Donut Man Posted February 2, 2007 Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 (edited) Ahhh...but it is simple and we know it works. Tim uses EMG's and I would include the fetzer part of the circuit...it's only a few extra components. You wont be able to build a driver on top of an EMG in the neck though. If this is the only pickup and you want to put a driver in the neck slot, it should work out fine. It would be a first to have a seven string sustainer on here and I know some would be interested. There should not be a problem driving seven strings as the low B has a lot of mass in it. Be aware though, that light strings (lower than .10) will be a problem driveing the high strings... pete Ive not got an EMG in the neck position, I've got the stock pickup, and it doesnt work too well with the EMG, so thats why I want to put a driver there since I have no idea what the power section of the fetzer/ruby is, can someone tell me? or mark it out on the schematic cheers Edited February 2, 2007 by Donut Man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onelastgoodbye Posted February 2, 2007 Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 complete driver the (lousy) pics of my rail driver, as promised. The lighting makes it look as if there are loose windings, but actually looks very clean in reality. this should give you a better idea look on the far right @Donut Man I've been using the little gem circuit with my emg and it sustains quite happily...the little gem is basically of the ruby without a preamp section; emg's have an internal preamp section, so 'technically' you don't need that, just a poweramp. @PSW good to have you back, I'll shoot you a mail one of these days. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spazzyone Posted February 3, 2007 Report Share Posted February 3, 2007 (edited) PA amp? I'm sure you can't mean what I know as a PA amp, so what does it mean in this context? Yes...a PA amp!!!! Shawn/spazzy's approach is radically different from ours and requires a significant amount of power...appears to work in it's own fashion...but perhaps it is a magic amp ! Becarefull trying this at home kids it could kill you and im not sure its magic....it had its drawbacks no choice between harmonic/fundi"mental" modes hard to control unwanted strings sustaining in but its one benifet was its sustain power...i could probably capo the 24th fret high e put it down and two days later it would still be going here is the pickup for those who have not seen it http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d38/femf...off/wood015.jpg http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d38/femf...off/wood016.jpg Edited February 3, 2007 by spazzyone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted February 3, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2007 @PSW good to have you back, I'll shoot you a mail one of these days. Thanks Tim, gradually getting back too, if you ever want to come over I have room again Look forward to hearing from you... Funny, all the stuff I have collected over my life (45 years in a week or so) is starting to come back to me...everything that is except the essentials to live that is. One thing is the return of my old stage amp (if the neighbours get to me, I'll blast them with my huge 15" extention cabinet, hahaha), so now I have a house decorated in black and aluminium amps and cases, make great coffee table, bed side tables and, well any kind of table really... Not sure what to do with a suitcase full of effects, still, rediscovering some old toys amoungst the debris...every time I return the kids, my ex-wife gives them a couple more boxes of crap for me to take away...still waiting for the good stuff (I have about 20 uears of guitar player magazine, cool but not the bookcases that they lived in...) Becarefull trying this at home kids it could kill you and im not sure its magic....it had its drawbacksThanks for the warning again shawn...yes it has some drawbacks but it inspired people to explore the rail system and does serve as an example that even the weirdest stuff can work...you succeeded where others have tried and failed, even burnt out pickups, but some how yours survived... Perhaps one day the remote box sustainer will gather ground in some form or another, who knows... @Donut Man I've been using the little gem circuit with my emg and it sustains quite happily...the little gem is basically of the ruby without a preamp section; emg's have an internal preamp section, so 'technically' you don't need that, just a poweramp. Ok...so check out runoffgroove for that or try something like the circuit I used that has been posted around here somewhere...I only have dial up at the moment so I can't look for it right now as it would take forever... Back to that driver...it worked in the mid position with fizz...was that on a strat type guitar or above the strings with your EMG HB guitar? There is more that could be done to this to tighten up the response. We know that it works better below the strings than above as far as EMI is concerned for one thing. Having the coils even a little loose wouldn't help, so setting the whole thin in epoxy may make a bit of difference. Also, you could use shielding of iron in epoxy around it that, although not as extreme as Zrfittz, could be enough and be certainly easier to do. There may also be some application for higher powered and smaller magnets in this format, the HB has far less string pull, and such magnets may extend the field a little more... So, that is good news and bodes well for a rail pickup/driver... There were of course, a number of suggestions for bilateral drivers that could also be used in this manner... That jig certainly did make some fine coils and I will be making something similar in the very near future I suspect... I wonder what people feel about something... I established that a thin coil has special qualities. Mine were all about 3mm thick, but I did make some thicker... Question then, how thin is too thin. I know for instance that if I used a jig like Tims I could get a single coil down to about 2.5 or 2mm and still fit in the cover (it is the bulging at the sides that was the killer). Obviously, 2x4ohm coils can be done at 2mm. Is there an optimal thiness? The other thing to consider is that I still had room in my prototype for some shielding and with a jig made coil quite a bit more, so even the single coil still has some more tweaking that could be done to improve it's performance. This is important in that for single coil pickup modifications into pickup/drivers like mine or CurtisA's, a single coil driver is the only solution. My previous question of the distance of the coil from the strings vs the core, related to plans I have of making the driver completely within the single coil's cover, so that there would be no external evidence of the modification within it. The magnets or cores would then extend that short thickness of the cover 1-1.5mm and perhaps the coil would have some steel filler between the these within, to give it some of the qualities of the blade for string bending puposes. Unfortunately, I am not sure that a mid driver is going to possible with a single coil driver, which means that single coil mid pickups (which are typical) may need to be ruled out. That and the fact that the device would have to be very close to the strings and so perhaps get in the way of picking...may be enough to rule it out for me anyway, even if I were able to get the thing to work... Anyway...more random thoughts, still no actual construction...the sustainer guitar has be superceded too by my new strat so is a little neglected. It brings to the fore some of the practical issues many of use face...not wanting to leap in and modify a "good" guitar in this way and the loss of some functionality (loosing a pickup say) along the way. My advocation of the mid driver idea is largely an effort to minimise some of these issues. Without bypassing for instance, Col has shown on a single pickup guitar that a rotary control can provide several functions. A DPDT switch could be used (perhaps a push pull type) but where bypassing is required, you are looking really at a 4PDT and possible clicks or pops... A driver (no pickup) in the mid position would provide the same potentials and an almost drop in system for multi(2) pickup guitars...while you may loose that unique inbetween sound, there are others available on a strat that aren't typically available that have great sounds...just as on a telecaster, the neck and bridge combo in series and in parrallel are rewarding too... So more thoughts on contol systems are required. I never have understood why someone hasn't developed a full digital switching chip (not just the switch but the flip flops and whatever else, and more poles than a DPDT on a reasonable sized chip).... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zfrittz6 Posted February 3, 2007 Report Share Posted February 3, 2007 (edited) Hola a toda la gente del foro, solo quiero hacer una aclaracion, que yo no soy ese de habla hispana que comenta pete, si no he terminado mi proyecto es porque no he tenido tiempo para realizarlo, de todas formas adelanto lo que tengo hecho, tambien he estado haciendole las bobinas a Truth David y un circuito como el mio excepto que el que le he hecho a el funciona a 9V. mientras que el mio lo hace a 6V. El circuito mas pequeño es para cambiar los modos armonico, normal, armonico 1 y armonico 2. y en la parte superior la bobina antes de blindar y el circuito mas grande es el CAG y el amplificador de potencia. Hello to all the people of the forum, single I want to make a explanation, that I am not that of Hispanic speech that comments pete, if I have not finished my project is because I have not had time to make it, in any case advance which I have fact, also I have been doing the coils to him to Truth David and a circuit like mine unless the one that I have done to him to works to 9V. whereas mine it does to 6V. The small circuit but is for changing the ways harmonic, normal, harmonic harmonic 1 and 2. and in superior the part the coil before armoring and the great circuit but is the CAG and the amplifier of power. (David si no se entiende explicalo tu, gracias) La bobina esta construida con dos debanados uno interior que es la del sustainer y otra exterior con las vueltas alreves para la cancelacion de la EMI segun se habia expuesto el algun sitio del foro y aislada de la interna con algunas laminas, la segunda bobina va alimentada por otro amplificador con la fase invertida el cual se puede regular su potencia, ya que debe ser muy inferior, para no anular el efecto de la bobina interna y por el mismo circuito de CAG y preamplificador del sustainer, esto es en fase de pruebas pero que segun he comprobado he obtenido buenos resultados, disculpar por la tardanza en esto pero esque tengo muy poco tiempo con el trabajo. The coil this constructed with two debanados one interior that is the one of sustainer and another outside with the returns alreves for the cancellation of EMI according to habia exposed the some site of the isolated forum and of the internal one with some you laminate, the second coil goes fed by another amplifier with the inverted phase which can be regulated its power, since it must far below be, not to annul to the effect of the internal coil and by he himself circuit of CAG and preamplifier of sustainer, this is in phase of tests but that according to I have verified I have obtained good results, to excuse by tardanza in this but esque I have very just a short time with the work. Edited February 3, 2007 by zfrittz6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truth_David Posted February 3, 2007 Report Share Posted February 3, 2007 ... You have to be realistic - this is not a complete of the shelf product, its a DIY project. The exisiting fully complete commercial units cannot do what you are asking. If you don't want a sustainer enough to be willing to either have a second guitar with a sustainer in it, or lose some of the pickup options on your guitar, then you should probably wait a few months or years until things have moved on (or until you change your mind).... OR, start building drivers and circuits so you can either prove to yourself that you are asking too much, or discover a 'better moustrap', and take the technology as step further. OK, point taken....... Why not temporarily remove you neck pickup completely, replace it with a stand-alone driver and try a basic neck driver / bridge pickup setup. It doesn't make sense to jump in at the deep end - there are so many variables that you are unlikely to hit on the right combination for YOU at the first attempt. At least if you set up a simple basic system to try out, you will have some means of making reasonable value judgements about your more complex ideas. Yes, this and your subsequent recommendation of putting together a cheap prototype instrument are valid, thank you for all your feedback...I needed to be able to use someone as a 'sounding board' for my ideas, as basically, if one is left to his own devices, it is very difficult to remain practical and objective, especially when lack of experience means not understanding the parameters involved, as is clearly the case for me. Zrfittz is making the circuit for me with the AGC control with both harmonic modes, so I will have that circuit with the 2mm thin driver(s) which should produce a more uniform controllable feedback... Have you heard/seen Zrfittzs setup ? please tell us how it sounds and what the response is like, If its good, I would like to build it myself, but I'm not going to try that until I have some evidence . No, I have only seen the photos on the forum and recieved his written descriptions of its capabilities. But I believe that during his construction of my thin driver and AGC circuit, he has been also building the system into his new Ibanez, although when we last spoke he was expressing reservations about hacking into his new prize . But I know he intends recording some sound clips at least, if he does not get around to videoing the entire process, which would be really great.... I understand your reticence, particularly if you already have a system that works, but I have nothing to lose in trying his system out - I am an all too willing guinea pig, lol!!!! Sustainers are expensive because they are a niche product. The vast majority of players are not and never will be interested - at least enough to put up the extra dosh either for an after market install or for a built in version. So for a company to pay for wages, R & D, marketing etc. and then make a profit, the price has to be high. Most folks start playing because of their heroes... how many heroes used a sustainer ? One of my 'heroes' is Allan Holdsworth, another is Larry Carlton and another is Jeff Beck, and another is Scott Henderson - while none of them might be thought of as using a sustainer as such, unless one has access to the same type of equipment as they use, i.e custom amplification played very loud, there is litte chance of getting anywhere close to such sustain as they get. The answer then, is to use various combinations of compressors, overdrives and suchlike, but these will affect the high frequencies and give a highly processed sound, which in some cases might work, but given that the object of the exercise is to create controlled feedback, the idea of a sustainer really appeals. After all, if there is no need for masses of distortion in order to drive the amp into sustain, why use it? The fact is that the sound of feedback to my ears is actually very pure, being composed mainly of high order harmonics, and we tend to use overdrive to create them, rather than the nasty odd order harmonics of the fuzz box type of stomp box. And in fact artists who developed their sound through trying to get somewhere close to other artists, such as Allan Holdsworth have used sustainers to do so - the guy from 'It Bites' comes to mind, I can't think of th rest off hand, but more than one would generally think. WE know that in reality, its esier to get a Hendrix feedback wail at reasonable volume with a sustainer, but no marketing department is going to say "buy our guitar and amp - its just like what Hendrix used... oh but to get an authentic sound, you'll need a sustainer..." it just doesn't work - remember, its dreams not reality that they are selling Quite, but what they could say is "Buy our product and get controlled feedback at any volume and infinite sustain without sacrificing your instrument's tone and having to use compression and distortion to get it - hear the real tone of your guitar at last! - Now you can find your own tone." Is that not also selling a dream? But for once it would be more than just hype... Yamahas early physical modelling synths create the sound from scratch - then put it through similar digital waveguides and filters (developed at stanford btw, its fascinating stuff, and 'fairly' easy to understand roughly how it works. Although it very quickly gets VERY difficult due t the math involved) ... So the problem is that for line6 type moddeling to work, the string has to be vibrating - when the string stops, the sound stops... Yes, the same is true for the Roland VG-8 physical modeling unit so you cannot use that tech to 'model' a sustainer. The sustainer works at a more fundamental level than digital modelling - alhtough they could complement each other very well. Yes, that would be really interesting, if I could get the VG-8 working again, there are some modeled sounds that I would love to try with the sustainer... Btw, if you want a modelling interface that uses a PC/laptop then it's been around for a while - Native Instruments 'Guitar Rig' I can't find the webpage right now, but there is a system that has been developed with a guitar effects PC based processor with its own screen and selectable footswitch system. Apparently the same system is implemented in the Open Source program 'Reaper'. I am not talking about merely using your PC to run a program like Guitar Rig - this is a PC built around a dedicated sound processor for guitar. It works like any other signal processor at floor level, but the difference is that you can type any parameter into the program and get within the system architecture at whatever level you choose. There is also no limitation whatsoever to the virtual configuration of FX, so one can have literally any combination of FX chains going on. But I digress, the main point is that here we are talking about a Linux based system that has its own OS specifically tailored for guitar processing. It does not have to fart about dealing with crappy versions of Windoze and constant infections, hacking attempts and the entire plethora of the Windoze experience. It can use Linux as a very fast tool through which to process its DSP functions. And I believe that once such a device can be marketed, people will very quickly choose this over the 'bend over and tweak your floorboard' torture that they have been subjecting us to since Boss went digital. So I was generalizing in terms of FX processing, rather than speaking specifically about modeling a sustainer in this way... Keyboard players took to digital because of the practical problems of analogue synths - temperature sensitivity, expense, stability etc. Also the fact that a keyboard is basically just a row of switches which translates well int simple instructions for a computer, so there is no need to modify playing styles and techniques... oh and of course the sounds - Analogue sounds are great, but compared to digital, the range of sounds available/possible is pretty limited. Guitar is a different beast altogether - it's a very organic thing.. and the sound is the sound of a real instrument made from natural materials (usually). Combine that with the romance factor and the iconic image.. its always going to be difficult to convince people that anything new could be anywhere nearly as good. There have been many attempts to control synths with guitars... not all expensive - remember the G-Vox ? No, that one escaped me.....but it sounds good a bolt on synth controller for very low price that had a great trick where it could adjust for the usual tracking lag so your midi recordings were magically auto matically fixed ? it didn't last long at all - it worked well, was marketed widely, was cheap and had good reviews... what more could you ask for? the reality is that there is no mass market for such things, they are niche. They are niche products because of the tendency for guitarists to see such things as midi implementation as something separate from the guitar - because that is how it has been presented. What I am saying is that this perception will eventually shift as new designs for the guitar itself become accepted in the mainstream. Technology is racing ahead now, and if one compares say a Warr guitar (which probably evolved from the Chapman Stick) with a 'normal guitar', one can see that the scope offered by this new breed of stringed instrument is vast. You now have te entire range of a bass guitar plus considerably higher range than the standard guitar as we now know it. Now you may argue that one is not going to want to tap with both hands on every piece of music - that is why I mentioned the Warr guitar - despite being what is in my opinion the most ugly instrument I have ever seen, it can be strummed and played as a normal guitar, but lends itself equally to tapping etc. At present such instruments are for the eclectic few who can afford the time and expense involved, but if you look at the NAMM show writeups, you will find that some entrepeneurial Japanese companies are starting to enter the marketplace, and if they were to price these instruments within our pricerange, one would be able to afford to experiment with such instruments. And that is what I see happening. From a different perspective, guitarists are not behind at all from a technological perspective, it's just different technology thats being researched and developed. It is becoming more and more widely accepted that digital sucks for guitar, and there has been much analysis to explain why... the real push is in guitar tech has been in analogue, valve amps and analogue effects - and its not been the big commercial companies. There are many websites devoted to building modifying and more importantly analysing and understanding traditional guitar effects and amps... geofex is a good place to start. I will check these out, but for me, the Pod XT straight through a desk takes some beating, especially in terms of convenience - no more lugging a MIII Boogie to and from gigs - my back has already paid the price of years of such abuse. After all I am not likely to be doing a stadium gig again any time soon, and in my present situation I cannot play loud either. But if as you say these analogue amp simulators can knock spots off a Pod (have you heard the Pod XT?), then that would be worthwhile checking out. I see where you are coming from, you are from the old school of the die hard 'valves are best' philosophy - I respect that point of view - my first amp was an Akai reel to reel deck powered by valves, and it coincided with listening to Johnny Mac with the Mahavishnu Orchestra playing 'Birds of Fire' and discovering BB King and all those blues guys - I know the difference too.... Go take a look at www.runoffgroove.com. They design analogue amp simulators that are easy and cheap to make, and can knock a POD into a cocked hat as far as sound quality is concerned... but you can't beat a small (ideally 1 or 2 watt) classA valve amp cranked through a high quality speaker... go looky here Thanks....I had a somewhat cursory look at these, being an absolute noob in the electronics field, and not at all sure whether I can really stretch myself in yet another direction, I have to admit to feeling the allure of DIY stuff like this....perhaps if I were a little younger, and had good health, so that I could make more of my free time, it would be really worthwhile considering, but in my present circumstances, I need to be able to make the most of the time I am actually capable of playing, and try to find a sound setup finally that really works for me. I have spent many years exploring different technologies, as we all do....at times I have come pretty close, but portability has always been an issue. I would still trade in any multi-FX processor for a rack full of discrete processors, but then you would have to cart the rack around, as I used to, literally! But I would dearly like to get my hands on a really nice little valve amp like the Umble for instance, especially in combination with the sustainer... The problem for me with valve amps is not with the overdrive they produce, but the clean sound. For me it is just not clean enough, when I really want a clean sound. Like Allan Holdsworth, I preferred the mos-FET approach, at least for the clean channel, and I can't start thinking about separate amps for clean and distorted sounds, even though that would be the ideal. I guess its that compromise thing again - which do you choose? two or three great sounds? or a vast selection of so-so ones? I agree absolutely - what I really want is to be able to achieve the difference in tone from clean to distorted just by being able to roll off the volume control on the guitar, then be able to add delay and more reverb and chorus when I need them for the clean sound. I feel that they sell us a plethora of sounds in order to hide the fact that no single sound is really outstanding.....I too am sick of remodding factory presets for hours on end, only to find that on the gig they sound crap. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted February 3, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2007 @zfrittz6Hola a toda la gente del foro, solo quiero hacer una aclaracion, que yo no soy ese de habla hispana que comenta pete Hello to all the people of the forum, single I want to make a explanation, that I am not that of Hispanic speech that comments peteMy appologies, I do realize that you are not that other person...no offence meant. My reservations are just that it has not been fully installed and so it's true performance is not known. I understand the lack of time though as I have had very little for quite a while... All of the principles and technology is sound...at the very least it will work in the neck position as with col's. The coil this constructed with two debanados one interior that is the one of sustainer and another outside with the returns alreves for the cancellation of EMI according to habia exposed the some site of the isolated forum and of the internal one with some you laminate, the second coil goes fed by another amplifier with the inverted phase which can be regulated its power, since it must far below be, not to annul to the effect of the internal coil and by he himself circuit of CAG and preamplifier of sustainer, this is in phase of tests but that according to I have verified I have obtained good results, to excuse by tardanza in this but esque I have very just a short time with the work. This is interesting, but there are still some problems, probably in translation... I have seen various schemes displayed and explained but not enough of the internal structure of the driver or the details of the circuit. I too have thought of secondary coils with adjustable amplification. It is now not clear if there are two coils side by side, as with a rail design (Tim and Col) or now is one coil wrapped around the outside of the other. When these schemes have surfaced before, there were reservations about the extra power required to run the active shielding. So, now it appears to have both active shielding and passive magnetic shielding, and all this in an extremely compact size...all good ideas but how it is achieved is still a little unclear... One of my 'heroes' is Allan Holdsworth, another is Larry Carlton and another is Jeff Beck, and another is Scott Henderson - All players, and Francis Dunnery, from it bites...are admired by me (big JB fan). The sustainer will produce these sounds, particularly Larry Carlton who do it with only mild distortion. It also simulates the feel and touch that these players enjoy. And, it produces sounds that isn't possible...clean feedback. So...does zfrittz6 device work in the mid position and provide an overall solution is still to be seen. Basically it is very similar to what we have prescribed, but I have not tested col's circuit and he had reservations about it trying to increase drive and therefore EMI due to the compression technology in it. But, now looking at the picture, is this col's circuit or yet another version? On the cost of sustainers. One of my benchmarks has been the price of quality pickups. The sustainer is a far more involved device than a pickup, yet a sustainer system is not that far above that I believe. Installation costs could be the killer. Had I thought I could compete at a radically lower price point to available systems, certainly I would have been driven to develop it further. The "pop" experienced with my system still worries me on that score (not really acceptable for a commercial product in my view, though early sustainers suffered from it I believe). Also, besides the different approach, the outcome is very similar with my system as the commercial units can achieve. So, could I do it cheaper? Probably not at this stage, because we are talking about a completely hand built device and circuitry. For me, a "product" would only emerge when we have developed a system that is simple and foolproof to install and offers the same functionality as the present units or more, at a similar or lower price. Without any economies of scale, this is not really likely. Then there are all the legal ramifications of coming close to existing patented technology, and while the thin driver and other aspects may be patentable, the cost of protecting it is far too great... The ideal end product would be if some pickup manufactuer were to pickup on the ideas here. They have the infrastructure and marketing power to make my pickup/driver idea a commercial reality, but there has never seemed to be any commercial interest in that regard. Even with a tiny circuit and proffessionally made circuitry and ironing out the controls, you will still have the perenial problem of how to get the battery into most guitars...grrrr So...for the immediate future, this is likely to remain a DIY device. If I can get it to a stage that I am happy to commercially promote, I may make the circuitry and driver coils available so that getting into this project would not require such a leap of faith and the need to develop new skills...we'll see... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truth_David Posted February 4, 2007 Report Share Posted February 4, 2007 Hi Col. My apologies in getting back to you..... Its not the same as the VG8 style anomalies, the fizz I'm talking about is a type of clipping distortion, not unlike a fuzzbox effect. It is caused (we think) by the guitar pickup 'sensing' the driver signal.. so if the driver signal is at all distorted, this distortion will be heard in the background as fizz. It gets worse the closer the driver is to the pickup. If you are talking about the sound samples I uploaded, then yes, there are lots of crackles and clicks... As I explained more recently, that was caused by an earthing problem in my home made speaker simulator.. which is now fixed. (have a look at the waveform in an editor, it is badly clipped on one side - very asymetrical - it was noticing that that helped me solve the problem). My sustainer can function with a clean guitar tone without adding any fizz, fuzz crackle, pop or any other distortion !. The only time I get any annoying artifacts is with a brand new battery - the circuit was tuned for 9v, and many Alkaline cells start as high as 9.5v so I get a little fizz on low notes, and a little string/frett rattle on the D and G strings. I could go and tweak the trimpots to deal with this, but then it wouldn't work as well with an old battery... more compromises . My guitar has a medium action - I don't like a low a action - no good unles you are a 'shredder'. A medium or higher action with heavier strings gives much better tone and gives you more control of finger pressure to really make bends and vibrato sing. Well, I think it is both a matter of taste or personal preference, as well as whether like me, one starts off with an electric rather than acoustic guitar. I must admit that I never developed as much finger strength as those who spent years practicing on a stiffer actioned acoustic. Even when I was playing jazz on an ES175, despite relatively heavy flatwounds, the action was actually even lower than on a well set up Strat. So my personal preference is 009- 045mm guage D'Addarios. I have tried other guages, but they just don't feel right to my fingers. Try playing legato style with medium strings..... But despite the light guage strings, my guitar has absolutely no buzzes anywhere - the result of expensive re-profiling and refretting to my personal preference. But it is roundabouts and swings - on the one hand you have Jeff Beck, who plays with an action most of us would find really uncomfortably high, and comparitively heavy strings, but who has a tone to die for, then at the other extreme we have Allan Holdsworth, who often uses 008's (and not tuned to F like Hendrix), and who also has a superb tone, and the action on his guitars is to die for. But I believe that the majority of the tone is achieved through the fingers. That is why I am not keen on heavily saturated distortion - I like to hear the subtle nuances from the contact between fingers and strings, as well as the tone of the instrument itself. Yes, thats what I thought, he started with my circuit, but had a few problems - probably because of the single coil driver - and mostly because of the language barrier, he gave up and went down a different route. In a later post from Zfrittz6, you can read his explanation....it was more a matter of not bing able to find the necessary time to complete the circuit building etc. The main reaosn I want to hear his system is because one of his criticisms of my setup is that it doesn't respond fast enough - i.e. sustain/harmonics don't kick in quickly enough. Now that is due to the way AGC works with the sustainer system, so any working AGC circuit will have a similar delay before sustain and harmonics bloom. If there is no delay with his system then the AGC is not doing much and the battery will drain quickly... or there has been another babelesque misunderstanding. I don't know whether he will have understood all of your terminology - babelesque, for example is probably an invention of yours, and perhaps it might be as well to remember that the non-native English speakers on this forum might equally have difficulties with such terminology, and fun as it might be to experiment linguistically, it is not really fair to those who are trying to glean information from your posts.... The question of whether or not his version of the AGC circuit functions correctly will have to be taken up with him, as I lack the expertise necessary to comment. Ah, I didn't realise that you had even bigger plans for this project... I am a little worried for you now :-| You and me both, lol! Not only do you want a sustainer to beat all sustainers, but you want to put it in a guitar alongside a guitar to midi interface ? To me, the MIDI interface is secondary in importance to the main function of the bridge, which is to provide a piezzo acoustic sound. That seems like a huge number of things to debug if/when it doesn't work quite as expected. How are you planning to power the two circuits? That is one of the first areas I discussed with Richard McLish, director of RMC. He told me that there was absolutely no reason that the 9v power supply of the RMC circuit should not be shared with a sustainer - as I mentioned, he pointed out that Parker guitars have produced a model equipped with an RMC piezzo/MIDI, sustainer and Variax for Adrian Belew. are you going to have enough space? (with your pickup/sustainer switching requirements, you will need loads of extra room for wiring, switches and/or switching circuitry) What will you do if it doesn't work out? The rear-routed Warmoth hollow body has about the same space in the control cavity as a Les Paul, or possibly a little more, and is possibly deeper than a normal Strat cavity. But the RMC circuit actually sits behind the 13 pin DIN socket, it is really tiny. And in my Strat, there is still plenty of room. My intention is to also combine Volume and Tone pots into a single concentric pot, then add push/push or push/pull pots in order to switch between series/parallel if I go for stacked humbuckers. The guitar as it now stands only has one pot that a normal Strat lacks, although the other pots have very different functions from those of a normal Strat: It has a master volume, then below that, a master MIDI volume combined with a push/pull pot for switching all pickups on at once. Then below that there is a blend control pot for the piezzo/normal pickup. Then mounted in what was the standard jack recess is a master tone control, and next to that an Off/On/On switch for MIDI/normal and off. Aside from that, there are a pair of now largely redundant sub-mini momentary switches for MIDI controllers. Which is more important to you, the midi interface or the sustainer ? whichever it is, I would get that all setup and working then see if the other will work along side - if it deosn't, it may need some real electronics expertise to debug it. Can't you go and buy a cheapo crappy used strat copy from a junk shop to do frankenstrat experiments on to get all your fancy techy ideas worked out on before you start routing good wood and shelling out good money on pickups etc. Then at least if it doesn't work out, it's not the end of the world ? The idea is to start with my Tokai strat (unless I manage to find the sort of bargain basement axe you recommend), before shelling out for a Warmoth hollow body, see what works and how, then transfer the hardware over to the new body. Talk about Frankenstein! personally I would definately go for one sustainer guitar and one seperate midi controller guitar - the midi controller could be any cheapo piece of crap with a playable neck - just spend some time setting it up... doesn't need a great natural tone if its just for switching midi signals. OR learn to play keyboards (this is probably the main reason why guitar to midi is still niche - people prefer to learn to play keyboards) Point taken, but for me as I said, it is the piezzo bridge that is important to my sound, more than its secondary function as a MIDI bridge system. I already play a little keyboards, by the way, but it is just not the same as being able to come up with neat chord voicings on the guitar à la Holdsworth. Actually, this guitar was my cheap MIDI axe, because I never liked the neck and the body always felt way too heavy. Then one day after having problems with my Ibanez Prestige, some time after having finally gotten around to reprofiling the neck and fingerboard, I tried out the Fender/Tokai on a gig, and was blown away by the clarity of tone - no more mud! That in addition to the excellent RMC piezzo system, and I realized that despite the fact that it is really heavy and cumbersome, the neck now felt even better than the Ibanez s series neck. But the pickups are horrible and the tremolo bridge itself is very worn and noisy, which does no favours to the piezzo system. So I decided that I would rebuild the whole lot into a nice lightweigth hollow or chambered body Strat, and at the same time upgrade the bridge and pickups. Then I discovered the sustainer forum..... anyway good luck - and pleeease consider simplifying your ideas and lowering your sights just a little ? Thank you for your kind thoughts and sound advice...perhaps the deciding factor will be when I receive the sustainer from Zfrittz6. At that point I will have to make a decision, one way or another, or it will just sit there. One point is that given that the pickups I now have are pretty awful, it might be worthwhile experimenting with at least one of them in order to mount the thin driver. And I have a second scratch plate with no mods, so I can hack away at this one without too much fear of spoiling it. The body has had several modifications such as a battery compartment routed in behind the tremolo cavity, so it is probably as good as any cheapo body to start with. The only issue that will as you say complicate matters is the existing RMC circuitry. But rest assured that I have my antenna out for a Frankenstein project guitar donor. It might even end up as a second guitar once I sell the Prestige. David Here is a jpg image of the various options for pickups, I just got a reasonable quote for the Carvins - around 40€ plus import duty from France. 6# also doubles as the 'Duckbucker', one idea is to have some form of humbucker in the bridge and neck positions for fatter sounds and wire them series/parallel and certainly go for a reverse wound single coil (or noiseless variety) in the middle position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted February 4, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2007 David...light strings will be a big problem. The sustainer works by exciting the strings magnetically and to do that it needs something to work on... the lighter the strings the less mass there is to work with. Those high strings will not work well, if at all...even with the commercial units, this is a requirement. Furthermore, with heavier strings, higher action will be necessary as they will have a wider vibrational arc. The sustainer in full flight will be bouncing a really low action off the frets... So it is not simply a matter of personal choice, there are limitations, and this is a major one. My new guitar, as is common these days, is really well set up with .09's and a low action and it is so much easier to play, legato and speed is a breeze...but, that will have to go for a sustainer to work properly... Now, the up side is that a strong sustainer will excite the strings with a little signal, so that in some ways tapping, legato and such are easier as the sustainer is doing the picking from the signal of these lower level taps and pulls... Speed though is a sacrifice, lighter lower actions let you play with more speed largely because of the ease in which the strings can be pressed down and the less flams between fretting and picking. On way of getting some of that light guage feel back is to tune down...then you get lighter guage feel, lower tension and enogh mass to keep the sustainer happy. The lower general frequencies will be easier to drive too! Of course, it can be tricky to play with a band if this is an important part of your technique. Another reason to perhaps consider a dedicated sustainer guitar... So, again...if you can test out the sustainer and other hardware of interest on something that you can then transfer to something else...it may not be for you afterall...or...you may find that there are enough other technical treasures to tempt you... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truth_David Posted February 4, 2007 Report Share Posted February 4, 2007 David...light strings will be a big problem. The sustainer works by exciting the strings magnetically and to do that it needs something to work on... the lighter the strings the less mass there is to work with. Those high strings will not work well, if at all...even with the commercial units, this is a requirement. Furthermore, with heavier strings, higher action will be necessary as they will have a wider vibrational arc. The sustainer in full flight will be bouncing a really low action off the frets... So it is not simply a matter of personal choice, there are limitations, and this is a major one. My new guitar, as is common these days, is really well set up with .09's and a low action and it is so much easier to play, legato and speed is a breeze...but, that will have to go for a sustainer to work properly... Now, the up side is that a strong sustainer will excite the strings with a little signal, so that in some ways tapping, legato and such are easier as the sustainer is doing the picking from the signal of these lower level taps and pulls... Speed though is a sacrifice, lighter lower actions let you play with more speed largely because of the ease in which the strings can be pressed down and the less flams between fretting and picking. On way of getting some of that light guage feel back is to tune down...then you get lighter guage feel, lower tension and enogh mass to keep the sustainer happy. The lower general frequencies will be easier to drive too! Of course, it can be tricky to play with a band if this is an important part of your technique. Another reason to perhaps consider a dedicated sustainer guitar... So, again...if you can test out the sustainer and other hardware of interest on something that you can then transfer to something else...it may not be for you afterall...or...you may find that there are enough other technical treasures to tempt you... pete Hi Pete, thank you for alerting me to this potential issue. I was unaware of it as it was not a problem I experienced with the e-bow, perhaps a little more in the case of the bronze acoustic strings, but I had no problem with eventually getting the strings to sustain. Much of my combined picking, strumming and tapping technique depends upon having a light action. It may be that eventually with enough practice, I will be able to adapt to heavier guage strings. In fact at one point I actually started playing with a 013mm first string and a wound third and an uncomfortable action, in search of that blues tone. That destroyed the shape of my fingertips through string bending 'till my fingers bled. My fingertips never went back to their normal shape after that. I have been trying to get my (fretting hand) fingernails to grow back to a reasonable length ever since. I don't know - I'll have to see if I can make the device work for me, or else find an alternative to achieve the sustain I need. Actually my now defunct Hartley Thompson amps came very close to that. But the attraction for me of the sustainer lies also in the fact that it can get chords sustaining, which could really bring that combined tapping technique to life in a way that is presently impossible with the e-bow for obvious reasons. I didn't think to ask Zfrittz6 what string guages he used with his sustainer, if he doesn't reply here, I'll e-mail him. But I suspect that he probably just uses light guage, like most players. This explains also why AH has not used a sustainer, as although I am sure that over the years his legato technique will have given him amazing finger strength, I am not at all sure that he would be able to maintain such characteristic fluidity in his playing if he had to use a high action and heavy strings. I know that Scott Henderson uses 010's and probably 011's in his blues band and still gets pretty ****close to Allan's sound and technique, but he is a different animal altogether - like Jeff Beck, he has a very wild side that probably got him thrown out of the Elektric Band. Larry Carlton also uses slightly heavy guage strings, although those he used in the '80s with the Valley Arts Strats sounded like 009's to me. But of course I could well be mistaken. Problem is that guitars like the Ibanez Prestige are only built to take up to a 011mm guage. Any heavier and Ibanez say you are risking damaging the neck. A Strat is definitely more resiliant (unless a Floyd Rose is fitted), but with my heavily re-profiled neck and fingerboard, presumably the same risks remain. Of course, with heavier strings you increase fret wear too - not great news. So guys - if the e-bow can be made to work with light strings, what are they doing differently that enables the device to still function in a scenario in which your sustainers cannot? I can assure you that it works with 009's on my guitars. Sure you have to be careful not to press down too far over the string, and avoid getting the string vibrating too hard so that it buzzes the strings against the upper frets....but actually getting the strings to sustain, especially up to say the octave fret position, was no great problem. As I mentioned before, I really see little point in trying to get a sustainer to work on the next octave, unless you really want to generate 3rd and 4th octave feedback and destroy your hearing in the process. 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zfrittz6 Posted February 4, 2007 Report Share Posted February 4, 2007 Hola, solo decir que siempre utilizo cuerdas 009 a 042. Saludos. Hello, single to say that I always use cords 009 to 042. Greetings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primal Posted February 4, 2007 Report Share Posted February 4, 2007 I'm not sure, but I believe that the ebow, while having a smaller coil, actually has more of the coil acting on the string than the DIY driver (i.e. the driver only uses a short section of the entire coil, while the ebow uses the entire length of the coil). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted February 4, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2007 Yes primal, the ebow only has to work on one string at a time and concentrates all it's energy on one string, it also only senses that string, so does not have to transmit a range of frequencies from different strings across all of them...so it does have an advantage. Also, it can be moved to a sweet spot and take adantage of the pickup's magnetic field for effect! Only the highest strings will be difficult to drive with light strings. This has been found to be true time and again with our devices and with the commercial units...however... Vai is using the sustainer with light strings on his guitar I would think, and a low action.. Also, the dual coil drivers may work better with lighter strings than my single coil design. It has not been fully explored I guess as, except for my new guitar, I already had .10's on it! Anyway...as far as all this goes, it won't be until some experimenting on some kind of instrument, that anyone will know how it will go. Right now, I am still trying to think of ways to convert a single coil into a driver/pickup with a chance of working in the middle position...perhaps I should explore zfrittz6 active shielding ideas (also in a sustainiac patent somewhere BTW)... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truth_David Posted February 4, 2007 Report Share Posted February 4, 2007 Hola a toda la gente del foro, solo quiero hacer una aclaracion, que yo no soy ese de habla hispana que comenta pete, si no he terminado mi proyecto es porque no he tenido tiempo para realizarlo, de todas formas adelanto lo que tengo hecho, tambien he estado haciendole las bobinas a Truth David y un circuito como el mio excepto que el que le he hecho a el funciona a 9V. mientras que el mio lo hace a 6V. El circuito mas pequeño es para cambiar los modos armonico, normal, armonico 1 y armonico 2. y en la parte superior la bobina antes de blindar y el circuito mas grande es el CAG y el amplificador de potencia. Hello to all the people of the forum, single I want to make a explanation, that I am not that of Hispanic speech that comments pete, if I have not finished my project is because I have not had time to make it, in any case advance which I have fact, also I have been doing the coils to him to Truth David and a circuit like mine unless the one that I have done to him to works to 9V. whereas mine it does to 6V. The small circuit but is for changing the ways harmonic, normal, harmonic harmonic 1 and 2. and in superior the part the coil before armoring and the great circuit but is the CAG and the amplifier of power. (David si no se entiende explicalo tu, gracias) De acuerdo, disculpas por tardar tanto.... OK, apologies for getting to this so late in the day.... La bobina esta construida con dos debanados uno interior que es la del sustainer y otra exterior con las vueltas alreves para la cancelacion de la EMI segun se habia expuesto el algun sitio del foro y aislada de la interna con algunas laminas, la segunda bobina va alimentada por otro amplificador con la fase invertida el cual se puede regular su potencia, ya que debe ser muy inferior, para no anular el efecto de la bobina interna y por el mismo circuito de CAG y preamplificador del sustainer, esto es en fase de pruebas pero que segun he comprobado he obtenido buenos resultados, disculpar por la tardanza en esto pero esque tengo muy poco tiempo con el trabajo. I've been exhausting my resources trying to find a translation for the term 'debanados' with no success whatsoever. But here is what might be a slightly easier to understand translation of this last part of Zrittz6's description of his AGC circuit and slim driver: Hi everyone on the forum, I just want to clarify that am not the Spanish speaker of whom Pete was speaking. If I have not so far completed my project it is because I have not had the time to do so, in any case I am publishing what I have completed so far, and bear in mind that I have also been making the coils for David as well as a circuit the same as mine, except that the one I have made for him is designed for a 9v power supply, whereas mine runs off 6v. The smaller of the two circuits is for changing the harmonic modes, normal, 1 and 2, and the upper part of the coil before shielding it. And the larger circuit is the ACG and power amplifier. The coil is made up of two (bobbins?), one internal for the sustainer and another external, reverse wound for EMI cancellation following something I read somewhere on the forum, and insulated from the internal (bobbin/coil?) with laminated strips of metal. The second coil is fed by another amplifier which is phase inverted, through which its power (output) can be attenuated (controlled), given that it needs to be very low in order to avoid negating the effect of the internal coil, and for the same ACG circuit and sustainer pre-amp. Although it is still in the testing phase I have obtained good results from my trials. Apologies for taking so long over all this, but with my two jobs I am left with very little time. The coil this constructed with two debanados one interior that is the one of sustainer and another outside with the returns alreves for the cancellation of EMI according to habia exposed the some site of the isolated forum and of the internal one with some you laminate, the second coil goes fed by another amplifier with the inverted phase which can be regulated its power, since it must far below be, not to annul to the effect of the internal coil and by he himself circuit of CAG and preamplifier of sustainer, this is in phase of tests but that according to I have verified I have obtained good results, to excuse by tardanza in this but esque I have very just a short time with the work. I hope this translation clarifies any difficult points in Zfrittz6's post.... David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primal Posted February 4, 2007 Report Share Posted February 4, 2007 David, if you had typed in "debanados" in to Google, it would have offered a spelling correction of "devanados" which translates to windings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truth_David Posted February 5, 2007 Report Share Posted February 5, 2007 (edited) David, if you had typed in "debanados" in to Google, it would have offered a spelling correction of "devanados" which translates to windings. Thanks Primal many hispanics and spaniards also confuse 'b' and 'v'. This is one example....and being somewhat in a hurry I did not think about that possibility. Sorry. What is going on with this java auto-format garbage that will not allow me to decide where to put my line breaks? Edited February 5, 2007 by Truth_David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truth_David Posted February 5, 2007 Report Share Posted February 5, 2007 Hola, solo decir que siempre utilizo cuerdas 009 a 042. Saludos. Hello, single to say that I always use cords 009 to 042. Greetings. *This should read 'just to say...', and 'strings', not 'cords' Gracias Juan, esto es lo que suponia....entonces, esto quiere decir que no estarias de acuerdo con lo que dice Col y Pete acerca de la necesidad para tener cuerdas menos finas para que el sustainer funciona bien? Thanks Juan, that is what I thought....so that is to say that you do not agree with what Col and Pete are saying regarding the necessity of heavier guage strings in order for the sustainer to work? David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truth_David Posted February 5, 2007 Report Share Posted February 5, 2007 Yes primal, the ebow only has to work on one string at a time and concentrates all it's energy on one string, it also only senses that string, so does not have to transmit a range of frequencies from different strings across all of them...so it does have an advantage. Also, it can be moved to a sweet spot and take adantage of the pickup's magnetic field for effect! Yes, that is something I really like.... Only the highest strings will be difficult to drive with light strings. This has been found to be true time and again with our devices and with the commercial units...however... Vai is using the sustainer with light strings on his guitar I would think, and a low action.. So you see, there is the possibility of making it work for me too! And yes it is most likely that the 7 string Ibanez Gems will be set up with a low and light action. Also, the dual coil drivers may work better with lighter strings than my single coil design. It has not been fully explored I guess as, except for my new guitar, I already had .10's on it! I imagine that Zrittz6's design could be adapted for dual coils too? Anyway...as far as all this goes, it won't be until some experimenting on some kind of instrument, that anyone will know how it will go. Well, it looks as if I might be next in line, thanks to Zrittz6.... Right now, I am still trying to think of ways to convert a single coil into a driver/pickup with a chance of working in the middle position...perhaps I should explore zfrittz6 active shielding ideas (also in a sustainiac patent somewhere BTW)... That might be a good idea.... Incidentally Pete, I have been mulling over the idea of going back to basics in terms of amplification - that's to say going all valve again, I just saw/heard a video of the Suhr Badger amp and it blew me away; but when I look at the prices it makes me cringe. But there do seem to be quite a few DIY options out there, and I have also found blueprints for some stuff like the Dumble mods, strangely enough on Spanish sites....what would you recommend with a relatively small size (112) yet big warm sound and versatile settings etc, like the Suhr amps? David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donut Man Posted February 5, 2007 Report Share Posted February 5, 2007 (edited) another quick question: Do I have to use the ruby or the little gem amplifier/preamps? Can I just use some sort of generic audio amplifier, maybe a pre-built one like these: http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?TabID=...4&criteria= http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?TabID=...1&criteria= http://www.maplin.co.uk/module.aspx?ITAG=S...mp;doy=5m2#spec Or this http://www.quasarelectronics.co.uk/3017.htm since its 386 based also, is there a difference between a LM386 and a LM386N-1? http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?Module...ier&doy=5m2 Can I use that for the little gem? Edited February 5, 2007 by Donut Man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted February 6, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 another quick question: Do I have to use the ruby or the little gem amplifier/preamps? Can I just use some sort of generic audio amplifier, maybe a pre-built one like these: Or this http://www.quasarelectronics.co.uk/3017.htm since its 386 based Can I use that for the little gem? Yes...the LM386 version is good but will need a little modification. For the output cap (470uF) you will want to use something a little smaller (I use a 100uF) and probably connect the jumper between the 10uF cap between pins 1 & 8 for full power. You could use a trim pot of 100k connecting the centre and the mid legs to this jumper connection to adjust it between 20x to 200x power (I use full power). Ive got a 7 string guitar with an EMG 707 at the bridge. I was wondering, Do I still need a ruby/gem preamp thing to drive a driver? Or can I just split the signal from the EMG and have 1 going to the output jacks/pots and one to a driver at the neck? Ahh...that's right, you have the active EMG pickup, yes? So, like Tim, you may not need a preamp at all as there is one in the EMG itself. So yes, split the signal, or go to the circuit and then the controls (same thing really). As you may need to do some mods as above, you may want to get the kit but I see constructed is the same price...so you could mod that... Would be pretty small too...30mmx30mm but there are a few things on there (switch and LED (you will see this adds to the power drain a little)) that you could leave off or wire to something more suitable for the guitar after testing. You may also need to play with that output cap...the higher the value, the better bass response...as the higher strings are harder to drive, I use a smaller one. As you have a seven string, perhaps you would prefer a higher value...add more or swap for values up to perhaps 220uF. I get a nice bloom into harmonic feedback on my lower strings with the smaller cap...it is a matter of taste I guess. The other amps are too powerful and won't run long with a battery, if at all. The LM386 is specifically designed for battery applications and is ideal for this project, at least in this stage. I'd try this alone with your EMG setup, but if necessary or for more power, add a preamp to it later. Remember, you will need 0.2mm enamelled wire for the driver, magnets and stuff. The driver is the heart of this project. It may take a couple of goes to get it right, but the wire is cheap. Also...test the thing out before you go for a full install. Get the amp. connect it to the pickup and hold the driver above the strings to be sure it is working properly...then think about switches, battery boxes and stuff to suit your needs. Sounds like a good project and I hope to hear more about how you intend to make the driver and how the device performs on a seven string...keep in touch... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onelastgoodbye Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 Yes...the LM386 version is good but will need a little modification. For the output cap (470uF) you will want to use something a little smaller (I use a 100uF) and probably connect the jumper between the 10uF cap between pins 1 & 8 for full power. You could use a trim pot of 100k connecting the centre and the mid legs to this jumper connection to adjust it between 20x to 200x power (I use full power). I'm using full power as well, volume is only halfway though. Was playing the sustainer this weekend, it's so friggin cool! what I love most about it, is the ferocity it has. There's surprisingly much power for such a little thing,keeping in mind it has loose cores and the coils could be potted better (the epoxy hasn't fully hardened). One thing I've noticed is that there's no real harmonic or fundamental mode...everything eventually shifts into harmonics, only in fundamental mode (or in what I suppose is fundamental mode) it just takes a bit longer. Everything below the twelfth fret shows more resilience to shiffting,too. The fact the driver sort of has a mind of it's own might seem a disadvantage, but I find it really adds to the natural feel of it, as this behavior is what I would expect from natural sustain or feedback. I got the same phenomenon on my single coil drivers as well, so it could just be that my setup lends itself to favoring harmonics. the unpredictability factor also tends to make you improvise more, which is a big plus imo. Now if I ever get round to that acg circuit...and the internal magnets...and epoxy shielding.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
col Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 (edited) Yes...the LM386 version is good but will need a little modification. For the output cap (470uF) you will want to use something a little smaller (I use a 100uF) and probably connect the jumper between the 10uF cap between pins 1 & 8 for full power. You could use a trim pot of 100k connecting the centre and the mid legs to this jumper connection to adjust it between 20x to 200x power (I use full power). I'm using full power as well, volume is only halfway though. Was playing the sustainer this weekend, it's so friggin cool! what I love most about it, is the ferocity it has. There's surprisingly much power for such a little thing,keeping in mind it has loose cores and the coils could be potted better (the epoxy hasn't fully hardened). One thing I've noticed is that there's no real harmonic or fundamental mode...everything eventually shifts into harmonics, only in fundamental mode (or in what I suppose is fundamental mode) it just takes a bit longer. Everything below the twelfth fret shows more resilience to shiffting,too. The fact the driver sort of has a mind of it's own might seem a disadvantage, but I find it really adds to the natural feel of it, as this behavior is what I would expect from natural sustain or feedback. I got the same phenomenon on my single coil drivers as well, so it could just be that my setup lends itself to favoring harmonics. the unpredictability factor also tends to make you improvise more, which is a big plus imo. Now if I ever get round to that acg circuit...and the internal magnets...and epoxy shielding.. (Edit in italics) Are your strings hitting the frets? If so (and "ferocity" would suggest so) then that could be a reason why everything goes to harmonics and is a little unpredictable. FWIW, the AGC tames the fecocity. When I played around with the basic fetzer ruby/single coil driver I had ferocity too, almost uncontrolable wild sustain and feedback. The feedforward AGC keeps it completely under control - in many ways this is good, but it may be that it just doesn't give you the same exitement. I wonder if a standard feedback limiter combined with a more adjustable driver core would give the best of both worlds? It would alow more of the natural wildness of the sustainer to get out, the adjustable driver would help to give a similar string to string balance as with the feedforward AGC. And there would be the advantage that feedback limiter circuits tend to have have better bass response and more controllable attack and decay speeds. With the circuit I modified the attack speed can be much faster than for the feedforward version without adding distortion to the low frequencies. This makes the more synthetic features such as gentle tapping and chord holding respond much faster. I found another IC that seems like it would be a great option for AGC Its an SA572 compander chip, onsemi still manufacture it in a PDIP package, so no crazy SMD soldering to deal with. It has two channels that can be used as either expander or compressor. We could set one channel up as an expander to act as a noise gate/squelch for signals below a controllable low threshold, and the other channel would be our compressor/limiter. seems like a simple to use piece of kit with control over threshold attack and decay time... this would make the circuit easier for DIY, and it should work better with lower noise, better response and faster attack time. The expander based noise gate is significant because it allows us to have a much higher compression ratio while still being able to keep sqeal at a reasonable level. Unfortunately I cant find a uk supplier for this device so it will have to wait until i have disposable funds to justify the extra for postage and import duty etc. Edited February 7, 2007 by col Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted February 7, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 I'm using full power as well, volume is only halfway though. Was playing the sustainer this weekend, it's so friggin cool! what I love most about it, is the ferocity it has. There's surprisingly much power for such a little thing,keeping in mind it has loose cores and the coils could be potted better (the epoxy hasn't fully hardened). One thing I've noticed is that there's no real harmonic or fundamental mode...everything eventually shifts into harmonics, only in fundamental mode (or in what I suppose is fundamental mode) it just takes a bit longer. Everything below the twelfth fret shows more resilience to shiffting,too. The fact the driver sort of has a mind of it's own might seem a disadvantage, but I find it really adds to the natural feel of it, as this behavior is what I would expect from natural sustain or feedback. I got the same phenomenon on my single coil drivers as well, so it could just be that my setup lends itself to favoring harmonics. the unpredictability factor also tends to make you improvise more, which is a big plus imo. Now if I ever get round to that acg circuit...and the internal magnets...and epoxy shielding.. Yes...there is a lot to be said for the simple circuit appraoch and it would seem EMG's are a good match for the device with their wide frequency range and onboard preamp. You seem to have more of those harmonics than I do in the fundamental mode. Could be a case for switchable output caps, it sound like you have a kind of "mixed mode" there...I think that is how it is achieved...add some more cap for better bass response perhaps. I don't think it is a factor of the dual coil systems, but it is interesting that this format seems to work so well... I took out my sustainer guitar yesterday, and boy does it need some work (and a new battery). The whole guitar has gotten shifted in the move so that the action is way too low and all the frets buzz! Also, compared to my new guitar, it is a POS! With the new one, I am really favouring the neck pickup, the bridge HB sounds ok but is way out of balance volume wise with the rest of the guitar and very mid rangey, compared to the articulation you get with the single coils. Might need to get myself a super switch and try splitting the HB in various ways in combination with the other pickups and stuff to get a different range of sounds. Still...a surprising range of sounds available from one guitar...the only bad selection is the bridge HB and mid...very odd tone there. I do notice that the mid pickup is exactly where my pick falls, especially with palm muting, and having the driver close to the strings will get in the way I fear if in the mid position....hmmmm Also, the magnets in the guitar's SC pickups are alnico rods. The driver's alternating magnetic field could weaken them over time...of course they could be remagnetised, but it may be an issue. That chip looks cool col. I like the original circuit too...I can see how it could be layed out into different shapes to fit different control cavities. How I'd fit everything into my guitar with the battery is still got me thinking...shame to drill the holes and everything for switches even... Also...still concerned about the "pop" on turn off that I experience. I wonder how much the dual coil systems effect that, or if it is a factor of my particular guitar or preamp or something. The next time I do this, id like to have that kind of thing ironed out and the install process easier to understand and achieve. I suspect for instance, that most who would like to do this project won't want to be taking a router to the guitar, even for a battery box. While many guitars may have the room (les pauls, etc) most won't...col lucked out by having room in there while I, of course, routed out the whole thing! Dont really want to do that to this guitar... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtisa Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 I found another IC that seems like it would be a great option for AGC Its an SA572 compander chip, onsemi still manufacture it in a PDIP package, so no crazy SMD soldering to deal with. It has two channels that can be used as either expander or compressor. We could set one channel up as an expander to act as a noise gate/squelch for signals below a controllable low threshold, and the other channel would be our compressor/limiter. seems like a simple to use piece of kit with control over threshold attack and decay time... this would make the circuit easier for DIY, and it should work better with lower noise, better response and faster attack time. The expander based noise gate is significant because it allows us to have a much higher compression ratio while still being able to keep sqeal at a reasonable level. Unfortunately I cant find a uk supplier for this device so it will have to wait until i have disposable funds to justify the extra for postage and import duty etc. Still here, just not as often at the moment! You might find the NE570 or NE571 are easier to find and cheaper too. They're essentially the same thing with slightly lower specs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truth_David Posted February 8, 2007 Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 With the new one, I am really favouring the neck pickup, the bridge HB sounds ok but is way out of balance volume wise with the rest of the guitar and very mid rangey, compared to the articulation you get with the single coils. Might need to get myself a super switch and try splitting the HB in various ways in combination with the other pickups and stuff to get a different range of sounds. Still...a surprising range of sounds available from one guitar...the only bad selection is the bridge HB and mid...very odd tone there. Hi Pete, maybe you should have a look at this site: http://users.chariot.net.au/~gmarts/pickupme.htm I hope this will be of sufficient interest not to be considered out off subject. I am actually considering replacing the pickups in my Ibanez Prestige for a combination of Lace Sensors, but wired - if I could find how to, converse to his application - to have the pickups paired together as humbuckers. The idea is that presumably the individual pickups will sound like real Strat pickups, being single coils. Is that correct? And could you help me to plan a switching combination that would work to be able basically to have either each of the pickups working independantly, subject to the five way switch position, or in humbucking mode, plus the extra neck and bridge humbucking all four coils together? And could the same be done with normal single coils, or do they need to be Lace Sensors? Although the Ibanez is very simply wired, with just one volume and one tone and a five way switch, what I intend doing is combining the volume and tone in a single 500k concentric pot, then either fitting a rotary switch or if I can get away with it, a push push or push pull. The idea of this is to see whether the Ibanez will then work as both a Strat and PRS type of hybrid, then I can dedicate the Strat to the sustainer project thus saving myself unnecessary expense. I do notice that the mid pickup is exactly where my pick falls, especially with palm muting, and having the driver close to the strings will get in the way I fear if in the mid position....hmmmm Yes, that might be a problem for me too.... Speak soon, David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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