lovekraft Posted June 13, 2005 Report Share Posted June 13, 2005 1. Probably because they didn't put it in the prototype, but figured it would be a good idea to include it in the final circuit for publication to enhance stability and avoid problems, since a large portion of their target audience are not EEs, and would have no idea what to do if their new toy started screaming. FWIW, our buddy Ansil almost never uses a Zobel - he usually just treats the 386 like a large opamp, and apparently gets away with it. Of course, they might just have put the Zobel inside the speaker box! 2. The Zobel might help with any HF oscillation problems, or it could exacerbate them, depending on what's oscillating and at what frequency. What works well for a speaker can't be expected to work well with a driver without at least minor modification. 3. The Fetzer-Ruby is not an actual project - it's simply an answer to a question in ROG's FAQ. I assume they've left tweaking it into a working project "as an exercise for the reader". BTW, for a simpler take on that HiFi Fuzzbox you posted earlier, check out ROG's Tube Reamer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted June 13, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 13, 2005 Well...you know...I'll get to the bottom of my opamp problem eventually...I think I was a little enthusiastic when I found the 358's...probably not ideal for audio applications! Quite right about the simple circuits...Ansil's two component setup did work perfectly well originally but then I was only driving one string and not worrying about loading the pickups...really an ebow in effect, but not really practical. I was playing around with the device again today and really I think my first priority is to take the router to the guitar and make room for the running circuit. The preamp works well, is pretty small really, has a variable gain mod that makes it work through most of it's sensitivity range and is cheap and easy to build...plus fully tested. I think I'll leave the circuitry to others and continue to work out installation and driver design which is really where the action is...after all the thing's working quite well now...why mess with a good thing... anyway...the circuitry is all there now for people to experiment with and improve psw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galaga_Mike Posted June 13, 2005 Report Share Posted June 13, 2005 Hey Guys, I've been out of town for the last week so I just got caught up on all the news on this thread. So PSW, the original opamp preamp I was using was this one: I can't remember where I downloaded it from, so I can't give the proper credit, but it was one of the well-known guitar effects sites. I never got any kind of great operation with this preamp and I found that the Fetzer valve worked MUCH better. As always, I could have had something wrong. In case you can't read the values, the resistors are 220k and 100k, and the caps are 1uF, 15uF, and 22uF. My spare time has been spent making a guitar from junk parts with a built in sustainer. I made the driver from the neck pickup of the guitar (some type of Ibanez) and so it looks like a stock guitar, which I think is really cool. This coil is much taller and thinner than my other drivers. Anyway, I just finished it last night and the sustainer works better than any other prototype on the bass strings (EAD), but I get next to nothing on the other strings. I'll probably try reducing the output cap on the Ruby like you suggested, PSW, but other than that I might just have to go back to my slightly uglier early driver. Even though this one only works well for bass strings, though, it is really nice having a guitar with all the electronics built in so that I can play the guitar without wires hanging all over. No problems fitting everything into the rear cavity, either. That's my update, everyone keep the news coming in. I'm gonna try out my old driver and compare it to the new driver and hopefully have a report from that. Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pekko Posted June 13, 2005 Report Share Posted June 13, 2005 I finished my amp circuit on weekend and managed also to do some testing. My preamp is based on exactly the same opamp circuit that Mike was using, which seems to be also close to buffer preamp opamp circuit psw posted a link to earlier. Amount of preamp gain is certainly not a problem, at least not with hot humbucker I'm using. Anyway, I was not happy enough for performance of the circuit to install it to my guitar. It is very prone to interference and oscillation and the operation seems to be a little unstable. I had trimpots on preamp gain and LM386 gain and a pot as a volume control between preamp and LM386. I experienced best performance with both trimpots turned to minimum gain. My LM386 is version N3, which seems to deliver more juice compared to N1 according to data sheet. My driver is also designed like a normal pickup, ie the coil is quite high. My experiences are exactly the same as Mike's with his new driver (Very good performance on thicker strings, next to nothing on higher). When switched to harmonic mode, the results were almost opposite. Thinner string were working ok, but thick ones were a little bit harder to drive and didn't sound very good. It looks like lower coil driver design and J201 based preamp will be my next step. Pekko Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galaga_Mike Posted June 13, 2005 Report Share Posted June 13, 2005 Pekko, I would definitely try making another driver. As I said, I really don't like the performance of my new setup, and the only thing that changed was the driver. I have two suspects in the poor driver case: 1) The first driver was short and wide, the second was tall and thin. 2) The first driver had rare earth magnets, the second had ceramic. So one of these things is probably the problem. Anyway, I just wanted to say that the driver that I show in my tutorial worked MUCH better than what you or I are seeing right now, so don't be discouraged. I was never 100% sure until this last round of testing that I did, but I'm starting to side with PSW in saying that the driver design is the biggest piece of the puzzle. I always thought that frequency response of the circuit and all that stuff would be paramount, but now I'm thinking it's driver design all the way. Keep it up! Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted June 13, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 13, 2005 OK...for those who came in late...or haven't read the whole thread There was a time around the mid 30's pages where we were looking at surface mounting the whole device and some amazing Graphics were contributed by Onelastgoodbye/Tim and Transient/Emre...as we're getting to some installs and the drivers are thin enough to surface mount, as Mike did in his tutorial...here's a revisit... 2 3 4 5 6 7 dig the name nightdriver ← Anyway...fast forward to the topics of today... All my testing has been done on one or other of two cheap strat copies. These have cheap low powered single coil pickups and a bright sound. They may well account for my need to have quite a bit of preamp gain. So...something that hasn't been discussed for a while is resonant frequency of coils: Now, pickups have different tonal qualities because they are different sizes, shapes and magnetic qualities (Single vs Humbucker vs P90 vs Filtertron vs Lipstick...etc). They also vary according to the power (number of turns/magnetic strength) even though they may be built on the same design. A cheap ceramic humbucker will sound brittle compared to an Alnico loaded high output version. This is often due to a lower number of turns/higher magnetic strength in the "cheaper" version. The reason is that this creates a different resonant peak in the frequency response...the ear generally finds the thicker midrange boost more pleasing.... Likewise...our driver coils will have resonant peaks along the same principles. To get maximum efficiency from the LM386 they suggest 8 ohms and that's what we have been aiming for, but the LM386 will tolerate loads as low as 4 (or even lower) or as high as 16. The graphs actually seem to indicate that, as the battery goes flat, the lower impedance devices will improve in the efficiency stakes... My pickup/driver, as I recall, (due to a production error) has an impedance of about 6 ohms. All strings can be driven but the high e, in particular, needs to have max power, is less responsive than the other strings and the driver needs to be really close...but it will sustain it. This is in large part to the thinner string having a higher tension and less mass and magnetic material for the driver to work on. Now, in some of my Hex designs, I had 6 individual drivers of a bit over 1 ohm each. These individually had a vastly different frequency response...the idea being that the strength of each driver could be addjusted in the design to suit the individual strings characteristics. While fine in principle, it's not easy to do in practice and the results for the effort required make our current siple drivers more appealing...especially as a DIY project! All in All....yes I do think the driver's are the key. However...let's not forget the source...the pickups. Now on these humbuckers...what sounds good to our ears may not be what sounds good to our drivers. The humbuckers characteristic warm sound and midrange peak at least in part accounts for the bass heavy response. They are more powerful, bigger and sensitive so may "pickup" the drivers electromagnetic signal more easily, resulting in oscillation (you may want to try the Zobel Network addition for this reason). Now one suggestion is to perhaps use only one coil of the humbucker...the one furthest from the driver...as the source for the sustainer. Split humbuckers have half the coil of the full humbucker, a very different frequency response and lower output (which we can boost using the preamp) which may improve things. The two coils of the humbucker are set slightly apart so that some frequencies are cancelled in the higher frequencies...by spliting them you get a lower powered single coil with a flatter frequency response. Of course you can still wire the full output of the humbucker to your amp, but what the driver "hears" may be a better signal. Another option may be to run the humbucker coils in parrallel to the driver circuitry...yielding yet another frequency response. Another design change is bobbin material. Mike used CD case plastic (how did you find cutting it by the way?) while I used paper thin plastic cut from folder covers. That means my actual coil in at least a mm closer to the strings...it may not seem much but when the driver is only a mm from the strings this doubles the distance of the coil from them...just a thought. Ideas on the circuitry...to revisit some really old ideas from this thread...is to only send forward going half waves to the driver. This can be experimented with by placing a diode across the output so that only positive (or neg) parts of the signal go to the driver (although there are other ways to do it). This came from the suggestion way back when that I try to "ping" the strings. This was my answer to the idea. What the driver is doing is (say) pushing the string away then letting it go (ping) then repeating rather than, as we are doing with a conventional amp, pushing and pulling the string. Why would this be of benifit? Well, my theory was/is that perhaps these half waves would give the coil/magnetism time to relax before the next pulse...particularly in higher frequencies. The effect is to halve the number of pulses improving high frequency respose and temporing the lower string sensitivity...or at least that's one perspective. Another would be that the constant forward pulsing would tend to magnetise the core in one direction resulting in less effectiveness and the change in magnetism would also be halved as it would never be going negative...that's why we experiment though. There are hundreds of variables to play with...for now I think the best thing is to improve upon our relatively crude driver designs. In particular to seek out different core materials. Thin metal sheet,that can be cut with a good pair of scissors, can be found at hardware stores in the form of corner strips and such for plaster board. It's galvanized but quite magnetic. If you were to cut strips and glue them together so as they are insulated from one another you'd have a simulation of the kind of laminated cores found in transformers. Something I tried to do was to mold iron powder and epoxy into the shape of cores. Iron is better than common steel and in powdered form far more effective...and the molding process means you can make it to shape. Some of my secret hex designs were actually coated completely in the stuff to very good effect...especially in containing EMI...(there you go doubters who emailed me suggesting that I was a fraud with nothing new to offer, but still wanted to know everything...try that!). I also did quite a bit of work with ferrite but it's impossible to cut...it did prove to have excellent characteristics and is used a lot in modern toroid transformer cores (unfortunately for us, completely the wrong shape). I think the slim coil design (height/depth) is really quite good (and original to this threads attempts). With thin bobbins and careful winding you can make something a lot less wide than a single coil (so it need not be "wide" like Mikes turned out) and still be thin enough to surface mount if that was desirable, or to mount in a pickup combination as I did a few pages back. Perhaps a core that's wider/narrower under the higher strings, that is not symetrical, or a coil of varying depth could yield positive results. You may want to check out the hoover patent (sustainiac) with their use of magnetics "shunts" or auxillary fins under the high e and b strings. If you want to see how far you can go with the circuitry complexity...you can see pretty much the whole circuit on one of the patents...AGC (copression), frequency dependant phase shifting, all kinds of complex circuit design. But for all that...they still have to mod the driver design indicating they still have the same problems we encounter with our simple circuits. The driver designs have been the most "visible" changes to commercial systems too. Fernandes used to use two coils and effectively three fins on their side. My later hex designs drove each string from side to side (but they were very suseptable to string alignment as a result). A similar effect is being incorporated into the current sustainiac drivers with two coils of different polarities...primarily in an attempt (like a humbucker) to cancel out electromagnetic radiation possibly allowing more power to be used (they use high efficiency D class amps I believe). Anyway...as LK perceptively pointed out way back when...concentrate on the drivers...for all the circuitry magic the comercial guys have (remember it's their business to do this research) they still resort back to driver design to make gains really...or so it seems. Fortunately for us, that's probably the easiest and cheapest element to muck about with...there's plenty of wire on a small spool to make a whole host of prototypes. Remember, the more people making variations, the more gains we all make in the development. Keep the faith guys psw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovekraft Posted June 14, 2005 Report Share Posted June 14, 2005 Not for nothin', but the June issue of Nuts & Volts has a computer controlled coil winder/counter project in it, if one of you driver-winding maniacs wants to go totally automated (might be applicable to pickup winding as well) - no stores in my area carry it (of course), so if one of you checks it out, let me know if it's worth hunting down somewhere outside this literacy-free zone I live in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted June 14, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2005 Thanks for the tip LK...it does look like it's worth a look from the enlarged photo of the thing...they have a link to some Visual Basic software to run it so it must be computer controlled...it's also set up for cylindrical choke type coils so will need a little modification...still by using stepper motors and computer control it's count would be really accurate. I've got a really basic stepper motor controller kit (et to be made)as an option for my winder (see a picture in the lego winder thread). You can salvage steppers and all kinds of gears and toothed belts, etc from printers. This thing is really simple with a forward and reverse buttons...the idea was to operate boom gates on model railways I think...anyway it seemed like just the ticket for the Auto-taverse function...linked to a computer though this might work even better...not likely to see this mag anywhere down here either I'm afraid... On the sustainer front...I've just finished routing a great big cavity in the back of my test strat under and behind the jack socket (from the back) there's enough room in there for all sorts of future mayhem... First is to install the sustainer...then well look into a simple DIY Piezio and preamp too...It will be nice to have the guitar back without wires hanging off of it everywhere! To finish my pickup/driver combination the idea is to carve the top out of a pickup cover and fill it with the pickup in place with epoxy...well unless someone has any better ideas...then it should look very special and not at all DIY (well maybe a little) pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted June 16, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2005 Got a little time yesterday to take up the soldering iron again...trying out some more preamp ideas...not tested yet but heres the idea, in prototype stage... The poweramp with all the bells and whistles that I've been using so far is on the left my new preamp based on the TL071 on the right. The preamp section also has LED connections and some power smoothing and protection diode. The poweramp (on the right duplicates some of this and has more caps and such that may eventually prove unessecary or could be down-sized. In short it could be made smaller, eventually. The pot is the sensitivity control and both circuits are designed to hang down below it. There are also two trim pots (black with yellow centres)...one controls the poweramp gain and the other the preamp gain. The preamp gain is adjusted from below...this picture shows the two sandwhiched together...the pot is 16mm. I did a sketch of the number of connections required to hook this thing up for an actual full install...You will require up to 12 individual wire connections 2x pickup source signal 2x pickup selection control these I suggest the above should be a single 4 core shielded cable to protect the signals 2x on/off control 2x LED optional indicator light 2x harmonic switch then to output 2x battery connection As for my newly routed out test strat...I'll probably use my original tried and true circuit. I was going to build the fetzer/ruby to test it out but I wasn't able to get the components just at the moment...plus I'm stubborn and the opamps failing in the past still bugs me. BTW...this circuitry also has other applications outside of the sustainer...or even in addition to a sustainer install with a little extra switching....Switch the driver for a small speaker and you've got an onboard practice ampl...Switch the preamp to the output and you've got a boost circuit with gain control...build just the preamp section and you've got an onboard pickup to activate low powered pickups or to run DIY piezo's etc. So the development of good circuitry goes beyond just the sustainer...we'll be seeing some more of that when the test strat has it's sustainer installed, a DIY piezo system will shortly follow and will also work with the sustainer to create pseudo acoustic / sustainer. From that I can test the use of the piezo signal as a source signal for the sustainer circuitry. This will open the door (if successful) to simpler connection and even sustaining electro-acoustics with the driver mounted on the soundboard on sound hole...or if we dare...returning to the hex driver idea and using the six saddle transducers of a Ghost or Bags system as the source for a true Hex driver promising true polyphonic sound and much higher definition of response than we cou.d achieve with our basic single coil drivers... Dreaming...we'll see...one step at a time...for now...sustain on and keep those driver ideas happening psw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted June 16, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2005 Thought I might as well add this since I had the camera out.... The Test Strat Ive placed a couple of knobs in place...the top one will be sustainer sensitivity...the lower will be piezo volume... This photo shows the large route in the back of the guitar so future experimentation can go on in the back. You can see various wires coming the trem cavity from experiments (direct pickup feeds) and there are some from the neck pocket which are connected to a piezio in there...yes it does work!!! Anyway...this monster cavity is not required for a standard install...as you can see from the small pot mounted circuit it's not really large...got to find room for a battery though. A strat would be an easy install..you could replace one of the tones with the sustainer control, a couple of switches and maybe remove a spring and install the battery in the trem cavity.... so now you're up to date with what I'm up to...psw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted June 18, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 18, 2005 I occasionally get PM's from new members like this fellow...welcome to the Forum BDRockStar...I've PM'ed a reply... hey, i came here from psw's page on sustainers, which i found while looking for some more info on ansil's sustainer mod. anyways, although i do know how to solder, i don't have much of a background in electronics at all. i still don't know what's going on, but i do want to build one of these things and stick it in my guitar, hopefully. i understand the signal flow chart, and i think i understand how to make the driver - however, i certainly don't understand the wiring diagram for the amplifier also, i have no idea where i'd look to find any of the supplies can anybody help me out? ← This is from Mike's Tutorial Page but I thought some of you sustainerites might like to contribute comment.... There really isn't anyway around it...to do anything like this you're going to have to get into soldering....unless you know some soldering genius who will do it for you... It's for this reason I'd really like to get a simple and adaptable circuit down...but as I showed in the post before last, there could be up to 12 external connections and some wiring modifications required....and I suspect a lot, if not most, guitars are going to require some adaption to find room for the battery, let alone the driver...! What I'm aiming to do, but it's a ways off just now, is to address these inquiries by perhaps putting together a simple kit or premade amp with the switches, pot and connections already wired up so it's simply a matter of connecting a driver, the pickup and the selection bypass control wires into the guitar. Even though I run my system pretty much flat out and control it with the sensitivity control that's clearly not going to suit everyone...the circuit I'm trying to develop will has pre and post gain controls. Even with active EMG's and the like, the preamp set to a buffer will be advantageous...IMO Anyway...as I say I'd like to invite comment. Also, a few have come over from exploring Ansil's Sustainer Mod Tutorial...although it's been commented on before, you may wish to raise issues and differences to the type of sustainers most are working on in connection with this thread... To all those frequent guests and onlookers who have questions...don't be afraid to join up and/or put questions up on this thread...it may seem intimidating but in general the thread has been going this long (800+ contributions) and has been this popular (16,000+ visits) because people have spent the time to try and be helpful. There is no way that people can do the work for you...at least at present...as no one can "do it yourself" like you can "do it yourself" So let's here from you psw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDRockStar Posted June 18, 2005 Report Share Posted June 18, 2005 (edited) yep, that was me, and i was just wondering if i could get a step-by-step on a successful sustainer mod? i've only read the first dozen or so pages, and it looks like everything is still largely experimental, but i think a couple of you were on the verge of something big - anything that works yet? i'll volunteer to try out stuff to, as long as it's not OVERLY complicated or involves exotic materials - and i always take pics when i'm working on my guitar but yea, i love the idea, but i really can't make myself read all 55 pages... EDIT: lol ok, i'll keep reading... well, i figure i don't have much to lose trying ansil's sustainer mod out, because i have a built-in distortion that runs off a 9 volt in my guitar already - it doesn't seem like it'd take too much effort to make it part of ansil's sustainer mod. i just dunno where to start. Edited June 18, 2005 by BDRockStar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkey69962000 Posted June 18, 2005 Report Share Posted June 18, 2005 yep, that was me, and i was just wondering if i could get a step-by-step on a successful sustainer mod? Successful for the sustainer right now i think is an opinion. If you take your guitar and hold a note, turn the amp up loud and hold the guitar near the speaker, you get a successful sustained note. But if successful is to hold the same octive and volume, than you will have to wait for the home made sustainer for a little while. Fernado... i think thats the name; has a sustainer kit along with some of their guitars have it which does hold same volume and octive. Also there is sustanic that does the same thing. There are company made "successful" sustainers, but home made is what PSW is trying to do. Well, Oh man, i just got back from oregon and i have like 20 more pages to read since i left. Oh great. Still with ya PSW. the light on the swith is awsome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDRockStar Posted June 18, 2005 Report Share Posted June 18, 2005 the fernandes sustainer system? i know about them, but they're like $300... alright, i'll just sit and try to stay current w/ this then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted June 18, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 18, 2005 (edited) Hi Monkey Man...you got a bit of catching up to do....basically the DIY sustainer is a reality if you're prepared to put in the work...Galaga Mike has put a tutorial based on where we're at in the Tutorial Section... Here's another post from there: Thx Mike for posting that - and thanks to the people that helped with the creation of this tutorial Im hopefully going to try this maybe not on my jimmy page try hard guitar but on a telecaster that i hope to make out of silky oak ... ← Welcome to the Sustainer Thread ZoSo S! I seemed to have some success with the pre-pwr amp thing I was building but am unable to test it with the driver as the Test Strat is Temporarily out of action... I've taken what I learn't from it to make a far more stripped down version to see how many components can be stripped from it and still perform it's function...it's not hi-fi after all... The new version is more logically layed out and is very small but still able to be made on one perfboard with care. I've put the two trim pots next to eachother so they can be easily be adjusted when mounted in the guitar. The main pot and switches are attached by short flying leads so that the board can be manipulated into the guitar and it's easier to mount the controls. The two switches and LED will also be pre-fitted and the leads to the driver and pickups etc also. The idea...to get everything connected up to the board and then to install you connect the leads to the appropriate places in the guitar's circuitry... Then the driver's up to you!!! psw Oh Yeah...and I wouldn't worry about the early and experimental work in this thread BDRockStar...go back to about page fifty or so and read forward and you'll be up to date... Edited June 18, 2005 by psw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDRockStar Posted June 18, 2005 Report Share Posted June 18, 2005 Alright, I think I have a decent (if extremely rough) grasp of what's going on here now. I'm thinking about jumping aboard the wagon and trying out Galaga Mike's Sustainer Tutorial. Before I start, I've got a couple of questions: #1 - (1a) My guitar (Danelectro Danoblaster Hearsay) has an onboard distortion that I think has the same circuitry as the Danelectro Grilled Cheese Distortion pedal. I've been trying to find a wiring diagram (or whatever you call them) but I haven't had any luck. Anyways, I was wondering if I could use that for the preamp, or if it's something else entirely? (1b) If I do end up building the Fetzer Valve/Ruby thing, I could find all the parts I need at RadioShack, right? #2 - Coming back to the battery life thing. How long does that sustainer last before you have to change the battery again? #3 - Where do you find a bar of steel? It doesn't seem like a thing that would be on any store shelves, or just lying around...and I don't think I'd be able to cut a piece of steel myself. Or could I? Would I just use a hacksaw? #4 - My guitar is S/S/S - I play with the bridge and neck pups, but never with the middle pup. Can I replace the middle pup w/ the driver instead of the neck pup? Hmmm...I think that's it for now. Oh, but I'm sure to have more questions later. Well, not sure, but more than likely. Alright, thanks guys! This is pretty awesome stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted June 18, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 18, 2005 The answer is Yes, No, Yes, Yes, No,...only kidding... #1...The distortion may verywell serve as an adequate preamp but you still need the LM386 power amp section to drive the driver....It may be better just to build the complete preamp/poweramp fetzer/ruby or similar (I have various circuit designs and some new simpler ones cooking at the moment)... #2...I'm getting a fairly reasonable life from the battery but with over use it might only last a day or two...that's why I've worked my designs around rechargable batteries...easy access to the battery is something to consider...you dont want to have to remove all the strings to get the scratchplate off just to replace a battery! #3...Hardware Store, rubbish dump...basically it's just a piece of soft metal. You might need to buy a couple of metres/yards for a couple of bucks... A hacksaw will cut it and a file to round the edges...Look around you may find what you need in the garage. A row of screws/bolts would also work, thin stuff glued together might even work better than a solid bar (laminated core idea)...or do as Tim/onelastgoodbye did and simply wrap it around the magnet itself...makes it slimmer too! #4...Maybe...it's subject to debate and experimentation.... One thing is that typically, once you've built the circuit and driver you can test it by holding the driver above the strings without having to install it...that way you can test how it will work in the mid position and if it will interfere with the other pickups... Unfortunately, I have to say the results aren't too good. Masive EMI interferes with the pickups especially when in combination creating all manner of squeels and such...at least with my test strat, which is very similar to your situation...The other thing is that even if/when you do get it to work (it is possible within restrictions) the harmonic mode seems to be very unpredictable. Part of the problem is that the closer you move towards the bridge the harder it is (in general) to push the strings about, so the more power will be required...couple this with the fact that you are lso moving closer to the source pickup (bridge PUp) and you're asking for trouble really!!! One thing to consider is that you may be able to make this thing pretty small with a bit of practice...Mine seem to be the smallest so far so go back a few pages to check this out...the amount of winding wire on even a small spool is enough to make quite a few to test out if the first one's not quite up to standard/size. What I'm getting at is that it may be possible to build a driver that simply sits between the neck pickup and the neck (for instance) pretty much on the surface of the guitar (especially if the magnet/s are within the coil) thereby losing nothing. In General...I think you'll have a similar problem to my strat in that it's lower powered pickups will require more preamp gain than someone with a hot humbucker equiped guitar for instance...I'm yet to test the fetzer/ruby idea myself so I haven't compared the circuitry I'm using to this yet. Meanwhile I'm still working on a simplified DIY circuitry that's more adaptable to any guitar... Finally...here's something LK tipped me off to... DIY Stompbox's Very Basic Sustainer Experiment... Funny how things go around...when I posted on there about this work...I got flamed and called a fraud...anyway, I've invited people to come join us here if they're interested so I hope to see some new blood infused into it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDRockStar Posted June 18, 2005 Report Share Posted June 18, 2005 Hmm... #1 - well, I guess I'll just build the fetzer/ruby thingamajig then. RadioShack, eh? #2 - Fortunately, Danelectro has conveniently provided me with a convenient battery uhh..."hole" i guess - it was originally for the built-in distortion. you get to it through the back of the guitar, it's great #3 - laminated core? how does that idea work? and OH...i've COMPLETELY forgotten about the magnet - ummm...where does that go? and is it a literal magnet or one of those electomagnets? can i get a more in-depth explanation of the magnets? #4 - i'll try various positions and i was just thinking - a recurring problem seems to be with the B and E strings...what if we had...like, maybe two different drivers? kinda of like a split p bass pup - a stronger driver for the two top strings and the same driver that works for the lower strings? or is that not the problem at all? as for the low output problem, i have SD hotrails in the bridge position, which i'm pretty sure is a fairly high output pickup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted June 18, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 18, 2005 Here's a flash back to some of Tim's/onelastgoodbye's work...page 49 I believe... Some pics... prototypes 1,2 and 3 close up of 2nd one notice the wide laminated core Little Gem PTP wired! The first prototype has a narrow blade and didn't perform too wel, the second has a wide laminated iron blade, 4 ohm coil, and worked better than expected but is pretty big. The third one (4 ohms) is a bit less powerful than the 2nd, but it's only 5 mm high, because I've wound the coil directly round the ceramic magnet(It's a lot less work too,so I'll stick with this one). I used some scrap plastic for the bobbins, and potted the coil with PVA glue while winding. I can drive all 6 strings in fundamental mode and more or less in harmonic mode; save some dead frets, but that's probably my shitty fretjob. The high e needs to be really close though. Low e (which is actually d) and a act a bit weird, as if they can't decide between fundamental and harmonic mode. i'm gonna build one using 0.2 mm wire and beef it up to 8 ohms, then I'm gonna start fiddling with the amp circuit. It really needs more clean volume, so the ruby circuit will most likely perform better. The ebow circuit looks interesting too. So peeps, start winding and experimenting, it's pretty easy really (to get started, but then it doesn't stop ) Tim ← Ok...so I hope this helps...the magnets are stuck to the bottom of the iron core (middle of the coil)...in prototype 3 above the magnet is inside as he explained... #1 - well, I guess I'll just build the fetzer/ruby thingamajig then. RadioShack, eh? Yep...or similar... #2...great...just right, if you don't use the distortion too much then the one battery should be ok...be prepared to change it often as the sustainer is adictive...! #3 - laminated core? how does that idea work? and OH...i've COMPLETELY forgotten about the magnet - ummm...where does that go? and is it a literal magnet or one of those electomagnets? can i get a more in-depth explanation of the magnets? It's just a magnet...any type but with north on one side and south on the other...the coil makes an electromagnet to move the string. The magnet can double as the core if you can find something suitable...Mike got some Rare Earth Magnets from a computer drive in that tutorial but they are probably not ideal... A laminated core is just thin metal layered together to make the core the right size...galvanized iron would work for instance (not high tech I know), I've tried it, they sell strips and corners of thin stuff to make corners in plasterboard (check the hardware) you might even find it easier to work with... and i was just thinking - a recurring problem seems to be with the B and E strings...what if we had...like, maybe two different drivers? kinda of like a split p bass pup - a stronger driver for the two top strings and the same driver that works for the lower strings? or is that not the problem at all? ← Hmmm...so you've been at my secret activities that I haven't discussed yet.... Actually, yes it is a good idea...six drivers might even be better...Uh-oh, that would be a Hex driver!!!! It's going down that road that made this thread so long ...There may be more to it and it does complicate things a little... What I've been looking into is two coils as you say (BTW Sustainiac use two for different reasons...I think I mentioned this recently...) but also two amps!!! It might help but without the complementary divided pickup to drive it it may not be that much better... as for the low output problem, i have SD hotrails in the bridge position, which i'm pretty sure is a fairly high output pickup Well, then you've got plenty of output...but you'll still need a preamp with it otherwise the poweramp will soak up all your tone!!!! In closing...here's a pic of two of my drivers: The one on the left is made from a recycled cheapo pickup and has a big grey ceramic magnet on the bottom...the one on the right shows a thinner one with a 3mm solid ordinary steel core, paper/plastic bobbins and a row of Rare Earth Magnets (2mm thick) stuck to the bottom of it...Now, imagine how small it would be if those magnets were inside and replacing the core... I hav'nt done that yet as I went straight on to making my pickup/driver combination which is basically a copy of this driver sharing the core and magnet with the pickup...you'll have to go back a bit but there are complete pictures of how I made it.... Anyway...king of the long posts signing out...psw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDRockStar Posted June 19, 2005 Report Share Posted June 19, 2005 actually, i just had a thought - i still have the old pickup that i pulled out and replaced with the hotrail - could that be my driver right there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkey69962000 Posted June 19, 2005 Report Share Posted June 19, 2005 Now, why would only an 8ohm pickup work. I mean if i took apart one of my single coils, milled out the middle and stuck a seel bar with a magnet bar under it, and put it back in; why would it not work? Or could it work? I would need a stronger amp wouldnt i? Im trying to learn why this works. I know the basics, but why so small as 8 ohms and why is the Fetzer valve better than the ruby or little gem? Also, how do you know when you wound 8 ohms and did not go too far/little? Sorry, just a little curious beucase im almost ready to put in electronics into my LP i am building and maybe want to add the sustainer in. ← There. Lol. I want to know. Maybe i missed it on the earlier pages, but even if i did its still good for people like BDRockStar to know since i dont think he plan on reading the entire thing through any time soon. No offence BDRockStar. but i waited almost a year to read the entire thing through and i aint even done yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted June 19, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 19, 2005 Sorry Monkey...computer craxhed and I lost my smart-arse reply just as I pushed reply must be bad Kharma.... And as you see...BDRockStar did ask the same question.... actually, i just had a thought - i still have the old pickup that i pulled out and replaced with the hotrail - could that be my driver right there? So...although I'm sure we explained this before... A pickup is not a driver...a driver is like a pickup...but pickup is NOT a driver... ...a pickup is designed to detect tiny distrubances in it's magnetic field ...a driver is designed to create huge disturbance in it's magnetic field ...a pickup has 1000's of ohms of very fine wire thats very sensitive tiny currents ...a driver has 4-8 ohms of (relatively) thick wire carrying high currents ...amplifiers are designed to drive speakers that are generally 4-8 ohms ...the fine pickup wires can't physically carry the drivers signal without burning up! So...no...you cant use a pickup as a driver but it could be made into a driver out of a pickup if you strip the coil off and rewind with fewer turns of thicker wire.... But that will destroy the pickup....you may be able to use the magnet and make your own bobbin. Me and the guys who've made these seem all to agree that a thin (shallow) coil seems to work better...not the shape of a typical pickup (similar but not quite)... So...consider making your own and check out some of the pics of different ones posted here.... Now The Fetzer/Ruby.... The Ruby is just a much more sensible approach to using the LM386 chip than the Little Gem ...pretty much just as the maker suggests...and pretty much what I'm using. The Fetzer alteration...very similar to the Ruby...gives the Preamp part of the circuit more gain or power...I'm using a different preamp but looking at even more ideas at the moment....I think I've got more and a more filtered type of gain... I would not advise anyone to try and read the whole thing....go back a few pages...skim through it...ask questions.... That's why I've brought a few posts forward lately...there are a lot of good stuff in there...but a lot of dead ends... So, I hope that's answered a few questions...thick wire, low impedance coils for a driver and high gain preamp and poweramp driving a lot of power to shake those strings.... psw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted June 19, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 19, 2005 (edited) For people a bit daunted by the electronics stuff...something like this or other kits...MAY...work or be able to be adapted... LM386 Kit Amp with Preamp... This one happens to be from down here ...look about... Here's another interesting link: LM386 amps and links Edited June 19, 2005 by psw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkey69962000 Posted June 19, 2005 Report Share Posted June 19, 2005 so, what if you created an amp to give 1000ohms to work with a regular pickup. You said it would burn it up. Isthat becuase the power would melt the coating? What about testing for how many ohms my driver would have? also, what would happen if you reversed the driver, as in a coil inside a magnet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted June 19, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 19, 2005 (edited) Still tenatious aren't you Monkey.... Firstly it's not just a thousand ohms it's thousands of ohms in a pickup... Think of it like a hose pipe...your trying to force a lot of current through a really thin pipe and it causes resistance...the thinner the pipe, the more resistance (ohms)...now to force sufficient power to get through a thin pipe there will be so much force that the pipe will threaten to explode....Ok so a thicker pipe will withstand more current... With electronics this current is power not fluid and the reaction to resistance is manifested as heat. If you go back to the very first post in this thread I describe using a hi-fi amp to drive a crude coil. The thing literally tryed to burn the strings off...a pickup would have melted... This is exactly the way an electric heater or a lightbulb works. Look at the fine wire and the amount of power going through it...it burns so hot it can light a room!!! Micheal Brooks, perhaps the Father of this type of sustainer, with his Infinite Guitar, does apparently use a pickup (though it's a secret and there is some debate about it). But...it's also mains powered and has a huge transformer mounted to the front of the guitar I believe... So perhaps you could do as you suggest...but why would you want to...winding the coil is the easiest part...you dont need machines or anything...much easier than the super fine wires in pickups and easy to come by as it is used to make crossover coils for hi-fi speaker systems... So...does that clear that up guys...there are other factors (to do with efficiency) but that's enough to put me off psw oops...I forgot your other question...it would probably serve to contain the electromagnetism of the coil which would dampen its effect upon the strings...plus where would you get such a magnet?? Edited June 19, 2005 by psw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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