psw Posted December 8, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 Oh Yeah...I' Baa-ack Just a real quick one...I'd been kind of glad to see the sustainer thread leave the front page and people getting on with their lives...however... I've been working on my super secret, super bridge...er it needs a name but I can't tell you much about what it does...ok it does everything. So I'm halfway through the prototype and thought, you know I think this opens a new avenue on the sustainer... Now the bridge project originated out of this as I wanted to make room for electronics and play around with some ideas related here. So, in a sudden moment of action I was able to put together (using some of the stuff I'd already developed) and what I have gotten to so far on the bridge (which is fitted to the guitar by the way) and the thing works!!!! It will take some more development but would represent a third generation of drivers and provides a viable, and perhaps improved, alternative to the Sustainiac style pickup based systems.... This may take some time...but I'm EXCITED!!!! psw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkey69962000 Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 (edited) i assume you said third generation that its still a hex drive? also dont forget about sound clips when done. Glad to see your back on the project Thanks Edited December 8, 2004 by monkey69962000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biohazard Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 Hey psw, sorry I got confused but if I interpreted it correctly, you have done what Graph Tech haver done with piezo acoustic stuff. You have the sustainer piezo's or whatever you use in the bridge saddles so you only need the bridge and this then groes through into your guitar's cavity. Am I right at all or way off the point? Good work anyway though. Sounds really impressive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted December 8, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 Here's a link to my post on Daveq's Stealth Plus Thread: psw's stealth plus post I really can't do a lot of work with the sustainer project because I have my hands full with these other things...but they are related. My new bridge is also mind blowing in it's potential and I'm adapting some of the work we've done on this thread to some new pickup designs which will be very special too. Both are coming along but I've traded the soldering iron in for hacksaws and files just now! Yes Bio, but this was where we were up to before this development! I really should index this thread...anyone wan't to try and summarise it could email me so I can check and post it! In the meantime, here's how I kind of look at it: In the begining, I made several conventional coil based designs, originaly trying to replicate the Ebow effect and test Ansil's sustainer Mod (which had originally attracted me to the site) This became the CP1 and worked, and still does work, surprisingly well. Enouraged, I continued to develop driver designs that were smaller (mainly thinner) to avoid modifications and the removal of pickups. This went on for some time...On page seven I posted links to various patent's etc for people's reference and to provide information relating to the lively discussions about circuit design...mainly between me and LoveKraft. Next came the second generation of drivers. After finding it impractial to hand wind coils as small as 5mm I discovered a new way of manipulating magnetic fields and new field arrangements. These were so small that you would need one for each string. Thus, they became hex drivers. To complement them fully we felt that six pickups would be advantagous so I began looking at ways to do this. One way of doing it was the undersaddle piezo system and I did a lot of work on this. This work was not really posted as the pickups did not really involve the sustainer. The system was also becoming unweildly, six drivers, six pickups, six lots of circuitry....time to take a break. So, Bio...mention was made of the GraphTech system...this would be an ideal pickup system for the Hex drivers. I should also say that I have a set of GraphTech saddles and have been very impressed. I had'nt realized how far they had come in their development but they now have developed their ghost system to a true midi hex pickup. This was something I thought would be the obvious extention...and they have done it...very well apparently! Now I can't devulge anything at this point about the third generation of drivers mentioned in my last post. Kevan, god bless him, would probably save me from myself and edit it out if I did! But, no, what your describing Bio is the end of the second generation's progress. The third generation is completely different in everyway, and that's all I can say at present...sorry! It will take a while for me to do any significant development of these ideas, but the sustainer thread is not dead, just sleeping. I hope that with this new approach I will be able to offer a significant improvement, or at least alternative, to available systems and technology. Stay tuned psw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biohazard Posted December 9, 2004 Report Share Posted December 9, 2004 Cool. Sounds good. Just going slightly off topic here but I was interested in the Graph Tech acoustic saddles (not bothered about the MIDI as I dont want to pay out for a midi device lol) but what does the acoustic system sound like? According to a Graph Tech guy it sounds like the sound from an electro acoustic. but I thought i'd get the opinion from a user of the system. Whats the acoustic system like a) on its own and on the blend mode between acoustic and magnetic pickups. Thanks for any feedback. good luck with your development psw. If I have the time, When I finish college for christmas and once I come back from London after seeing MUSE I will try to index the thread for you, if I can lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted December 9, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2004 Thank's bio...have fun I don't have the piezo version but I've heard good things about them so I can't say. One good thing though is that they are modular so, if you wanted midi later you could add it on. Midi would allow you to input data into your computer with the guitar, and write out what you play. You could even play the sounds on your sound card, just for starters! The new generation system won't need them anyway. Also, if I cant get it to work on a standard bridge you may have to replace the whole thing! psw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biohazard Posted December 9, 2004 Report Share Posted December 9, 2004 I would have to replace my tune-O-Matic bridge for a GraphTech one with the piezo saddles. Yeah its cool about the modularness of the system. The new generation systems wont need what? Anyway, keep up the good work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted December 15, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 OK, so it's that time of year again...the sustainer is back on peoples wish list I hope for the new year. Well, I've been tempted back into the fold. I'm developing a more conventional system based on some of the early designs to show that, had I settled originally for the limitations of current systems, I would have had a working model by now. So, I have made a driver and am getting quite good results. I'll need to tweak the circuit a bit, but I'm hopeful that this will be up and running really soon. I could use a little help with wiring it into the guitar though. Specifically, I will need a switch that similaneously: o selects the bridge pickup only, defeating any other/s that has been selected o routes that to the volume and tone control to the output o routes it also to the driver amplifier then onto the driver o switches the power to the driver amplifier on All of this needs to be done without clicks or pops...anybody got some ideas? The third generation drivers do have a lot of potential and I have been able to generate infinite sustain with full pickup selection but may be dependent on my new bridge design and requires the sourcing of some new materials and components which may take a little while. So in the meantime, I just thought I'd get something up and running ASAP to see the New Year out psw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biohazard Posted December 15, 2004 Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 Hey psw, do systems like the sustainer and sustainiac have a circuit board with more controls on them for this? I know the sustainer (fernandes) has a circuit board with four trimmer pots on, not sure what they do. Best thing to do, to get an idea of what you need from a circuit, is to email the two companies pretending you're a college student and ask for basic info which isnt giving their system secrets away, but giving you the info you need. Although you probably know all that information through searching the patents? I wish I was more help but im not, sorry . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted December 16, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 16, 2004 No, that's usefull...obviously to tune the thing to your guitars pickup power, number of frets, frequency respose I guess. The sustainiac has a gain trimmer too. Anyway, I've been playing around a little more today and have found a radically new way of implementing the second generation driver technology and it's looking very promising! I can't say too much but I'll keep you informed on how it's progressing! psw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biohazard Posted December 16, 2004 Report Share Posted December 16, 2004 Cool, let us know how things go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted December 18, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2004 Well progress is being made rapidly on my latest device. It's been tested and works on all six strings, requires little modification and allows the choice of neck bridge or combinations of. The middle pickup will need to be disabled when the sustainer is on. It works a little differently from current systems so it may not have exactly the same features but it will offer more. It even looks cool. More tweaking is needed but I think I've got something now that is an improvement over other systems, easier to install and use, preserves all the pickups and looks like it will be significantly cheaper to produce due to the lack of coil winding and several other expensive components. Technically it is a hex driver so there is likely to be an improvement in polyphonic sustain, even though it is being fed by a mono source. I'm really pleased to see some positive fruit come from this research...let's hope it ripens for the New Year. Which reminds me to wish you all well at PG and especially those with the patience to continue with this long term and ongoing project...you know who you are...and thanks to Brian and to Kevan for their excellent moderation and setting up and maintaining this fabulous site... cheers, and stay safe psw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Sorbera Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 hey psw, when you get it working I will buy one from you. or if your REALLy nice mabye you could send me a schematic for like $10? How much do you think one would cost? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted December 20, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 20, 2004 Thanks Godin SD. Welcome to the sustainer thread! Bear in mind that it's still a little ways off and certainly not yet a commercial proposition! I would anticipate it being a little cheaper to produce and coming from you'd probably get a reasonable exchange rate! However.... There's always the possibility that I'm breaking several patents, it would certainly be contested just for what it does by other manufacturers. You would also need to bear in mind that the thing contains secret technology, unlike that presently used but, would be of value to others! These things are not a simple circuit. They are a system. In particular the driver/s, which would not be easy to reproduce nor would I be willing to divulge it's secrets at the moment, take quite a bit of precision and knowledge of some exotic materials to build. So, no, I couldn't provide DIY details! Progress so far... Hit a few minor snags. Destroyed a few driver elements shaping the prototype unfortunately. Still, this type of thing is to be expected, but is frustrating. It does teach me that I should pre-shape the device before inserting fragile components (which is easy if you knew in advance the size and shape you wanted, which you can't really know until you make one! Catch 22) and that these components should be tested before use in case of faults before being permanently installed into the driver assembly! Fortunately, I have managed to save the prototype so that I don't have to start again. I have a couple of test driver circuits from my previous circuits. One in particular is small enough and ready to go and has demonstrated that it will run effectively from battery power. I'm hopefull that I will be able to run it from rechargable batteries if you want. I gave up using batteries for my experiments as I went through too many, so this is still an area that needs to be explored. There needs to be some kind of driver interface circuit to optimise the drivers for polyphonic driving (ie chords), but it will work without it, some notes will tend to predominate like on present systems! Some work is still required to figure ot just how to best insert the sustainer system into the guitars electronics, and the type of controls that should be made available (there are a few more possibilities with this system). Some thought has already been put into this so they're not major problems really. The next stage is to test the prototype to ensure that it is still working correctly and, by trial and error, connect the 14 wires that eminate from the prototype driver in various ways to get the best results. Then, wire up the already made driver circuitry into the guitar and play about with it, tweaking as I go! I'm anticipating taking all the wiring back out through the back spring cavity so that I can fine tune the electronics but still have a properly playing instrument. So, still a lot of work but closer than I've ever been before! psw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovekraft Posted December 20, 2004 Report Share Posted December 20, 2004 So, what you're saying is that you could tell him, but then you'd have to kill him, right? Glad to hear you're making progress! BTW, have you noticed that this thread has almost 5000 views - at this rate, you'll catch up to the Carriburst thread! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Marossy Posted December 20, 2004 Report Share Posted December 20, 2004 So, what you're saying is that you could tell him, but then you'd have to kill him, right? Hmm... that would make it classified... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Sorbera Posted December 20, 2004 Report Share Posted December 20, 2004 (edited) as soon as your ready to sell me one PM me here. The problem is that i'm building a guitar NOW and it would be easier to rout it now than later... Speaking of that,How would I install it in my guitar? would I need to rout out a hole in the middle of my 2 humbuckers? Is the driver big like say a sinle coil, or is it something thin? will it make my guitar look bad? Edited December 20, 2004 by Godin SD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biohazard Posted December 21, 2004 Report Share Posted December 21, 2004 cool, the progress seems promising psw, its all exciting now that you have a prototype that is begining to work. I think this thursday and friday i will attempt to index the thread for you however, as the thread goes, more indexing will be needed. so how do you want me to go about doing this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted December 21, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2004 Thank's guys, the interest and encouragement has been really appreciated. 5000 hits and hardly a flame in sight, extra-ordinanary! Well it's Christmas time and I was able to convince the family that a digital camera would be a good idea...so expect some pics..the thing can take pics as close as 6cm. OK, so till then, the prototype is (going to be) the size and exact shape of a single coil PUp. It has two aluminium fins separating an area of black and the outside edges are white, I think it looks quite cool! Other colors would not be a problem, I dare say you could paint the thing. The concept is that it's pretty thin, about 7mm on the prototype. You would need to remove the cover from the centre coil, attach this thing to the uncovered pickup and run the wires past the uncovered coil. The pickup will have to be substantially lowered. Now, for guitars without a centre coil, the driver would be equiped with it's own magnets and, on a Les Paul would easily fit. The wires could enter the pickup cavity by filing away a little from the bottom of the pickup ring, and be attached with strong double sided tape or a couple of screws. It's important to limit vibration of the driver to maximise vibration of the strings. As these guitars don't have a centre pickup you wouldn't have to modify the guitars circuitry too much as there would be nothing to disable. I've had so many different ideas of how the thing could be finally realized. One has been that I shrink the circuit, have a thumb wheel at the side, just below the strings and all that would be required is a little bit of modification to the guitars wiring and finding room for the battery. For the strat prototype, I think I've located a cool push button 4pdt switch which lights up with an LED. I'd probably sacrifice a tone control for the sensitivity. I'm not sure that I can duplicate the Harmonic Switch of other systems. This is a product of the placement of the drivers and the way they work. Initial testing though suggests that similar, and other, effects can be achieved by simply changing pickups and manipulating the tone control. There are a few other controls that could be incorporated but you'd end up with a guitar that looks like a spiney anteater with all the switches sticking out of it! For the technically inclined, you will recall that I had been playing around with the idea of rotating magnetic fields. The idea in this design is very similar but it is hard for me to describe...it's a little like a wave I guess. There are other ways to achieve driver but the point of my technology is to limit inductive feedback with the other pickups and to produce a driver without coil winding at all, and to provide the flexibility offered by it's hex design. Remember guys, it's early days yet...there's plenty of hicups yet to occur I'm sure! psw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted December 21, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2004 OK Bio, here's what I was thinking. The thread is incredibly long but there is a lot of interest in it and I think that people will find it of interest for some time to come as it shows the kind of hoops , detirmination and flexability required to achieve a goal. It also shows that a lot can be achieved with ample doses of encouragement, challenges and contributions from all kinds of people can achieve in a fairly short time really. For anyone embarking on such an enterprise, these things are crucial, and I would have given up long ago if not for this! Now the index...I was thinking...if you have Microsoft Word or similar, you could copy each post's reference details to that as a kind of hyperlink. You could name each hyperlink by the name of it's contributor. Once you have that (there's about 400 post's I think!) you could anotate under each link a short description of the topic being discussed (e.g. circuits, links, etc.). So what you'd have is a long list of links that would appear as the names of those who posted them and what the post related to. Send it to me via email and I'll check it out and we'll post it either within this thread or as a separate thread so that it appears as the first post. psw@dodo.com.au The idea is that, if you see something of interest in the index, click on the hyperlink and it would take you straight there in a separate window! This could then be edited and added to later to keep it up to date. I don't think it would be too hard to do, but it would take a little time...Many thanks Bio for taking up the challenge...I think it will be useful! pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Sorbera Posted December 21, 2004 Report Share Posted December 21, 2004 (edited) Forget I posted anything. (boy am I dumb(see below) Edited December 22, 2004 by Godin SD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Marossy Posted December 21, 2004 Report Share Posted December 21, 2004 Is it possiable to put it in my guitar with 2 humbuckers? Why would you need it to have a middle pickup? if you need it, cant I just stick a chepo pickup in the control cavity (doing nothing except whatever it is you need it for) and wire it up like you need it? I don't think so. The pickup has to be directly below the strings like a pickup would be for it to work. And, second, I believe that a regular guitar pickup's windings can't handle the currents involved because the wire is too small - it would fry. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Sorbera Posted December 22, 2004 Report Share Posted December 22, 2004 (edited) wait a minute, I'm a moron, Totally discard that last post of mine. I thought it said it wouldent work with just 2 pickups, but it says it is EASIER with 2 pickups. Boy am I stupid, I should read more before I post ( I am now reading over this 25 page post and let me say, there is a LOT of information here, some useful, some not(like say my posts ) Edited December 22, 2004 by Godin SD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biohazard Posted December 22, 2004 Report Share Posted December 22, 2004 Do you think I should go over all 400 posts and put the person's name etc? If that is the case then that will take a hell of a lot of time and I think I should do it without the hyperlinks and people can just go to the page (i could write the page number next to it) and they can scroll down until they get to that post. If someone has multiple posts on one page i could write the page and post number in the index. Make sense at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted December 22, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 22, 2004 Could be right Bio...let me have a think about it a little... ( I am now reading over this 25 page post and let me say, there is a LOT of information here, some useful, some not(like say my posts ) This is the point I guess as Godin SD has pointed out, there's a lot to ignore. Have you noticed though that it's hard to go directly to a particular page...hmmm...maybe page by page psw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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