psw Posted August 9, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 9, 2004 monkey........... you gotta read this stuff, I'm sure there are pages on this thread on this and the fernandes and the floyd, etc. In fact I even put direct links to their patents!!!!! GET WITH THE PROGRAM Meanwhile, tested out some of the old designs...the CP1 really sounds good...even better with the preamp I'm using since it was first made... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovekraft Posted August 9, 2004 Report Share Posted August 9, 2004 dude. i asked and LoveKraft got mad at me. No, I did get somewhat irritated that you asked how to build one when it was obvious from reading this thread that all the info we had was in the patents. At some point in 16 pages of posts, if someone had known how to build one from scratch, he or she would almost certainly have come forward with that info. As for the Sustainiac patents, there are several - try doing a patent search for Hoover, Alan A. in the inventor field at the Patent Office search page: Patent Full-Text and Full-Page Image Databases. You could also just search for the word sustainer. The point I've been trying to make is that if you're interested in finding out about this stuff, you'll have to do a little research on your own, because nobody here (at least so far) is going to be able to tell you exactly how to do this stuff. It's just as easy for you to use the search engines as it is for anyone else, and since you have a vested interest in the results, you'll probably do a more thorough job. Just think of it as homework. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted August 9, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 9, 2004 Thanks LK Now monkey I'm going to tell you that all of your questions have been answered elsewhere in the thread. It is not possible that you have read it all, let alone understood it, so how could any of us help you... Since you want specific directions, I want you immediately to go to page seven, second post with the word LINKS on it. This posts links to a lot of patents directly, no need for you to bother yourself with actually searching for it... Now before I even joined this forum I did months of searching on pickups and sustainer systems. I've never found anything specifically on how to build an ebow and was led here purely by my search for sustainers, bringing up Ansil's Sustainer Mod. Before you ask, this is different from what I'm doing... Now I have (despite my current crap job) a Post Graduate Degree in Information Services, that means I know what I know what I'm doing when I say I've looked. But don't be put off, I'm sure there's plenty more out there, I just can't find it. Like LK, I'm not mad at you either, I admire your curiosity but really, put it to use. Your posts are on every subject under the sun, concentrate on something achievable and really, really read stuff..and read it again and again. I realize your young, but give us a break here...even if I told you, I know that you don't have the equipment to make it possible let alone the know how. For Monkey, and everybody including myself I will down load the entire thread and index it sometime... At the moment though, low priority Now for developments I have built a compressor/limiter/preamp to act as the front end to the 386 amp to test drive these things upon LK's suggestion. I tried stomp box compressors but I think the gate is more important and it needs a preamp anyway... Had quite a few failures today with drivers so I went back over some of the other prototypes...the CP1 still works great...enough to renew my faith in the project. Going through the posts I saw it mentioned that it took the sustainiac boys 10 years to get to this stage, even after getting a hold of Micheal Brooks infinite guitar! Hope it wont take that long psw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkey69962000 Posted August 9, 2004 Report Share Posted August 9, 2004 ok ill read the tread. I know a little more now so ill see. i wont post for a while till i found something new. about a 30 min later. Ok i saw the the questions i had. Sorry psw. Um nothing i can think of is new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkey69962000 Posted August 10, 2004 Report Share Posted August 10, 2004 i havn't found anything on this question. I ctrl-f it. well what if you took a humbucker and make the pulses like i said earlier but this time the pulses switch really fast between the 2 coils which have one coil with north and one with south magnets. then send a magnetic current from the strings and then the vibrating from the string will be sustained. Well if its already answered on this thread i couldnt find it so dont get mad please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovekraft Posted August 10, 2004 Report Share Posted August 10, 2004 well what if you took a humbucker and make the pulses like i said earlier but this time the pulses switch really fast between the 2 coils which have one coil with north and one with south magnets. then send a magnetic current from the strings and then the vibrating from the string will be sustained. I'm sure psw already explained the problems with pulsing the string to you.... Yep, here it is: For now, If you send a simple pulse the string will try to vibrate at the frequency of the pulse, not the note being played. It wont even do that unless it is close in resonant frequency to the note of the string...Also EMI would cause the pulse to be heard through the guitars own pickups...not good Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkey69962000 Posted August 10, 2004 Report Share Posted August 10, 2004 i know about pulsing is wrong but i mean you can have the pickup spin in a circle around the string to make it vibrate instead of pluse. But that would be 6 different spinning drivers and pickups. Plus that means like 6 9v batteries for 6 motors. Its a lot easier to take the path PSW is but thats one idea to look at. Also a sensor to find the frequency of the string to tell the pickup how fast to spin for the correct frequency. Well forget this idea. It wont work put it could be a new direction to look at a sustainer. Spinning the pickup would be interesting. It would cause the string to reamin vibrating even when yo dont pluck it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted August 11, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 11, 2004 Actually... I did try putting a weighted motor on the tremolo system to physically shake the strings...but...motors and pickups don't mix as they create enormous EMI and there are all sorts of physical reasons why unrelated (to the note of the string) vibrations, whether they be physical, electrical or magnetic cause all sorts of strife... Where did Andreas go when we need him... You may not have heard of the Gizmotron...this was basically a set of spinning discs with tiny picks on them...similar to the Hurdy Gurdy in concept Anyway, this is why I'm approaching it with separate drivers for each string but I strongly believe that this will only be of benifit if there are separate pickups as well as the drivers will attempt to vibrate a string with a mixture of that note and others from other strings, defeating the whole concept. Hence the interest in piezo's as they are non magnetic, they are less likely to be influenced by the driver's changing magnetic fields... Another thought I had recently was to use a Hex pickup to delete or filter out (through phase cancellation / inverted amplification) unrelated signals for each strings driver... I'm still thinking through ways in which the drivers can be used as both pickups and drivers (I know they will work independantly as either). The thoughts have been along the idea of fast electronic switching between sensing and driving...I haven't discussed it here before as I haven't thought it through or experimented much with it... Not giving up psw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted August 13, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2004 Well as promised…at long last…SOUNDS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now, before anyone criticizes my playing or the sound quality…bear in mind that the guitar was falling off my lap and I had five knobs, the pickup selector and the cassette player to operate at the same time! Also note that I was using a single driver on the B string only…that means I could only play up and down this string, mostly legato and tapping. The sound used was an ultra-clean tranny amp, no effects and a jap strat copy with noisy pickups…The squeals I think are microphonics from the pickups. This would have occurred if I were playing this guitar through a loud amp anyway. This, also…despite what it sounds like, was not loud. It’s also not distorted in the usual sense…the drive signal is distorted which distorts the way in which the string vibrates, not the signal from the string…this is a fundamental difference that may open new doors for this type of device… The driver was one I found in my box of prototypes that I go back to every now and then. I don’t even think I documented it here but it’s loosely based on the CP8x concept from memory. It’s about 4mm high and was stuck with DS tape between the bridge and middle pickups. Also, I have never recorded to digital and I’m not really net savvy…(Thanks Mike B for the tips) But enough excuses…. SUSTAIN DEMO 1 (blue3.wav) My apologies for the size of the wave file (870 kb) and the quality… Now, this is not the way I would normally play, just noodling around, and it’s not really what I ultimately want from the device…but…it’s sure got sustain! I thought the whammy abuse would appeal to the young folk out there! There are sections showing how it breaks into harmonics, plays harmonics automatically (fretted note an octave lower), and of course very long notes. What isn't demonstrated is the theremin type sounds and more subtle bowed type sounds from the neck pickup...what I'm saying is...it is a lot more versitile than this demo. Hope this rekindles some interest, or at least give a better idea of what this thread is on about… psw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovekraft Posted August 13, 2004 Report Share Posted August 13, 2004 Very nice! I think you're making real progress! I also think we can filter some of the hash out of that signal fairly easily, although i love the out-of-control fell of some of that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted August 13, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2004 The secret of controlling it seems to be to adjust the input gain via the guitar's volume control...depending on the pickup selection. There are two types of feedback at work...the electromagnetic infinite sustain and that out-of-control "inductive" sustain as found in Ansil's Sustainer Mod which causes feedback because of the EMI of the driver being so close to the pickup. Changing pickups changes from a smooth, fundumental, soft violin type sound from the neck pickup to that screaming sound from the mid and bridge and that octave harmonic from the bridge...combining the neck and mid gives a combination tone and the mid/bridge gives the scream with the octave jump with a little bit of vibrato... It's a little extreme for me...but I hope you all enjoy it psw p.s LK get some sleep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted August 14, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2004 More, shorter and better sound samples coming soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted August 14, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2004 Here are some more sound samples : These were recorded with the same set up but instead of trying to play the guitar, I just put it in a chair and fretted notes by gently tapping them (don’t have to hammer on like EVH) just enough to get a little sound, the driver does all the work. Sliding is also enough as you will hear. Here’s a short sample of the open b sustaining…it soon jumps an octave. The note was simply damped to stop it and that’s how quiet it is using the neck pickup only when you stop a note http://www.fullservesite.com/pswsite/Susta...ounds/long1.wav This sample is of a long note with the bridge pickup with both magnetic and inductive effects causing a more extreme edge, increased volume and quick harmonics. Some sliding notes show how the harmonic effect is often instantaneous. The scratchy noise is the effect of no sound being played at this setting where the pickup and driver (only 10mm apart) interfere with one another) http://www.fullservesite.com/pswsite/Susta...ds/longhrm1.wav A little sample of sliding with harmonics and sustain (no picking at all). The little microphonics at the end are something that needs to be filtered out and occur only when the note is not being played. http://www.fullservesite.com/pswsite/Susta...shortslide1.wav Sliding a finger along the b string with the neck pickup to try and get that swell attack. By the way, I just damped the string to stop it…you could just turn off the drive circuit and get the natural decay of the instrument…you don’t have to cut the notes short and get that backwards sound. http://www.fullservesite.com/pswsite/Susta...slowslider1.wav Here’s one pulling off taps to the open b plus sliding notes and harmonic effect. Notice that if the taps were too hard you get a harmonic pretty much straight away, if soft you get a swell into a note. Neck pickup I think. http://www.fullservesite.com/pswsite/Susta...s/tapslide1.wav Here’s a held note…the guitar’s volume control was adjusted…the high pitch at the end was almost off. There is a point in which from the harmonic that’s sounding goes back to the fundumental, this was about number 6…so backing it off just right will give that effect but difficult to control by hand…room for an electronic solution…instant whammy pedal! http://www.fullservesite.com/pswsite/Susta.../volchange1.wav So I hope you can see some of the potential here…and there’s a lot more I’m sure. And bear in mind this is with one string only…imagine what you could do with whole chords…distortion drive signals for hexophonic distortion…or synth type effects…or amazing two handed tapping and counterpoint without having to smack the fretboard…. Thanks for listening psw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeB Posted August 15, 2004 Report Share Posted August 15, 2004 Thanks for the audio! It gives me good insight into what you are doing, interesting sounds! I might have a dabble with one sometime, to see what happens, you never know! Keep it up! Any new designs on the way? thanks psw! Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biohazard Posted August 15, 2004 Report Share Posted August 15, 2004 Unfortunately i've been a little too busy to listen to the smaples yet. However, I will get to listen to them and i look foward to doing so. Keep up the good work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregP Posted August 16, 2004 Report Share Posted August 16, 2004 Great to hear some audio examples!! At this point in time, the unrefined beast is still producing some unmusical sounds, but ultimately it sounds like (er, this time, literally!) you're making good headway! I'll continue watching this thread with great interest. Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted August 16, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2004 Thanks for your posts and PM's, much appreciciated Yep, there's still a way to go but lets recap what has been achieved: A small new technology that has proven capable of sustaining a string A more cost effective and user friendly system A system that looks like it may need very little modification to the instrument A system that, in it's present form, could probably achieve the results of present systems...if the same limitations were applied to it. On this last point...if the drivers were placed by the neck pickup and only the bridge pickup was used (as with the fernandes and sustainiac system) and true polyphonic sounds were not paramount...I think my drivers could match it. What I'm trying to do is take it to the next level: True polyphonic sound and choice of pickups...I'd also like to make use of that screaming inductive feedback but without the noise... The demo's were recorded direct onto a little cassette player then transfered on the lowest quality wave file on Microsoft's Sound Recorder to keep the file size down...not good. There are noises, microphonics and the like that need to be suppressed but when using the drivers far enough away from the pickup being used...it is dead quiet! This is something that will be addressed...through all this I've been working on driver design, very little attention has been put into the amplification, and none into filtering, etc. I am collaborating with LoveKraft on this and bow to expertise in this area. I have sent him a driver and behind the scenes both of us are working on ideas. For my part, I'm working on some problems of constructing a practical Hex system, manufacturing techniques and exploring a complimentary Hex pickup system, should that be necessary to separate the signals. I also have some unique ideas for driving systems using digital logic...but...I've got to learn more, experiment, or find someone who has knowledge in this field. So plenty of work to do but the fact that it works at all is something of an achievement... cheers psw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted August 18, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2004 Progress Report... Have made hex prototype which works for all strings individually and provides fundumental and harmonic modes by reversing driver polarity. It's mounted midway between the bridge and middle pickup. With the neck pickup driving and to the amp there is NO noise! This shows that the technology I've been working on will work to a similar performance to currently available systems. The task at hand is to get the circuitry happening to drive all strings polyphonically and restore pickup choice. This may involve the development of a complemantary Hex Pickup System...I have had some initial results using the same approach as I have used on the driver design. Again it comes down to electronics! psw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biohazard Posted August 18, 2004 Report Share Posted August 18, 2004 Wow, cool. Incredible news psw. One of the most exciting parts of logging onto this forum is to check up on the amazing progress you are making with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruyzalim Posted August 19, 2004 Report Share Posted August 19, 2004 you bet ! im here every day looking for advances Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted August 19, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2004 thanks guys...may post some more sounds soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted August 19, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2004 Here's a pic of the latest driver.... New Driver and here's a poor pic of the test guitar...a Legend (made by Aria) cheapo strat with the original driving circuitry in the black box taped to the back...a couple of compressors...not in use in the background. you can see how hard it is to play the instrument lying down on a chair!!! Strat Setup psw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregP Posted August 19, 2004 Report Share Posted August 19, 2004 That is, I WOULD be able to see it if the picture weren't so fuzzy. JK, cool to see what the thing actually looks like! Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G_urr_A Posted August 20, 2004 Report Share Posted August 20, 2004 I've been following this thread, but I can't remember this has been asked, so I'll ask. Approximately how much do the components you put into one driver cost? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted August 20, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 20, 2004 Well...how much is my time worth....hmmmm Research and Development has been expensive.............hmmmm I'd say at least half the cost of present systems when its finished depending on the final design if all goes well, maybe less...more than an ebow though. The components are fairly cheap but a little hard to source. Whats good about this concept is that it can be easily fitted without physical changes to the instrument...impossible with present systems...and it should not have any effect on playing or tone when not in use because of it's small size. I will probably look a bit like a single coil that mounts on the guitar surface just ahead of the bridge pickup (well thats the idea)... the wires will probably enter via the pickup cavity. It may be built into an enlarged humbucker pickup mounting ring for a les paul type or, for a strat, a special cover for the bridge pickup or cutting a little away from the cover should allow enough room for the ribbon cable to enter the guitar. I'll give it a bit more thought, but like everything.... What would you guys pay for something like this...after all, an effects box or pickup costs a bit and this is totally new and hand built! psw Or did you mean just this one little driver for one string without any circuitry? About a dollar (70c US). It's all about design, ideas and sourcing of components...its not as simple as you might expect...but that's a secret. The whole point was to make this, not only superior but affordable. P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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