using the existing 6 poles, magnet, and now blocked up to 6mm bobbin?

-MRJSTUDIOS

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I recently go most of the parts to start this endeavor but I have some questions. THANKS a million in advance.

On the F/R diagram, one of the resistors is labeled "1k5". What does that mean?

its short for 1.5k (and easier to read with bad printing/photocopying, handwriting etc.)

For the FET, which prongs go where? I'm using the 2N5457. Actually, I'm using the 5459, will that be a problem?

do a google for fet pinout or for 2N5459 and datasheet. You should be able to find the correct pinout for the 'package' you have.

For the driver, what kind of metal and magnets should I use? I found a bar that's "impregnated iron" that's commonly used for wrapping wire around. Should I use that or just plain old iron? I also found a rubberized magnet thats almost the exact dimensions the blade should be, should I just use that instead of iron and magnets?

I used what I think is steel - although it was called flat iron in the shop. as long as its not stainless steel or aluminium it should work

Also, about how many wraps gets you to 8 ohms?

here is a pretty good calculator.

depends on the dimentions of the core and the guage of the wire.

What gauge wire should I use?

anything in the range 0.2mm to 0.25mm

How can I test the amp before making the driver to know it works?

hook it up to a speaker.

cheers

Col

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