pencil Posted May 29, 2008 Report Share Posted May 29, 2008 Hi. So i'm new to the forum, and found it after a recommendation for tutorials on sustainer circuits. The guy said it was extensive, but come on! So anyway, i'm playing an Ibanez Blazer from 82, which has already been messed around with by the previous owner. The pick-up configuration is H-S-H, and along with the 5-way switch it has one switch to put the bridge pick-up into single coil/humbucker, and a second switch which links the neck pick-up to the bridge. (I believe this is called phase?) I want to put a sustainer circuit into the guitar, but do not want to lose any pick-ups. Now this has probably been asked previously but there was no way I could search through all the thread, so i'll just ask straight up and apologise if it has been asked already. Can i install my driver between the neck and middle pick-up, which would mean that i can sustain any of the three pick-ups in the guitar since it does not replace any of them? So it would be Humbucker - Single Coil - Humbucker. ^ Sustainer Driver Would this mean that i could use the 5 way switch to choose any pick-up i want, and then use the seperate controls for the sustainer to sustain the note in any pick-up? I've seen the pictures of the guitar with the driver mounted above the neck pick-up, but presumably that doesn't allow the neck pick-up to be sustained? And finally, exactly what controls are involved? An on/off switch, a phase switch to get harmonics. I know these two, but some seem to have extra pots controlling intensity, or something... Thanks in advance, and i'm sorry that my post was so convoluted! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted May 30, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 30, 2008 Welcome to PG pencil... Thanks in advance, and i'm sorry that my post was so convoluted! Sorry that my answers are more convoluted than the question. I don't expect anyone to read this and a lot of people have asked similar question, so fortunately I have the answers in this case. The Blazer was a nice guitar BTW, my brother had an s/s/s/ version (a little cheap in the pickup department but a nice playing guitar). Unfortunately, no sustainer will do what you would like. No commercial sustainer and even in our attempts, the use of multiple pickups is elusive. Certainly between the neck and middle would not work with the other pickups on. Generally and for all practical purposes a sustainer will only work with the bridge pickup and with sufficient distance from the driver to avoid oscillation feedback. My guitar and personally I promote the adaption of the neck pickup, but a separate driver can be made to various variations. Even so it won't work with either the neck or middle pickups...but then neither will any commercial units or device yet devised. So...controls are generally the on off (usually a 4pdt toggle switch) and a phase switch (dpdt). An optional sensitivity control can be mounted but really an internal set and forget trim pot is most likely better anyway and certainly more practical. The on off switch can get complicated but generally it switches the power on, the neck and middle pickups off and automatically connects the bridge pickup. On turn off, it returns to whatever selection is made by the selector. So, an unusually concise answer to start off with from me, others may wish to contribute. Rather than attempt to read this main thread, do look into the sustainer links of shorter threads at the bottom of this post. There is a tutorial and a pictorial and possibly some sounds there. There are some other links that you will probably find useful, but that can wait. Hope all that helps, this thread is really the question and answer and development page and has been going for years now. There is some interesting stuff on it but it has grown out of control from humble beginnings. Don't be put off and you will see that many people have successfully made this device with our help. There are limitations to what you can do and unfortunately your proposal and wishes are unlikely ever to be able to be met...there are physical limitations no matter how much we try to overcome them. Oh, and there have and are ongoing attempts to make a mid-position driver but as yet, not good enough... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pencil Posted May 30, 2008 Report Share Posted May 30, 2008 Wow, thanks for the quick reply. The way you write makes it sound like we're searching for the cure to some terrible disease! Maybe we are... Ok thanks, i'll read the links scattered around and see what happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojoDodo Posted May 30, 2008 Report Share Posted May 30, 2008 Hey guys, i'm having problems with the f/r amp. i've assembled the circuit on a breadboard seen as it's fast and easy. i tested the circuit with an 8 ohm mid-range speaker i have, with my laptop as input. the output is very very noisy unlike the clip i heard of a recording someone made. i set the gain to basically zero otherwise the output was even worse. if anyone has any ideas of why this could be i'd greatly appreciate it. i would include an image of what i have but it is way too messy and my mobile doesn't have macro mode for good quality pics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojoDodo Posted May 30, 2008 Report Share Posted May 30, 2008 just a note of something i just realised. maybe the noise is due to the clutter i've created or maybe i have a defective breadboard, or maybe just bad connectivity of my components. oh and when i increase the volume i get this squealing sound which gradually becomes a buzzing kind of noise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted May 31, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 31, 2008 Breadboarding can allow more noise because the connections are exposed. Make sure the transistor is biased properly and in the right way also. I think the first problem you may have is the line output of the laptop, not a good source. Plug a guitar into it, that's what it is for...get back if that doesn't work. Testing it with the speaker is a great idea and I wish more would take this advice before trying to drive a driver with a circuit whose performance is unknown. Oh...as well as line output from your sound card, laptops put out all kinds of interferance when close to circuits like these, especially when exposed in this way...move the thing well away and test with guitar...good luck... pete PS...as some will know, while I am answering questions still, I am not presently working on any sustainer projects (got a couple of guitars in the works though!). I am currently working on a completely different project...turning my PT cruiser into a mobile camper, hehehehe....going to be getting in touch with nature, but want to do it cheap and in style. This reversible conversion may suit other vehicles if anyone is interested in such things...or can give me some design and construction tips...back to it...just got a cheap car fridge/cooler and a solar panel, I even have a 15 watt guitar amp that it will recharge, so be rocking the bush one of these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojoDodo Posted May 31, 2008 Report Share Posted May 31, 2008 Hey pete, thanks for the reply. I sort of realised that might be the problem, and i plugged in my guitar just like you said. Unfortunately the problem is still there only slightly better than before. As for the transistor, i have biased it at 4.5V as required but i'll play around with that see if it helps. mojoDodo PS: the POT's i'm using in the circuit i have connected to the board using solid core wire that i've only rapped around the contacts. maybe there's not enough conductivity and maybe that explains the noise. I'll try soldering them and see what that does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted May 31, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 31, 2008 I have never built the F/R but have been assured that the design works. You could apply and input from a line source (say MP3 player) directly to the input of the LM386 stage and speaker to see if that works and so isolate the problem a little more. Even a guitar would make a sound, the reason I have never used this is this design was proposed years after I had been working on the thing and mods in line with the data sheet seem to keep the LM386 mare stable and the fetzer is deigned for "tone" (read distortion characteristics) not something we particularly want though it serves the main purpose of eliminating loading. Personally I think there must be better solutions to this design. I particularly think the biasing of the transistor and the necessary extra trim pot taking up room is a PITA. pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojoDodo Posted May 31, 2008 Report Share Posted May 31, 2008 Well unfortunately the biasing cannot be avoided in any way. The biasing is what allows for the transistor to amplify with no distortion. It could be made much better by using more sophisticated biasing circuits, but this means more transistors hence more space, not to mention the actual designing which is a real pain. One way to make a better amp is to use multiple stages, but again there's more components and a somewhat complicated design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted June 1, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2008 True...it comes down to laziness and plagiarism. ROG designs are largely that, and I was a little disappointed that in all their versions of the very simple LM386 circuits they have deleted things like the cap between pins 1 and 8 for stablization from even the data sheet components. In one variation they even proposed a wire wound pot on the output for gain control! In my earlier designs I did use two transistor designs, a little more complicated and a little large I guess, but no big trim pots. Similarly simple opamp designs has 'infinitely' variable gain possibilities. The transistor specified and some other components seem to have caused people problems and even you with some background seem to have encountered problems with a tiny circuit that should really go together like lego for what it is supposed to be (a preamp/amplifier). However, the F/R was promoted and does work so, why not. Many pages have been devoted to trying to get people to propose a more suitable solution to create a "standard circuit" for this project to no avail. The result is that many forgo even building the fetzer ruby idea and going for amplifier modules seemingly completely unsuited, too powerful and power hungry for no other reason that even building this is too much of a hassle. If I thought that people would take a module for what it was, a amplifier for experimenting with this DIY project without the assumption that I can control the resulting performance (driver and installation variations which are far more influential) I would build my own design and sell it myself, but I wonder if people would pay for such a hand built circuit? In response, I tried to build such a system complete with driver to have more control of the variables. In so doing it becomes a lot less DIY and dangerously close to me DIYing it for you guys which misses the point and costing me as much as some of the commercial systems without the ability or justification to charge as much. Still...I have not given up completely on the idea and if I had a way of addressing the installation problems with a switching system or with some kind of collaboration they had borne fruit, then I would probably make more of an effort in that direction. As it stands, that side of things is on hold personally, but I may well be doing things in that direction when I no doubt pick it up again (suffering a little ill health)... Anyway, carry on...the F/R is a circuit that works and is pretty simple but just as easily could be replaced with only slightly more components...it has worked for many... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idoru Posted June 2, 2008 Report Share Posted June 2, 2008 g'day all, first post here I'm mostly a bass player, but I enjoy mucking about on guitars too. Got into modding last year, and have been properly bit by the bug. I just finished modding a Squier Telecaster (5-way switch, hi-pass TBX mod), so it's time to tackle something I've been neglecting for some time now. I have a 1970's Suzuki Les Paul copy that I picked up dirt cheap at a pawnbroker. All the hardware was trashed, so the poor thing has been lying around totally gutted for about 2 years. Got around to getting some parts recently, then remembered I'd never checked out what the pickups were like when I first got my multimeter. I was surprised when I measured around 3.6 k resistance, so I popped the covers off to find a single coil in each! No wonder it was so noisy... The design is odd - the screws are just for show, it's basically a double bladed core in a U shape, with a magnet slid into the open end of the U. The other half of these bucker impostors is just the U blade epoxied in place. I managed to take the magnet out of the neck coil, invert it & then wired the two coils together to make a bridge humbucker with a resistance of around 7.2k. Last night I got around to re-installing it, wired straight to the jack. To my surprise, it worked and sounded normal - no phasing issues (yet - I'm going to re-wire it with 4 conductors for phase switching). After finding this thread I knew there was only one thing to do to this guitar - damned if I'll buy pickups for it, as they'll cost me more than I paid for the whole guitar So, here's my issues that I'll be exploring - if anybody has any short answers, feel free to stop me doing anything too daft! 1) PSW - you're probably familiar with Jaycar's Champ kit. It's similiar to a Ruby circuit, comes on it's own circuit board that's smaller than a 9V battery, and costs about AUS $6. I've got one lying around so I might as well try it out. There's a resistor that controls output gain, so I'll replace that with wire to get maximum output for the driver. If it works, I'll be well chuffed. 2) I'd love to have this look stock - how much are humbucker covers going to interfere with the driver? Given that guitarists regularly remove the covers from their Tele neck pickups for a brighter tone, I'd hazard a guess that they would mess with the harmonic mode. 3) I've got two of those U blades - I've seen mention of using two 4 ohm coils in series, but don't recall the verdict. I might give that a try. I'm also considering making one coil, but wider like a P90. I'll use CD tray cutouts for the bobbin, maybe jam a bar magnet between the two blades and leave that side up. I have a couple of old hard drives lying around, might have to crack 'em open and plunder their magnetic booty. 4) PSW again - Dick Smith have discontinued the .22 and .20 mm wire, and Jaycar don't sell anything less than .25 either. Any other suggestions for suppliers? Controls will be 500k push/pull for Volume & phase switching, a 500k tone pot (.033 or .047 cap), a 500k hi-pass pot (.0022 cap), and a mini-switch for phase switching the driver. The 4th knob is utterly stuck to a busted pot shaft, and I'm trying to keep all the plastic parts original. If I can ever work it loose, I might replace it with a varitone or Schottky clipper. If I can use the original 3-way pickup switch to turn the sustainer circuit on & off I will, otherwise I'll use it for a killswitch & get another push-pull. I'll take plenty of pictures along the way - I'm REALLY looking forward to this; now I know how Frankenstein must have felt c- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted June 2, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2008 Hi there fellow aussie idoru, welcome to PG and the massive sustainer thread... yes...bloody dick smith is getting out of the whole components thing I suspect...they have tried this before. Because I was using so much of it, I actually bit the bullet and bought in bulk just as they were running out of stock. I'll have a think. I used the Champ kit quite a bit, keep the 10uF cap between pins 1 and 8 and you may find that a 100uF cap works better on the output (you could switch the power cap for the output on this kit to get this effect, that's what I used and I think this is a better way to go. As it is a les paul, you have some room in there so I would suggest looking for the pre-champ kit...I have some mods for this also. Both were designed by silicone chip and dick smith sell them too. Look for the basic kit not some weird educational thing jaycar sells of the same thing (short circuits) which costs twice as much, is bigger and they expect you to buy the book to get the circuit instructions too...lousy $$@^%^ Anyway, email me if you get around to it. As for the pickups...they sound a little weird, or maybe I can't picture them. Obviously the thing is pretty cheap to have these styles in them. I don't think a metal cover will work for you, but you may be able to make something fairly stock looking or at least looks good to fit in the hole. Or...a dual coil driver, but I suspect the cover is a no-no in metal...sorry. If the pickups are as I imagine them, they maybe adaptable to installing a metal blade in them, again a picture will be necessary to advise. I don't think you will get the selector to work for the sustainer function...at least not while this tired...will have to think about that and what you want it to do. If you are only using one pickup in the bridge, then a simple on off switch will work fine or perhaps a rotary control for on off and harmonic modes would be possible. I have to laugh about wanting to keep a guitar like this "stock" but I understand and I don't think you will need to drill any holes in it. I may suggest some things on the wiring, a single pickup guitar may not work so well with phasing...way to thin in general, especially with low powered pickups, but I may have some other suggestions for you...don't want to over kill it, but hey you can do what you want with a guitar like this. Ok...so better run but get some pics for me and I'll see if I can wrangle some wire from somewhere if you are that keen... pete PS...I have experiemnted a little with bass guitar, it should be able to be adapted in principle and I have had sustain out of it, however I don't think there is a lot of musical use for it...mind you I am not much of a bass player so what would I know...p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idoru Posted June 9, 2008 Report Share Posted June 9, 2008 cheers man - I'll zip up to Jaycar this thursday and pick up a PreChamp kit. I started a blog to follow my various projects; the link in my sig will take you there. Today's post shows the pickups - I've not seen anything else like them! I bought a small lot of plastic pickup covers via eBay, so if need be I can pretty up the sustainer a bit Definitely interested in that wire too. cheers, c- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted June 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2008 Nice blog...I am thinking of putting my words to work with blogging, drop me a email if you have any tips. I left your first comment and will be keeping an eye on it. Those pickups are a bit weird but has some interesting possibilities. There is a chance that it could work with the metal covers but I suspect that it may cause disastrous eddy currents. Don't forget that the bobbin needs to be packed up at the bottom to create a "thin" (perhaps 3mm) coil and that you have some PVA wood glue and electricians tape to finish it off. I like the tele, nice work...it is a little like my own tele project and might inspire me to get up and finish the electronics part of the thing...it has to have a tremolo effect fitted and has a kahler trem and huge fender HB in the bridge position. good work and the blog should provide a valuable condensed version of the project, something badly needed. You should also check out this one too storm diy sustainer and while you are there, download this fabulous free software and check out the other great effect projects while you are there... good stuff... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battaglia01 Posted June 14, 2008 Report Share Posted June 14, 2008 Hello Pete! First off, let me say - you are the man. I am as broke a college student as they come, except I'm studying electrical engineering at school (as sort of an unofficial minor). So I can actually have a sustainiac by building one. I'm going to put it in this guitar I just defretted - should be interesting. I don't want to sound lazy, but I started going through this thread and I can't even figure out what ideas have been tossed out and what the current "best way" is... Is there any "updated" version or step-by-step guide to doing this mod? Or, is there any direction you could point me in just to find which methods are currently known to work? I started reading from page 1, got to page 7, and gave up. Furthermore, I don't know if you've seen this, but Moog just came out with this guitar... http://www.moogmusic.com/moogguitar/?secti...roduct_id=21129 Pretty much equipped with a sustainiac * 1000. One thing I like about it a lot is that you can use the harmonic pedal to "pull" harmonics from the guitar. So here's my question: However the circuit is being driven, if you feed magnetically back into the strings the signal coming out of the pickup, that translates to sustain, right? Then, logically, if you feed the signal back in out of phase, that would give a sort of muted feel to the strings as well, si? And furthermore, if you were to pass the signal through an all-pass filter and screw with the phase response, you might be able to make a "harmonic" function like the Moog guitar has, right? I think I saw some clips from another thread in a faraway land where you posted sound clips of a harmonic function that you made for your sustainer mod... Is this how you did it? Trying to understand the basic concepts here. And lastly... If you took the signal from the pickup and fed it back in through a high-pass filter, would that make for a brighter, clearer tone? Perhaps accentuate the harmonics of the guitar? Similarly with a low pass filter, would that give a warmer, Pat Metheny-ish sound to it? These are some directions I see this mod going in, if someone hasn't done them already. Anyway, just some ideas, and if you have any links to any sort of "condensed" version of this thread, I'd appreciate it. I did find this link - http://www.storm-software.co.yu/diy/index....oject=sustainer. Is this "up-to-date" in terms of how this mod is most effectively approached? Thanks, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battaglia01 Posted June 14, 2008 Report Share Posted June 14, 2008 Also, what about using an oscillator to drive the strings? Perhaps a low-frequency high-low duty cycle pulse wave would be a good way to actually generate string vibrations so that chords can be more easily sustained. The frequency would likely have to be lower than hearing range, but effectively it would be simulating a slight "picking" of the string indefinitely. Perhaps by low-passing the oscillator, there would be a minimum of interference between the string vibrations and the oscillations. -Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted June 14, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2008 I don't know if you've seen this, but Moog just came out with this guitar... http://www.moogmusic.com/moogguitar/?secti...roduct_id=21129 Pretty much equipped with a sustainiac * 1000. One thing I like about it a lot is that you can use the harmonic pedal to "pull" harmonics from the guitar. Hello Mike No I haven't seen that, $6,500...hmmm. It doesn't sound like a sustainiac...what is a *1000 anyway. I claims to mute the strings and may work by sampling....hard to tell, if you know more, let me know. Ok...so you have seen the links at the end of this thread. There have been a few pop up from time to time. I am currently not working on this myself but as always, keen others try it so they can add to the "brains trust" of the project. Good of you to persevere to page 7, but really, reading this thread is not a good idea. The more recent stuff maybe, the tutorial type things sure, the storm site is a good one and I know someone is keen to do a blog. I may be doing something myself one day. this guitar I just defretted - should be interesting. Hooray, about time someone tried this! There is an "unfretted forum" BTW, I had a bit there but no takers surprisingly...this would be excellent for such an instrument. I don't want to sound lazy, but I started going through this thread and I can't even figure out what ideas have been tossed out and what the current "best way" is... Is there any "updated" version or step-by-step guide to doing this mod? Unfortunately, not explicitly from me. You will find a tutorial linked below. The original one and the Fetzer/ruby circuit were put forward by G-Mike ages ago, then he disappeared. By default, this is the circuit used. The LM386 is a good power amp for the project and what I use, but I would stick closer to that of the data sheet. If you are keen, and think your up to a bit of circuit design and layout, we could develop something a lot better and easier than the F/R solution incorporating some of what I use and the free DIY layout software...any one else may wish to too! The "pictorial" on making my driver (also linked below) is essential and straight forward. This basic single coil design, built onto a pickup, from a pickup, or as a stand alone driver is still the best way to start in my opinion. If you get bitten by the bug, replace it later with a dual coil or other design of your own! However the circuit is being driven, if you feed magnetically back into the strings the signal coming out of the pickup, that translates to sustain, right? Then, logically, if you feed the signal back in out of phase, that would give a sort of muted feel to the strings as well, si? Niet!~ Sometimes, but in fact, what happens in the reverse phase is you get the harmonic effect. If you think about the way a string vibrates, the main "mode" is the fundumental crossing over at the mid point of vibration (a node). However if you lightly touch the string at this node (the twelfth fret) you get a harmonic...not a muted effect. Similar with the 7th and fifth fret, etc. So, running the thing backwards does mute the fundumental mode of vibration, but still drives the harmonics...the result is the harmonic mode...simple and ingenious....is that understandable? And furthermore, if you were to pass the signal through an all-pass filter and screw with the phase response, you might be able to make a "harmonic" function Yes, and this would be a cool way of doing it...want to try it after you have built one that works. As above, if you "screw around" with the phase response above, you will eventually get to 180 degrees or reverse phase...or the same as a simple phase switch...so same principle... And lastly... If you took the signal from the pickup and fed it back in through a high-pass filter, would that make for a brighter, clearer tone? Perhaps accentuate the harmonics of the guitar? Similarly with a low pass filter, would that give a warmer, Pat Metheny-ish sound to it? These are some directions I see this mod going in, if someone hasn't done them already. Possibly not! Certainly there is a wealth of experimentation that can be done. Also, a sustainer guitar opens up new possibilities for conventional effects use. Tremolos can be used to cut up the sustain to give a sequencer like pulse to a single notes, you could use super long jet like flanging...etc! The intention of the sustainer though is to simply sustain the actual sound of the instrument. You shouldn't "hear" the sound of the sustainer or it's circuitry at all, just the effect of infinite sustain, or the harmonic effect of changing the strings response (dampening the fundamental, etc). However it is a rare device that has not been open to a lot of advanced experimentation, so surprise me...but don't get too carried away until you have the basic thing going, not everything is quite how you may think or be strictly "logical" on face value. Anyway, just some ideas, and if you have any links to any sort of "condensed" version of this thread, I'd appreciate it. I did find this link - LINK. Is this "up-to-date" in terms of how this mod is most effectively approached? Yes, I think Banckia did a great job on this and I am glad I donated the wire. His program DIY Layout Creator comes highly recommended by me for sure. I do have reservations about the circuit and I am a little tired of retelling the mods I suggest mods...so... A thread was recently created by another would be sustainer...LINK - risingforce...from Finland. In this I detail some suggestions like so... For instance, the LM386 Data Sheet LINK, page 5 top right x200 circuit, suggests a 10uF cap between pins 1 and 8 (you can leave the trim pot in by connecting the cap to the trim and the trim to the other pin for adjustable gain) which helps with oscillation, the "zobel network" is the small cap and resistor from pin 5 (your C1 connection) to ground. This is also there to help with stability and in this high gain application, the circuit needs all the help it can get. As for the "Fetzer" J201 part of the circuit, this is not something I am familiar with myself. You may wish to substitute the output cap (your C1) for something smaller, I use a 100uF to get a kind of mixed mode and enhanced harmonics. Basically, I approached the sustainer in a different way to some others and the commercial units. Basically it is a simple amplifier (LM386) and a small preamp to prevent loading and maybe add a little gain. In this way it is simple like an ebow effectively. The unique thing is the thin driver design that, although sometimes debated, I believe gives a sufficiently "fast" response to avoid complicated circuitry and phase compensation. The 0.2mm wire does seem critical too to the success of this. There are problems if you want to run more than a bridge pickup and it won't work anyway with other pickups, so a single pickup guitar is the easiest and best platform for the device. The neck pickup could be modified or replaced with a modified cheap pickup (even a broken one), preferably a single coil type for the easy build, in the same manner as on the storm site you linked. Otherwise, it is the same procedure as my driver on top of a pickup. Ok...so I hope this is of some help, I am not sure what is up with the Moog thing, could be a sampling thing or a lot of hype for a normal or modified sustainer...perhaps I should search the patents again! My advice, make a simple single coil driver version and take it from there, don't get so carried away with fanciful designs and circuits till you actually see the thing working, you are likely to dig a hole for yourself. Similarly don't get sucked into a lot of mojo or more is better. More power is not good, stronger magnets is bad, using a square wave to drive it not been very successful and flawed. Also, a big tip is to accept that this is a DIY thing and a little experimental and limited in it's present form. It will work, and work well...but it is best to build the thing outside of a working guitar and test it by holding the driver above the strings before getting to carried away and wondering later why it doesn't work. Winding the driver is not hard, but it might take a couple of goes...maybe. Test the circuit with a small speaker, if it doesn't work as an amplifier, it is not going to work with a sustainer driver. And...take photos and post often. I am happy to help where I can and one of these days someone will do a great job of this and we will have a bank of material to do a step-by-step guide. Again...on the circuit. I have always disliked the F/R solution and I am sure that people would be glad for a replacement. I have never made this (in fact I can not buy a J201 down here) and my original test circuits have been replaced with a better design that I am keeping for myself, but I would be happy to work with someone to finally kill of the F/R. I think there are falws in it and I know that a lot of people have had trouble. It will work of course and has done, but it was not designed for this application and it has got some weird modes to the data sheet that could make it unstable, with this thing, we want all the help it can get and for the sake of one or two cheap components, I don't see why anyone would have omitted them! The Fetzer thing is also not the best. I don't like the transistor biasing and stuff. The fetzer was designed to emulate the fender preamp stage...we want a clean preamp and an op-amp may be a better solution...but then I am not doing a course in electrical engineering. As I am looking at some financial strain in the near future, I may be offering something low key to give people a big step forward on this project, but really it will always be a little DIY as each guitar and application is a little different. So, enough from me and welcome aboard to PG and the massive sustainer thread, well make 300 pages before you know it! Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted June 14, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2008 Also, what about using an oscillator to drive the strings? Perhaps a low-frequency high-low duty cycle pulse wave would be a good way to actually generate string vibrations so that chords can be more easily sustained. The frequency would likely have to be lower than hearing range, but effectively it would be simulating a slight "picking" of the string indefinitely. Perhaps by low-passing the oscillator, there would be a minimum of interference between the string vibrations and the oscillations. -Mike No.... You will see why...it does not work quite like that! The best way to drive the thing is through resonance, and so the closer to the sound of the actual vibrating string the better...don't think too hard about it to "improve" it till you have one working. It is almost unavoidable that the magnetic driver will be coupled with a magnetic pickup and so any kind of "clock" will be ticking. Also, it will be virtually impossible and quite complex to get the clock to tick to the frequency of the string in phase, etc. Perhaps you read too much of the early part of the thread where a lot of these kinds of ideas were put forward. Try and keep it simple. I like simple, but I do have a tendency to over complicate things myself. The result is a lot of time money and thought wasted in pursuing such ideas that ultimately ended up being a lot easier for the same effect (the Hex driver for instance). Now, it is quite possible that I would never have come up with the "thin coil" idea without a year wasted on the hex thing, but there is no need for you to waste time thinking about such things and to repeat my follies! There is still a lot of scope for experimentation after you have completed the basic version and a lot of material and insights in the thread or we can discuss to take it further. The big mistakes are usually made by people taking the third step before they have done even the first. This idea is a simple one, but the execution of it is tricky enough it would seem. Fortunately, you don't have to reinvent the wheel to build a better mousetrap. Build it modular. Get the thing working, got a better circuit, plug it in in place of the basic one and prove it. A better driver, plug it into the working driver. Low pass filter, sure stick it in a preamp before the circuit. Don't under-estimate it though and make assumptions based on faulty logic...not all is quite as it seems. An interesting fact is that one of the most elemental forces in nature is one of the least understood...Gravity. An apple falls and it is "discovered" and described. It is however incredibly weak and "we" know very little about it at all. Just about everything about it is assumed, yet we all feel it around us everyday. Electromagnetism is another interesting force and this is an interesting way to bend your mind about things, but beware the assumptions as simple as this project may be. good luck...pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diegosfb Posted June 20, 2008 Report Share Posted June 20, 2008 (edited) Hi I'm about to try the sustainer in an old strat. Please can someone fill me up on what the latest desing is and how to hook it up to the bridge pickup (where and what to bypass). Also is there any variation (that works that is) that doesn't require rewinding a pickup to make it a driver ? I 'm a little scared of that (seems like the hardest part). The F/R circuit looks nice, but I would like one with the harmonization mode. Quick question the F/R can be used with a speaker or a driver pickup can't it ? I ve read posts that use a speaker, and things of the sort placed under the pickup. I would appreciate if someone has the schematics. PD: I've read parts of the thread but it will take a life time to read it all ! Thanks great thread. Diego Edited June 20, 2008 by diegosfb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted June 20, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 20, 2008 Welcome Diego This a thread best read backwards! On page 260 (2 pages back) I did some stuff on how the thing works and I think a little before that I answered a very similar question. Also, start by checking out the tutorial and the pictorial of mine on making a driver coil with step by step pics. A lot of people are put off by the idea of winding a coil, but this is not as hard or time consuming as you fear and is not at all like a pickup coil nor does it need machines. However, beware shortcuts either in quality, specification (like, oh I couldn't find 0.2mm wire so I'll just use this stuff!) and know your limitations and enlist help if it is possible. Also, acknowledge that this is DIY, which substantially means you do it yourself. Unlike many DIY things, I spend an extrodinary amount of time helping people with this project, hence the length of the thread...so at least you have that. I do ask people doing this to take pictures and if necessary illustrate their difficulties and successes so that others may be helped with these things. Also, this is not a "fully developed" device, there are still experimental elements and from typically the other side of the world, there are limitations as to how much I can troubleshoot your particular application and problems. I find harder than winding a coil is the installation issues. Typically, though people fear the driver part (which does take some ingenuity) most seem to have trouble getting the very basic circuit right, usually through inexperience. Look for links to the storm software page also, there is a tutorial there and some great free software and schematics of the basic fetzer/ruby. See also in recent pages my suggested mods to this design if you are going down this route. Basically the circuit is a small poweramp (usually LM386 based) and a preamp stage to add a little gain but mainly to avoid loading of the pickups. So, it is effectively a practice amp and the circuit should be tested as such with a speaker to ensure that you have a working circuit. Also important is not to get too far ahead of yourself and try to start with the installation things. First build the device and test completely outside the guitar...make sure you are capable of building the thing to the point that it works holding the driver above the strings over the neck. Do not try and build it in the guitar or worry about the switching this to begin with! The idea that ansil put forward of mounting a speaker under a pickup to create an instant sustainer is flawed. You need to understand what the thing is actually doing. This in no way (despite the description) has the capacity to "drive" the actual strings and so is not a "sustainer" as you might hope. Descriptions of the principle and things like the harmonic mode are often repeated, back a couple of pages (260) I did again explain how a simple phase switch creates the harmonic function. So...a little more reading and studying. The principle is not hard, making the thing can require a bit of lateral thinking and inventiveness however. The easiest way is to cannibalize a pickup to create a driver. Do not attempt this without some commitment and in the expectation that this project is a "cheap" way of obtaining a fernades or sustainiac device, it is a DIY project for people who have a genuine interest and desire to get down and dirty with the workings of such things and explore the technology. This kind of tinkering can reap enormous rewards...but it does take a lot of perserverance...you do need the right stuff! Ok...hope I haven't put you off and I am around a fair bit to lend a hand and don't be afraid of asking questions, reading this whole thread will most likely confuse, but do read the other stuff linked below and get that under your belt first... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diegosfb Posted June 20, 2008 Report Share Posted June 20, 2008 (edited) Welcome Diego This a thread best read backwards! On page 260 (2 pages back) I did some stuff on how the thing works and I think a little before that I answered a very similar question. Also, start by checking out the tutorial and the pictorial of mine on making a driver coil with step by step pics. A lot of people are put off by the idea of winding a coil, but this is not as hard or time consuming as you fear and is not at all like a pickup coil nor does it need machines. However, beware shortcuts either in quality, specification (like, oh I couldn't find 0.2mm wire so I'll just use this stuff!) and know your limitations and enlist help if it is possible. Also, acknowledge that this is DIY, which substantially means you do it yourself. Unlike many DIY things, I spend an extrodinary amount of time helping people with this project, hence the length of the thread...so at least you have that. I do ask people doing this to take pictures and if necessary illustrate their difficulties and successes so that others may be helped with these things. Also, this is not a "fully developed" device, there are still experimental elements and from typically the other side of the world, there are limitations as to how much I can troubleshoot your particular application and problems. I find harder than winding a coil is the installation issues. Typically, though people fear the driver part (which does take some ingenuity) most seem to have trouble getting the very basic circuit right, usually through inexperience. Look for links to the storm software page also, there is a tutorial there and some great free software and schematics of the basic fetzer/ruby. See also in recent pages my suggested mods to this design if you are going down this route. Basically the circuit is a small poweramp (usually LM386 based) and a preamp stage to add a little gain but mainly to avoid loading of the pickups. So, it is effectively a practice amp and the circuit should be tested as such with a speaker to ensure that you have a working circuit. Also important is not to get too far ahead of yourself and try to start with the installation things. First build the device and test completely outside the guitar...make sure you are capable of building the thing to the point that it works holding the driver above the strings over the neck. Do not try and build it in the guitar or worry about the switching this to begin with! The idea that ansil put forward of mounting a speaker under a pickup to create an instant sustainer is flawed. You need to understand what the thing is actually doing. This in no way (despite the description) has the capacity to "drive" the actual strings and so is not a "sustainer" as you might hope. Descriptions of the principle and things like the harmonic mode are often repeated, back a couple of pages (260) I did again explain how a simple phase switch creates the harmonic function. So...a little more reading and studying. The principle is not hard, making the thing can require a bit of lateral thinking and inventiveness however. The easiest way is to cannibalize a pickup to create a driver. Do not attempt this without some commitment and in the expectation that this project is a "cheap" way of obtaining a fernades or sustainiac device, it is a DIY project for people who have a genuine interest and desire to get down and dirty with the workings of such things and explore the technology. This kind of tinkering can reap enormous rewards...but it does take a lot of perserverance...you do need the right stuff! Ok...hope I haven't put you off and I am around a fair bit to lend a hand and don't be afraid of asking questions, reading this whole thread will most likely confuse, but do read the other stuff linked below and get that under your belt first... pete Well I'm still here I was wondering is this the schematic from wich you think I should start or is there any improvement worth considering or this one ? or maybe this one ? I'm not shure I would like to know wich you consider better and why. I don't have much problems building circuits done it before in other areas with more complex things so that is not the problem I would like to know wich works best! Wich signal amplitude Should I feed it to test it (ofcourse within the limits of the LM386) I figure the pups should be delivering a pretty low signal (just a few mV ?¿?¿). Once I 'm done with it I 'll post the pics and the layouts & schematics Thanks for your repply Diego Edited June 20, 2008 by diegosfb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted June 21, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2008 Ok...but let's not get carried away... First, try and avoid copying a post completely into the next one, this only makes the thread longer. If you are refering to it or something, copy and paste, or if it is from somewhere else like these circuits or a past page, sure...but keep an eye on that...that goes for everyone... Once I 'm done with it I 'll post the pics and the layouts & schematics Beware... This thread, and the internet in general, especially in forums post anything and these are not always best or even right. Sometimes they are posted to ascertain if it is right for advice. An example of that was a layout using the DIY Layout Creator on a few pages back, however there were several significant errors. Also, the original F/R circuit has it's own problems that I personally don't feel is the best for this application. This was posted as your first circuit and comes from the "tutorial". Now the fetzer/ruby and this tutorial is an example of a well meaning person doing this project and then going straight into a tutorial on their work. This has become tremendously influential, however it did not accurately reflect the work I was or have been doing and by presenting it in this way became an instruction manual. This was the origin of the fetzer-ruby circuit for instance. I have never made this circuit and if you look back a few pages, you will see some suggestions of significant improvements that could be made by adding back in the components suggested by the Data sheet for the LM386 that were taken out for some reason unknown by the original designers that he stole it off (ROG). Ever since then people have used this circuit and I have been forced to answer questions as if I actually approved of the design! However, it has worked for a lot of people...so it will work I guess under the right conditions. Why have I not corrected this? Because this is DIY for one thing...I receive no profit from this at all remember! The last time I tried posting a design, I too made errors which fortunately were pointed out, but in general...who's looking over my shoulder! Ok...so there is a task, go back and find the bits in the last five pages where I made these suggestions and stuff. Also go here and download this program and suggested layout. DIY Layout Creator However, this is still a layout of the F/R and all my mods apply, or come up with something better, particularly in the preamp section if you can do designing. Eventually I may well do something myself. Now...going back to the "tutorial", the driver did not use the right wire and the magnets were salvaged from a disk drive which is not advisable. The result worked in a fashion, no harmonic function worked and there was some sustain happening...but it was not fully installed nor was it troubleshooted and G-mike soon after disappeared...so was it ever "finished". A little alarmed at this I did add my own version and it did give me a little kick up the ass, so to that extent it was good. It also clearly shows that it can be tested outside the guitar and the F?R while not great, is enough to work and has inspired many for years to use this circuit...so I guess it will not die! ... On your three circuits, the top is the one that is most often used and is the "fetzer-ruby". Basically it is the "ruby" but with the "fetzer" circuit used as the preamp. The preamp prevents loading; in the ruby it is a buffer and the fetzer a low gain preamp. However, I don't like the fetzer, it was designed as a solid state version of a fender preamp stage, so in may have "tone" but distortion and such is not what we are after, this circuit should be quiet and you should not hear it at all, it's signal goes only to the driver. These have been simplified with some oscillation prevention caps removed, these should be put back in as we are running these circuits at high gain x200...you will need to look back to see the suggestions on that and why. The "little gem" circuit is absolutely appalling! No preamp stage at all creating a huge loading effect on the guitar sucking all it's power and tone due to the massive impedance mismatch on the input to the LM386. On the output they have added a huge wire wound pot, or rheostat....very. very bad~! No one should make this even as a practice amp! They did leave in the output Zobel for "stability" which I advise and comes from the data sheet, but then on the ruby and F/R it's taken out!!!! If ever you wanted stability this application is it! ... So, that should give you and others some indication of these circuits, however I have said it before and recently too, so worth a little research. To test the thing, just connect a small 8 ohm speaker and your guitar. This is just an amplifier right! Avoid the temptation to get too technical or theoretical with this thing. Also, until you are satisfied with the end result of the total project will you be happy with any part of it like the circuit. Also, this thing is something that can be developed. Later you may want to make a better driver design and substitute that, or perhaps a better circuit. With a strat, you are going to have to consider the installation very carefully, but a big mistake people have made is to go straight to that before they even know the circuit and driver are up to scratch. It makes it very hard of people get over confident (me too) and try and create a complete system, then can't work out which bit is causing a problem when it comes to fixing them. .... Anyway...there is a whole heap more to consider, but go back and look at my suggestions and see how you go best of luck... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risingforce Posted June 23, 2008 Report Share Posted June 23, 2008 Hello! I still can't get my sustainer work, here it is . I'm out of answers... picture link: http://www.timelessfields.com/test.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted June 23, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2008 Hmmm.... Well....I might need a little more and without looking at the diagram. Where is the driver? The input is on the left...so the pickup/mic on the left near the battery, is this the pickup? If so, good! However, the output is on the right...but you have this connected to a guitar lead? I don't quite understand! The idea is that the driver connects to the output where the guitar lead is. The pickup connects on the left and to the guitar amp via the guitar's controls. Have you tested the circuit with a speaker? Connect a guitar to the input (left) and a speaker to the output (right) instead of where you have the guitar lead...does this work as a practice amp kind of thing? If so, now replace the speaker with the driver and hold it above the strings, connect the guitar into the circuit (left) and to the amp. The signal to the guitar amplifier does not go through the circuit, only the driver. Ok...a little stressed at the moment so perhaps not explaining it to well. If I haven't before, or you haven't read it...I often explain the driver as a speaker coil and instead of a cone, it serves to vibrate the strings. This is the sole purpose of the circuit, to drive the strings, so therefore, you connect the bridge pickup only to the circuit and to the guitar amp and the output only goes to the driver. Other than it doesn't work, you have not given me enough information. Where is the driver, have you tested the amplifier, if the amplifier is working at all you should get at least a tremendous howl! If you are getting nothing at all, perhaps your circuit has failed ti function. Perhaps there si a fault in the layout, I haven't the time to run through it, nor the experience with this circuit, but perhaps someone else who has can lend a hand in this regard. So...either I am to frazzled at the moment to understand what "it doesn't work" means, or I do not have enough to contribute anything without a little more explanation...sorry... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risingforce Posted June 23, 2008 Report Share Posted June 23, 2008 Thanks for reply psw! Sorry about that i don't gived much information, i try to fix this thing next time . You explained this all things very well! I have misunderstanded that i must connect driver to "left input", understanded now that it must be connect it to right output, what stupid i am... I tested right output with speaker and it's works! . When i testing with driver and hold it above strings it works (the strings will vibrate). I have much of humming? when not 9v battery connected/unconnected, tried to ground circuit to guitar but not helped. Especially when i go amp and crank more drive up the voice will more humming in this circuit. When i tested with clean tone i don't have much of humming but when i choose my line6 preset then it is very loud? This must be somekind wiring or ground problem in (this) circuit, i don't understand i have thousand times checked that everything is connected to right, strange. I don't have this kind of ground problems wihtout circuit. Did i have connect Bridge mic and amp jack to left input in circuit?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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