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Sustainer Ideas


psw

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Ahhhh....I may have restored my ADSL connection and my email...about time...

OK...so a quick note...

can the magnets be cut or shaped to better fit under the driver (without me spontaneuosly combusting)?

No...these are rare earth magnets and when cut or broken, these things will break into many tiny powerfull magnet fragments that will fly apart at great speed due to the repulsion of their newly orientated magnetic poles. DO NOT CUT THEM!

I have aquired a bunch of 2 x 2 neodymium magnets as well, so i can get cracking at a side driver. Still have to figure how the configuration of the magnets will be as they have pretty weird magnetic behaviour, and they're probably too strong right under the strings; maybe 2 per string with N-N facing eachother and the string in the middle?

Hey Tim...hope all is well and good to see you are still working on this stuff. Neo mags may well be the go for this type of application and for close side by side coils like cols as the magnets are not aimed at the strings.

These mags are intriguing and I have played with very many of them. Properly configured you can use such things with the Hex devices having 12 mags in them that were 3x2mm discs. Like the side driver idea, and without giving too much away (though there are some notes), with the magnets not pointed at the strings and "balanced" by an alternate pole of a nearby mag of the same strength, they equalize out and so do not adversely effect string vibration...

That said, my conventional coil drivers did work better with a conventional ceramic magnet in that application. I actually came here with the intention of designing different pickups and got distracted by the sustainer idea. Many of the ideas for pickups have been explored here, but if you look at my first post, you'lll see what I was thinking I was getting myself into.

Anyway...should here from me a little more regularly perhaps...though I am in court next week and suffering terribly from stress at the moment... Hopefully there will be some light at the end of this long tunnel, but I'm struggling to see it... Keep me in your thoughts, and I'll be back... pete

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Looks like my best bet is the solid circular magnets- I'll stick all 3 between the driver core and metal baseplate - unless you think 3 mags are overkill.

If you're careful about the physical design of your driver, you should be able to switch the magnets around to try different configs

One thing that has worked for me is to use double sided tape to stick stuff together - it's easy to change things around that way.

I found the best option for me so far has been the alnico magnet from an old humbucker. (I've not tried any rare earths though)

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If you're careful about the physical design of your driver, you should be able to switch the magnets around to try different configs

One thing that has worked for me is to use double sided tape to stick stuff together - it's easy to change things around that way.

I found the best option for me so far has been the alnico magnet from an old humbucker. (I've not tried any rare earths though)

Cheers Col. I like your idea of different magnet configs, so I'll build some flexibility into the driver to allow changes in magnet type, size etc..

Thanks again

Joe

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These mags are intriguing and I have played with very many of them. Properly configured you can use such things with the Hex devices having 12 mags in them that were 3x2mm discs. Like the side driver idea, and without giving too much away (though there are some notes), with the magnets not pointed at the strings and "balanced" by an alternate pole of a nearby mag of the same strength, they equalize out and so do not adversely effect string vibration...

I was thinking something like that, yeah. Obviously for a side driver ala the nakamura(?) patent the neo's would be perfect, but I can't really think of a way to implement them in our 'regular' humbucking bi-longitudinal stand-alone driver AND retain the humbucking effect as one coil needs to be N and the other S. Maybe if I angle the magnets 45 -30 degrees ( that'll be a fun jig!) ? The field does seem to be a lot weaker on the side.

The real problem is even these tiny neodymiums are too strong to use as an internal core right under the strings...certainly when the driver is only 1mm away from the strings, but as long as I can't find some sort of custom tiny ceramic bar, it'll have to do. Just seems a bit silly to go through all the trouble of building miniature coils, and then use a pickup bar magnet which is 3 times the size of the coil :D .

I'll keep keeping you in my thoughts and lots of Mojo sent to you, Pete

Tim

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The real problem is even these tiny neodymiums are too strong to use as an internal core right under the strings...certainly when the driver is only 1mm away from the strings, but as long as I can't find some sort of custom tiny ceramic bar, it'll have to do. Just seems a bit silly to go through all the trouble of building miniature coils, and then use a pickup bar magnet which is 3 times the size of the coil :D .

I'll keep keeping you in my thoughts and lots of Mojo sent to you, Pete

Tim

I was messin around with the 'hard disk' magnets and if you put something non conductive between the magnet and the core you can reduce the magnetic strenght. I used a bit of plastic about 3mm thick and it reduced the magnetism about 1/3. If you wanted to get real flash you could mount the plastic strip to the bobbin with pickup height screws then adjust closer/farther away from the core - though I dont know if the magnetic field would interact with any else in the vacinity.

Joe

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I was messin around with the 'hard disk' magnets and if you put something non conductive between the magnet and the core you can reduce the magnetic strenght. I used a bit of plastic about 3mm thick and it reduced the magnetism about 1/3. If you wanted to get real flash you could mount the plastic strip to the bobbin with pickup height screws then adjust closer/farther away from the core - though I dont know if the magnetic field would interact with any else in the vacinity.

Yes, thats a good point - I wonder how much control you would have over the field using a row of tiny rare earths, and putting thicker or thinner spacers in - to balance out the weaker and stronger strings ?

Maybe someone with a set of little neoDs can give this a try.

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I've finally started building the circuit and it's really coming along nicely. I have a few questions though:

1.) How do you connect the output from the bridge pickup to power the op-amp & driver, and still have it output to your main amp?

2.) I have a strat, can the driver be right next to the neck pickup? Or would that be a problem? Can I still use all three pickups and the driver?

3.) THIS IS CRAZY! I've built everything and I'm testing it on an acoustic/electric, but it's not working. The driver makes a constant humming noise at about 2 octaves above middle G. If I unground the input, it starts whining real loud until you remove the magnet from the driver. But even if the magnet is just close to the driver, it'll whine. I have absolutely no clue what's whining because there's nothing "speaker" about it. Nothing ever over heats, it's just wierd. I know the driver works well because I inputed an Ipod at a really low volume and listened to a much amplified version through headphones. The driver is almost exactly 8 ohms and it's dimensions measure 3mm x 3mm x 6cm. The wire is 30 gauge. The core is not iron, but is instead "impregnated ferrite" which is basically particles of iron impregnated in some material and this stuff is built specifically for wrapping electromagnetic coils. Please help!

Thanks in advance!

Edited by FlashBandit
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3.) THIS IS CRAZY!

ok...time to step back a little...

The driver makes a constant humming noise at about 2 octaves above middle G.
Are you running this from a poorly filtered mains supply, or a battery?...often the mains frequency will generate a G note...

So...test the amp with a speaker, it is just a little practice amp... Are you getting audio out of it???

Now the driver may have loose windings, how was your construction, neatish windings with plenty of glue tightly wound with no loose bits?

OK...so how are you testing this...to test it outside of the guitar...always advisable...hold it above the strings well away from the pickups with only the bridge pickup selected or hard wired to it...

1.) How do you connect the output from the bridge pickup to power the op-amp & driver, and still have it output to your main amp?

connect the bridge pickup to the circuit and to the controls so it splits to both the circuit and to the amp...

2.) I have a strat, can the driver be right next to the neck pickup? Or would that be a problem? Can I still use all three pickups and the driver?

OK...so, the strat is a little tricky for a full install cause you are dealing with 3 pickups two of which need to be completely disabled while the sustainer is on...that means both the hot and the earth wires need to be lifted, I even connected the two pickup wires together to short it out as well as lifting them with my 4pdt switch...

First, get the thing going in test mode though before going the whole way with an install of the driver...

Do you mean, can you put the driver next to the neck pickup? Yes, preferably between the neck and the pickup which is possible with most 21 fret strats (maximises the distance between the driver and the bridge pickup). You will still need to disconnect the neck and mid pickup when in sustaining mode...it was not enough for me to simply de-select these pickups.

But even if the magnet is just close to the driver, it'll whine. I have absolutely no clue what's whining because there's nothing "speaker" about it.

If you have read a few of my posts I describe the driver as a speaker coil and the strings as the moving cone. So it is very much like a speaker...if there are any loose windings in the electromagnetic driver coil these will vibrate and create signals, maybe even cause uncontrolled oscillations as you are experiencing (whining)...sometimes the thing will physically vibrate... The glued potting is very important as is close attention to the winding of the coil. Anything loose in there will vibrate...could be the problem...

The driver is almost exactly 8 ohms and it's dimensions measure 3mm x 3mm x 6cm. The wire is 30 gauge.

Ferrite is an ideal core...not sure where you got it in the right size though...sounds interesting...

As for the dimensions...that cant be right, or are you talking about the core dimensions...in which case that is pretty good. Mine has a core 3x3mm and the coil around it is about 10mm including the core....a little smaller than a single coil pickup...see the photos...

I know the driver works well because I inputed an Ipod at a really low volume and listened to a much amplified version through headphones.

Ummm...so that means you tested the "circuit" yes, not the "driver" which is the electromagnetic coil right!

Anyway...hope that helps...if you are testing the device anywhere near the pickups they will oscillate as you described...the magnet will make this worse as it's passive field couples it directly with the passive fields of the pickups magnets....

The whole thing is weird...that is the nature of the project...it will work, but only if the conditions are right...

pete

PS...what is 30 guage in mm? 0.2mm?

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Hi, not to be a burden on the thread or such, but I have been following this thread for quite a while. As quite the novice in electronics, and after looking over the schematics for the fetzer/ruby amp, I know how to put it together, but I am really unsure of all of the parts I need. I have searched runoffgroove.com for a definitive parts list and have searched all of the sustainer threads (though this one would be more along the lines of finding a needle in a haystack), I feel that the only thing holding me back from actually working on this is being so unsure of what to buy. Thanks for all who help me, and I really think this site is one of the greatest resources for any and all things related to guitars.

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OK...try this...the following is a quote from the pictorial thread....

I've gotten alot farther along since that post.

That's good...you really should join us over at the main thread though...there's more people there to point you in the right direction...

ruby-1.jpg

This is a version of the F/R amp. This was done by bancika who has developed software for electronic software that is super cool. You will find the layout on this page...F/R layout...but to read it you need to download the software. No problem really as it is free and small...see the software tab from that link and down load that and the circuit and then open it with it. You will see that there are a whole lot of stompbox and other interesting stuff available in the layout section...great stuff...

The reason you don't see a lot about the circuitry I guess is that everyone does it a little differently and the driver is at the heart of the project and less familiar to most people. Mine is pretty simple but is not the F/R while in recent times a more elaborate circuit has been developed over at the main thread.

1. that would be ok but you need to block up the bottom of the bobbin (unless you are building it on top like mine) so that the driving coil is 3mm deep at the top of the bobbin.

2. this is not ok. The glue is very important. The windings, no matter how well you wind it will vibrate in operation, work inefficintly and put out radio signals, or at least interferance that will get into the guitar's pickup and out the amp...not good!

3. great...see the pics and software above...J201 should be ok if the pins are around the right way (not all three legs are the same so check it out)...the transistor is for a preamp to avoid loading from the circuit on the guitar's signal...

4. ground to the battery negative but that is grounded via the bridge pickup's signal wires to the guitar anyway, so it is much the same...try and avoid making a ground loop by connecting only once.

5. a single pickup guitar is the ideal set up for an easy installation. A neck driver with only a bridge pickup requires only that the power is turned on at the battery with a SPST switch. A DPDT switch will be required for the harmonic switch.

Just take it one step at a time and test it like you have been doing with a speaker and then by holding the driver over the strings before modifying the guitar...

good luck... pete

Download the software and the layout and you will get a list and a diagram of all you will need for the Fetzer / Ruby amp. The circuit is a combination of two runoffgroove circuits but any small preamp and LM386 based amp will probably do the trick. I don't use the F/R solution myself, but it does work...it was proposed and widely adapted, in the tutorial page. Links to the sustainer threads are at the end of my posts if you missed anything...

Also, bear in mind that the circuit is only a small part of the project, an effective driver is at the heart of the system. This is cheap to make but may take a couple of goes and will require some planning. It is probably best to make a test driver before modifying the guitar, even if you need to make another for the actual install. Better that, than modifying the guitar and finding you have underestimated something. Also, switches and such can cost as much as the circuit and the other parts, in test mode the switches are not necessary either so the initial outlay is pretty low. If you are new to electronics, by a couple of backup transistors in case you fry one and perhaps use a socket for the IC and transistor so that they can be reused or replaced easily. The LM386 is pretty indestructable, but such precautions only cost a couple of bucks and will give you peace of mind...

pete

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Hi,

once again, a newbie question...

I'd like to put a sustainer system on a Brian May Red Special guitar. I'll have a few problems, as the neck is a 24 inches one, with no room between the end of the fretboard and the neck pickup.

The other concern comes from the way I get the sounds I like. I generally have to use more than one pickup for that. So i wondered if it would be possible.

I know the subject has been discussed before on this thread (page 157), but I have another question !

I have an ebow, which works perfectly, even if I put it near the pickups. But it seems that it is mandatory to disconnect the middle and neck pickup when using a sustainer working with a driver. Why is that ?

The only difference I see is that the ebow is a totally separated tool; which the sustainer is not : it uses the bridge pickup to work, which is also connected to the output of the guitar.

My question is : if I put a 4th pickup on my red special guitar, which would not be connected to the output of the guitar, but only to the driver, would it be possible to keep the 3 other pickups connected and to get the desired sustain ?

I don't know if I'm clear... is there a way to achieve this goal, I don't know.

Anyway, thanks for your help !

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Hi,

once again, a newbie question...

I'd like to put a sustainer system on a Brian May Red Special guitar. I'll have a few problems, as the neck is a 24 inches one, with no room between the end of the fretboard and the neck pickup.

The other concern comes from the way I get the sounds I like. I generally have to use more than one pickup for that. So i wondered if it would be possible.

ooo, you lucky blighter - which one is it ?

home brew, guild, RS guitars or Burns ? (not that it matters :D)

btw, theres no room between the fretboard and neck pickup because its a 24 fret neck, not because of the scale length.

I think a 24'' scale guitar is much better suited to the sustainer project, the lower string tension should allow the strings to be vibrated more easily by the driver.

As far as the pickup combos, you could be in for some fun trying to install a sustainer without losing some of your switching options. Is your Red Special stock, or have you modded the circuit to give additional strat style parallel configs ?

I have an ebow, which works perfectly, even if I put it near the pickups. But it seems that it is mandatory to disconnect the middle and neck pickup when using a sustainer working with a driver. Why is that ?

we're not absolutely certain that it is mandatory - Pete had problems and the solution he found was to disconnect the bridge and neck pickup. I don't think anyone has tried out a 3 pickup guitar using a bi-lateral or bi-longitudinal (humbucker style) driver. Also the circuitry may make a difference as may the fact that strat wiring (like Petes) has the pickups in parallel whereas the Red Special has the pickups wired in series.

You should assume that disconnection is required, but hope to be pleasantly surprised when you try it without :D

The only difference I see is that the ebow is a totally separated tool; which the sustainer is not : it uses the bridge pickup to work, which is also connected to the output of the guitar.

My question is : if I put a 4th pickup on my red special guitar, which would not be connected to the output of the guitar, but only to the driver, would it be possible to keep the 3 other pickups connected and to get the desired sustain ?

Its certainly possible, but may not be worth while - adding even more complexity is not usually a good idea - you would still need some fancy switching, and you will need even more space in your control cavity for all the wiring. You have to realise that there are two levels of 'problems' associated with the pickups:

#1 you cannot have a pickup that is 'on' very close to the driver - even if this pickup is not being used to feed the driver, the interaction between it and the driver (through the air - not wires!) will cause fizz, fuzz, grunge etc.

#2 a seperate issue seems to be related to having unused pickups connected to a common earth - in Petes setup this seems to have magnified the problems with parasitic feed back (bad squeeling feedback)

I don't know if I'm clear... is there a way to achieve this goal, I don't know.

neither do we B)

It's an ongoing project. The thing to do would be to try a basic version and do some tests - maybe build a single coil and a dual coil driver to use with a fetzer ruby... that way you can experiment with different wiring configs to see what works and what doesn't. Once you have done that you can decide to keep it as is, go for a fancy agc circuit, or ditch the whole idea.

cheers

Col

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psw, thanks for your help. Unfortunately, I have a few more road blocks, but I'm getting dang close.

Basically, my amp works, and my driver is close, but I can't rewire my guitar. I removed EVERYTHING (electronic-wise) so that I could replace the 5-way switch on my strat with a pot for each pup. I'm also adding the sustainer and there will be no tone pot (for now). Here's my current scheme but it's not working right. Every volume pot acts like a master volume for all 3 pups. Also, I think the F/R amp feeds a signal directly into the output and I get some insane electronic feedback, but no physical feedback/vibrations in the strings. Is this diagram right?

guitarscheme.jpg

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Hi there...have I said welcome to our new contributors yet? If not, welcome to the sustainer thread. Please forgive me that I can not spend the usual time, at this time to discuss matters, as I have some personal legal problems that are taking all my energy....

Anyway...flash...I don't see any bypass in that diagram...how do you disconnect other pickups when the sustainer is on, or are we not at that point yet...Also, although everything shares the same ground, on my strat I needed to lift both the hot and ground and short the coils to avoid distortion and whine through the unused pickups...

I have an ebow, which works perfectly, even if I put it near the pickups. But it seems that it is mandatory to disconnect the middle and neck pickup when using a sustainer working with a driver. Why is that ?

This is a very, very good question that has been asked since the start of the thread, primarily by me. The obvious thing would be to assume it is a self contained feedback circuit/loop. It contains it's own pickup and driver so is independant from the guitar. The next thing therefore would be to assume that if you built a bigger version with a dedicated pickup and the distance was far enough away (given the increased EMI from the larger driver and pickup) then it should work out ok...

But...my tests suggest that this is not so, as I tried using a dedicated pickup but got the same results. I even went so far as to try and design a piezo system (impervious to EMI as it is non magnetic) to use as the driver signal source in the hope that this would do just as you might have thought...but it did not...

This does not answer the question though and the ebow does not have some secret 'mojo'...it is what it is and we have detailed in this thread the technology (the ebow is a sustainer, right) and even given links to proven DIY versions (that have previously been a little ellusive to construct).

I have not had the pleasure of playing with an ebow nor making one (perhaps I should) but I believe there is some interaction with pickups...

All I can say is that in simple tests with independant pickups it did not work as I would have hoped...

As for using multiple pickups with this device, the mid driver seems to hold the best chance, but it has not been achieved by me with these types of coils (the hex devices worked if the mid pickup were removed)...but it would appear to be a possibility with a clever design and set up. We would at least be talking dual or more coils and perhaps magnetic sheilding...

There is so much that people ask of this device that may not be achievable. The ebow patent details an intriguing application which is effectively six fixed ebows that could be individually activated. There is no evidence that this would be workable, and there is some weird stuff as a recall including (from memory) a giant lead block to sheild magnetic radiation between the drivers and the pickups. I recall this because lead is non-magnetic so would be particularly useless in this application, so I don't know what the designers were thinking...a little pie in the sky I suspect...

For now, people this interested, should look at it as an intriguing experiment and give it a go. We do no it will work within it's limitations, so it is not just experimental. But to answer these questions more experimentation will be required. What I would suggest is making a driver and circuit and testing it out, just like an ebow by holding it above the strings. To test the individual pickup idea...get a separate pickup or disconnect one of the guitar's from the guitar circuit (completely) and use that as a source...

I think you will find, as I did, that the driver puts out huge amounts of electromagnetic energy and that pickups are very sensitive devices designed to detect magnetic energy fluctuations (a metal string vibrating in a magnetic field) and so at least will pickup up that signal and greatly amplify it through the pickups. I believed at one point that I had something when I mounted an experimental design on top of the mid pickup with the mid pickup as it's source...or something along those lines....very bad distortion and huge output...but a little uncontrolable. As I recall, you got infinite sustain along with it, but when a note was not playing, there would be an enormous whine and noise, probably from the feedback of background noises and resonances within the system...

All the same...some interesting questions that I wouldn't mind some answers to. Perhaps someone with an ebow can describe what happens when the driver passes over a pickup...at the very least the pickups magnetic fields must attenuate those of the driver and pickup.

pete

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Hi again,

ooo, you lucky blighter - which one is it ?

home brew, guild, RS guitars or Burns ? (not that it matters wink.gif)

Well, home made, but it's far from being finished ! My father (75 years old...) is making all the wood components (neck and body), while I'm working on the metal bits (tremolo, which is rather tricky, and roller bridge).

PICT0143.jpg

PICT0426.jpg

Is your Red Special stock, or have you modded the circuit to give additional strat style parallel configs ?

No, it'll be per original, ie 3 Trisonic PUs in serie.

For now, people this interested, should look at it as an intriguing experiment and give it a go.

Well, I guess you won't know until you've tried it ! That's what I will do (in the next few months or so), with the luck to be able to try different solutions, as the neck is bolt on, which allows me to test it out on different 'fake' guitar bodies, with different PUs and drivers positions. When I find (hopefully !) something working, I can make the real body. As I'm not an electronic wizard, I guess I'll have to buy a commercial solution (Fernandes sustainer) and try to make it fit to my guitar.

Pete, even though using a piezo to use as the driver signal source didn't work in your case, I might have a go with that solution, as it makes sense to me. Maybe I'll be more lucky ??

Anyway, thanks for all the advice.

Cheers.

Manuel.

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So, I was looking into making the driver, and since I'm just trying to use things around my house I was looking for an adequate core for the driver. I really couldn't find anything that was large enough to be used, so this leads me to a couple of questions: 1. Will the thickness of the core effect the performance of the driver? 2. If the core has to be a certain thickness would there be any negative effects of folding the core material over to achieve that thickness?

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<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><span style='color:purple'>Sustainer Ideas</span></span>

I've started this topic to continue some discussions from the topic on Rare Earth Magnets and to share ideas, experiences or links on the subject.

Sustainer systems have always got to me! They appear to offer not just a means of feedback but a whole new dimension to the instrument. If only someone could get them to work effectively!

Heres a your chance to contribute :D

<span style='color:green'>Many years ago I wound a crude coil and ran the guitar output to both my amp and a trashed hi fi amp. The output of this went directly to the coil placed beneath the strings. It worked!!!!!!!!!!!! However some notes better than others, but still it worked!!!!!!!!!!!

Only one drawback. Within minutes the coil heated up like a bar radiator and proceded to melt the electrical tape holding it together. The strings really heated up and the whole thing threatend to catch on fire! Still it worked!!!!!! I've got some recordings somewhere to prove it. Would make a great stage act!</span>

<span style='color:blue'>Any one got experience and info or reference to other stuff on this site or any other, please post here!</span>

PSW & friends I have been following your thread for sometime now & really love the tech stuff.I have recently started a new forum & wish to invite all to check it out & join if you please & please spread the word to other interested in Les paul style guitars

http://www.mylespaul.com/Visit My Website

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Hi again,

ooo, you lucky blighter - which one is it ?

home brew, guild, RS guitars or Burns ? (not that it matters wink.gif)

Well, home made, but it's far from being finished ! My father (75 years old...) is making all the wood components (neck and body), while I'm working on the metal bits (tremolo, which is rather tricky, and roller bridge).

nice.

Are you going for the fully authentic 'block board' wings for the body, or just doing the usual mahogany (with resonator pockets of course)?

Is your Red Special stock, or have you modded the circuit to give additional strat style parallel configs ?

No, it'll be per original, ie 3 Trisonic PUs in serie.

good, that makes it easier to have one switch to isolate the bridge pickup for sustainer mode.

For now, people this interested, should look at it as an intriguing experiment and give it a go.

Well, I guess you won't know until you've tried it ! That's what I will do (in the next few months or so), with the luck to be able to try different solutions, as the neck is bolt on, which allows me to test it out on different 'fake' guitar bodies, with different PUs and drivers positions. When I find (hopefully !) something working, I can make the real body. As I'm not an electronic wizard, I guess I'll have to buy a commercial solution (Fernandes sustainer) and try to make it fit to my guitar.

Before deciding to go with a commercial unit, it would be wise to contact the company and explain what you are attempting to do - hopefully they will be able to tell you wats possible with their system and whats not. (you can then report back here :D)

e.g. they will not offer you a thin driver that you can piggyback on your existing pickups, they may have restrictions on switching configurations and also will have little of no flexibility when it comes to circuit size and shape...

Pete, even though using a piezo to use as the driver signal source didn't work in your case, I might have a go with that solution, as it makes sense to me. Maybe I'll be more lucky ??

Hmm tricky one this... some of the problems come from the driver interacting with the pickups that feed the amp, in this case using a piezo or a seperate sustainer pickup won't help.... basically, you might be able to avoid nasty squealing feedback, but you will still be prone to unnaceptable noise and bad sounding fuzz in your guitar tone... other techniques are needed to help deal with htose issues.

The ebow sidesteps these issues partly because it is handheld, so any fizz and grunge effects are variable and under the players control so they become a 'feature', but mostly because it is only sensing and driving one string. Not only is the driver only required to produce roughly 17% of the power, the pickup can be much smaller so its field is more localised and therefor less succeptible to stray driver radiation... the combination of these two features make the single string design MUCH less susceptible to crosstalk issues like squeal, grunge and fizz... note that although the ebow patent includes a 6 string design, this was never released commercially (afaik) I wonder why :D

cheers

Col

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Good Answer Col...as usual :D

The DIY sustainer has some advantages and shares all of the problems of any other sustainer system. Plus, both systems do require a lot of planning and comprimise for installation. That is not to put them down or suggest that this project is superior, it very much depends upon an ability and perserverance.

basically, you might be able to avoid nasty squealing feedback, but you will still be prone to unnaceptable noise and bad sounding fuzz in your guitar tone... other techniques are needed to help deal with htose issues.

Yes, that is my impression too... So, what kind of techniques could be used to avoid these things do you think?

As for the piezo idea. That was just one of a few things I was trying (I did try a separate conventional pickup) but one that was the obvious next step if you were to think that a separate pickup would cure all ills. I reached the same conclusions as col there and I don't see the multiple ebow thing working at all...based on my hex work anyway...there is a lot of interaction between multiple drivers as well as pickups.

e.g. they will not offer you a thin driver that you can piggyback on your existing pickups, they may have restrictions on switching configurations and also will have little of no flexibility when it comes to circuit size and shape...

These are some of the obvious advantages to the DIY route with this device. Another is cost. It would be great if the device could be a little more standardised and the results a little more predictable. To do this, more people will need to have a go and contribute ideas for various applications. It is interesting to see how many of these projects are planned for fairly unique guitars and applications, so it is not really surprising to find the DIY version of interest...

I really couldn't find anything that was large enough to be used, so this leads me to a couple of questions: 1. Will the thickness of the core effect the performance of the driver? 2. If the core has to be a certain thickness would there be any negative effects of folding the core material over to achieve that thickness?

1. Indications seem to be towards a relatively thin core, mine is 3mm wide ordinary steel, 5mm would probably be as wide as I'd want to go (the width of pickup poles) but the sustainiac devices have quite wide cores with plates on top of them, so it is not quite known what is optimum. Our device though is a different design to the commercial units, though the principles are he same.

2. Folding the core sounds a little tricky. If you have found some thin steel, maybe even steel from a computer case or even a steel can, this would work, perhaps even better than a solid core if it were laminated. A laminated core is just layers of magnetic material separated from each other...the glue or double sided tape would be enough to insulate the layers, but even if they touch it won't matter (it is not like shorting out electrical contacts). A row of screws or bolts is also possible just as with pickup poles. I found thin spring steel, very magnetic, in the gutters! 3mm wide...odd I thought...turns out to be from the street sweeper's brushes that are made of steel that are thrown off nownagain...

pete

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My driver is not working, and I have no idea what's up! I wrapped a small thing of ferrite (3mm x 3mm x width of neck) with 30 AWG until 8ohms. I potted it with regular elmers glue and attatched it all up to a working fetz/ruby. It does not vibrate the strings, but it does interfere with my pickups and cause some sort of feedback. What do I do? Please help!

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My driver is not working, and I have no idea what's up! I wrapped a small thing of ferrite (3mm x 3mm x width of neck) with 30 AWG until 8ohms. I potted it with regular elmers glue and attatched it all up to a working fetz/ruby. It does not vibrate the strings, but it does interfere with my pickups and cause some sort of feedback. What do I do? Please help!

assuming you have double checked that the coil is still 8 ohm, and you are sure that the direction of your magnets poles are correct (very important this - most bar magnets have the poles at the ends - this will not work - you should be alright using a pickup magnet as long as you have it correctly oriented) and you have verified that your circuit works by using a speaker... you should hold the driver above the strings as close as possible without touching - and as far away from the pickups as possible - somewhere near the 12th - 14th fret if your lead stretches that far.

if you still get no effect, then you will have to post more details of your rig, and ideally some good photos. also describe better the kind of feedback you are getting - more details please :-D

good luck

Col

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Hi guys,

I just posted to another part of the forum and thought you might be interested in checking it out....although it involves my project guitar - the Strat - it is not entirely irrelevant to the sustainer forum as the guitar is my project guitar for the sustainer project. This will make more sense when you read the post and look at the photos on photobucket. I think there are some ideas that might well help several of you at some point. :D

Here is the link:

http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=29056

I would be interested in your opinion.

Thanks,

speak soon,

David

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OK, I've got pictures. Basically, I found that I wasn't orienting the magnets correctly, but now it works a little better. I just set my driver on top of my neck pup and it magnetized it. It sustained at a very low volume/amount though... disappointing... how do I fix that? Also, I have a DPDT for phase switching the driver and when I run current through it one way (I think it's the harmonic mode, it resonates a per 5th above) I'm more or less fine. But when I switch it, it sends radio-ish feedback to the other pups and it sounds bad. Any thoughts to help? And if I were to rebuild a new driver, could the core be steel instead of iron?

DSC00825.jpg

Driver at 8.5ish ohms. 3mm x 3mm x 6cm.

DSC00826.jpg

Fetzer/ruby amp, works properly.

DSC00827.jpg

The whole shebang!

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It does look like the potting could be better some loose windings on the outside....if you're willing to destroy it and remove the bobbins you can examine how good/bad the potting was. It can make a big difference in output and feedback (squeal) resistance. I'm personally not a big fan of PVA glue, but I wouldn,t expect you to use epoxy right away anyway. Try winding pretty tight, apply glue while winding and push/stroke it in with a small stick...when you're done winding, apply more glue and wrap some tape around the driver (tightly) to really squeeze it in there.

Most importantly, don't get discouraged, it takes a few tries depending on your skill/experience. Yours looks better than my first try (the left one, also PVA):

51.jpg

oh, and steel is fine

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